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How the Berserker is overpowered...

timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
really the whole thing is in a kind of grey area.

On one hand, it is not as easy to do all this as one side states it is, and there are many situations which will kill off a rambo zerker. I mean, if your using scaryghost as an example of the average zerker, I think theres something wrong

On the other hand, nutters has a valid point. He demonstrates that a zerker can acheive miracles in the right hands due to it's potential power.

So really no side is totally right here. And no one here is a troll; let's not bring fighting words into a debate here.
 

nutterbutter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
2,019
1,281
0
Unit-05 said:
You know what, Nutter? Instead of this endless loop of arguments thats going to go nowhere, I want you to play and record and show us the EXACT points you are speaking of in-game. I want you to MAKE these videos, Not link them from other people. In your videos, push the tab button, show your class, rank, and map difficulty, and show us these points you are surging so hard to prove that we are wrong of. If you do not know how, I will give you a step by step basis of how to record videos, hell, I will even upload them for you on youtube.

Prefered maps I want you to record in: bedlam and waterworks.

Also prefered: with 5 other people.
I have you on ignore. If you wonder why, check your other replies to my posts but since scary ghost quoted you, I saw your post.

Have you actually read my original post? Because you are asking me to post a video showing...

1) The zerker running away from specimens
2) The zerker attacking quicker than other perks (attack speed perk)
3) The zerker getting the katana in the next wave
4) The zerker not buying ammo
5) The zerker gaining cash
6) Showing the katana doesn't use ammo
7) Showing the katana can't be reloaded
8) Continually swinging a melee weapon without ever tiring
9) Other players shooting the zerker and the zerker not taking damage
10) The zerker being generally the last to die in a group
11) The zerker not immediately dying when a couple sirens attack or the bloat spewing on him
12) The clot not being able to grab the zerker

Sounds like a boring video that anyone with a couple dozen hours of exp could make.

Just about everyone is putting the cart before the horse. Just about everyone is thinking that I am saying that because the zerker /can/ solo 80+ suicidal specimens that makes him OP. I'm not. Because the zerker /can get to that point in the game consistently/ is what reveals him to be OP. The zerker has no disadvantages. That is what makes him OP. That the zerker + m79 makes a better demo than a demo with an m79. That is what makes him OP. The zerker's perk proper means all of the litte disadvantages of the unperked weapon can easily be dealt with by the zerker's perks proper.

This is why I liked Dead :('s post so much. Rather than just say 'Zerker isn't overpowered', he actually listed disadvantages of the zerker. While I disagreed with 80% of what he typed, the point is that he understood the OP argument was the building of the case and not because scary ghost can solo 80+ suicidal specimens. So he did the intelligent thing and attacked each building block rather than the whole.





So, to make things fair, I thought I would check the other ignored users in this thread an I found this absolute gem by evilsod.

evilsod said:
The update isn't even public yet but somehow he also thinks he can comment on the number of zerkers people use?
The reason why I have you on ignore is because you reply only with insults others and to threadcrap.

But yes, I can comment on the number of zerkers people use because I'm in the beta and I can post what I see other do.




timur said:
On one hand, it is not as easy to do all this as one side states it is, and there are many situations which will kill off a rambo zerker. I mean, if your using scaryghost as an example of the average zerker, I think theres something wrong

On the other hand, nutters has a valid point. He demonstrates that a zerker can acheive miracles in the right hands due to it's potential power.
Think of it this way. Let's make a "line of death" and put impossible situations on the right end and bad choices on the left. Every player will die due to bad choices and every player will die in impossible situations. As players play, they will die almost always due to bad decisions. But as they get better, the game will start popping them with bad spawns and combinations. This moves their place on the line will move more and more to the right. Eventually there will be an equilibrium on the line for each perk and the perk farthest on the right is for zerker. Now add a player like scary ghost or devante and that dot goes to the edge. Those player only die if they just get either popped with a terrible spawn or if they make a bad choice. If they make correct decisions then they stay alive. Rather that dealing with the specimens in the order the specimens show up, zerkers, more often than not, can shape the battle to fight the specimen they want in the order they want. Now, there are very few zerkers as skilled as scary ghost and devante (I'm certainly not), but there are many that are quite skilled and often "quite skilled" is enough to exploit the OP'ness.

Again, my argument isn't because the zerker can solo 80+ suicidal specimens he is OP. Because the zerker is the only perk /that can consistently get to that point/ shows that he is OP. Of course, because some zerkers can finish that scenario only add to the argument.
 

timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
I have you on ignore. If you wonder why, check your other replies to my posts but since scary ghost quoted you, I saw your post.

Have you actually read my original post? Because you are asking me to post a video showing...

1) The zerker running away from specimens
2) The zerker attacking quicker than other perks (attack speed perk)
3) The zerker getting the katana in the next wave
4) The zerker not buying ammo
5) The zerker gaining cash
6) Showing the katana doesn't use ammo
7) Showing the katana can't be reloaded
8) Continually swinging a melee weapon without ever tiring
9) Other players shooting the zerker and the zerker not taking damage
10) The zerker being generally the last to die in a group
11) The zerker not immediately dying when a couple sirens attack or the bloat spewing on him
12) The clot not being able to grab the zerker

Sounds like a boring video that anyone with a couple dozen hours of exp could make.

Just about everyone is putting the cart before the horse. Just about everyone is thinking that I am saying that because the zerker /can/ solo 80+ suicidal specimens that makes him OP. I'm not. Because the zerker /can get to that point in the game consistently/ is what reveals him to be OP. The zerker has no disadvantages. That is what makes him OP. That the zerker + m79 makes a better demo than a demo with an m79. That is what makes him OP. The zerker's perk proper means all of the litte disadvantages of the unperked weapon can easily be dealt with by the zerker's perks proper.

This is why I liked Dead :('s post so much. Rather than just say 'Zerker isn't overpowered', he actually listed disadvantages of the zerker. While I disagreed with 80% of what he typed, the point is that he understood the OP argument was the building of the case and not because scary ghost can solo 80+ suicidal specimens. So he did the intelligent thing and attacked each building block rather than the whole.





So, to make things fair, I thought I would check the other ignored users in this thread an I found this absolute gem by evilsod.



The reason why I have you on ignore is because you reply only with insults others and to threadcrap.

But yes, I can comment on the number of zerkers people use because I'm in the beta and I can post what I see other do.






Think of it this way. Let's make a "line of death" and put impossible situations on the right end and bad choices on the left. Every player will die due to bad choices and every player will die in impossible situations. As players play, they will die almost always due to bad decisions. But as they get better, the game will start popping them with bad spawns and combinations. This moves their place on the line will move more and more to the right. Eventually there will be an equilibrium on the line for each perk and the perk farthest on the right is for zerker. Now add a player like scary ghost or devante and that dot goes to the edge. Those player only die if they just get either popped with a terrible spawn or if they make a bad choice. If they make correct decisions then they stay alive. Rather that dealing with the specimens in the order the specimens show up, zerkers, more often than not, can shape the battle to fight the specimen they want in the order they want. Now, there are very few zerkers as skilled as scary ghost and devante (I'm certainly not), but there are many that are quite skilled and often "quite skilled" is enough to exploit the OP'ness.

Again, my argument isn't because the zerker can solo 80+ suicidal specimens he is OP. Because the zerker is the only perk /that can consistently get to that point/ shows that he is OP. Of course, because some zerkers can finish that scenario only add to the argument.
why thank you nutters, I was worried by the ignoring that you had gotten into a three-on-one personal debate again. Now it feels like an open thread.:D

However, I am afraid you didn't quite get my point. The point is that there is a sort of umm.....exaggeration about the amount of successful master-zerkers; and also about how simple a specific scenario is. A zerker is often not just dealing with a single situation in a single direction, but rather a number of threats from multiple angles. The zerker tactics often fail because of this.

However, I do agree that a master zerker can use the survivability vital to the perk's close-encounter nature to escape scenarios few others could. But the nature of the perk also puts him in a higher number of them, to be fair.

The main problem here is solutions. Those proposed would stop the master-zerker's OP-power, but at what price? The zerker has the potential to be overpowered, but that potential originates from the very things that make the perk playable in the first place. In order to properly get at the problem, one must come up with a craftier solution. But instead, all of you guys prefer to sit around calling each other trolls and restating points.

Well, in the meantime, I'll start thinking of an answer. However, feel free to disagree; its what a discussion is for!
 

FlakAttack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
40
35
0
So your point is that zerkers aren't supposed to take point in dealing with fleshpounds and scrakes?

Interesting.
I didn't say anything about scrakes. I bolded fleshpounds.

Berzerkers deal with scrakes easily enough, and that is to be expected, they can stun them with melee (and infact, it was suggested on these forums that only berzerkers should be able to stun scrakes, so if you feel that is OP you should blame virtually every poster here)

Berzerker can solo one fleshpound, if he's lucky. That's it. Try soloing two of them on a 6-suicidal. You're dead. A berzerker shouldn't be taking point against FPs, he should be clearing the path so the sharpshooter has a clean shot.

I'm still of the opinion that you're either a troll or just stupid nutter, and I really don't think you contribute anything to the forums. I mean really, if there was an Encyclopedia Dramatica article about the Killing Floor forums, one of the ways listed to troll them would be to mention "Berzerker is OP" because EVERYONE knows that's not true.

On the other hand, nutters has a valid point. He demonstrates that a zerker can acheive miracles in the right hands due to it's potential power.
How does he demonstrate anything? I'm with Unit here, I want to see proof the zerker is so OP.

Nutter, you're telling us you have all these arguments as to why the zerker is OP, yet everyone else with experience playing this game is telling you that's simply not true. The burden of proof lies on you Nutter, and I know for a fact you can't deliver.
 
Last edited:

timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
How does he demonstrate anything? I'm with Unit here, I want to see proof the zerker is so OP.

Nutter, you're telling us you have all these arguments as to why the zerker is OP, yet everyone else with experience playing this game is telling you that's simply not true. The burden of proof lies on you Nutter, and I know for a fact you can't deliver.
I'm not saying zerker is totally OP. Just what I posted.

And that is how it is the easiest perk to become somewhat OP; I mean, I could solo a great deal of specimens on HoE, and I'm not exactly scaryghost. However, I disagree strongly with the theoretical solutions earlier in the post.

I mean, the whole 'OMG the sky is falling, zerker is way OP, nerf now!' attitude is totally inappropriate, but nutters still has a point. It just so happens to apply to a minority who know how to proper.

On the bright side, the 1-stun scrake effect promises to bring scrakes into the zerkers range of threats, so don't get your knickers in a twist.
 

Salad Snake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 2, 2010
875
148
0
30
Honolulu, Hawaii
On the other hand, nutters has a valid point. He demonstrates that a zerker can acheive miracles in the right hands due to it's potential power.
So what? Why are we arguing about what 1 in 1000 players can sometimes achieve? Even if so, who cares? What, are we going to call Quake's railgun OP too? Played perfectly, maybe Zerker does have the highest potential, but players aren't supercomputers, they make mistakes.

That's like saying Basketball is an imbalanced game because it only matters who grabs the ball first, if we assume each team makes a 3-point shot every single possession the game is decided by who gained possession first. Obviously this is not the case, as players miss shots.


Edit: Another, probably better analogy: If Chess was found to have a small imbalance at the Grandmaster level, would it matter? Would you sacrifice some of the enjoyment of the millions of average Chess players worldwide just to block an overpowered tactic at the Grandmaster level?
 
Last edited:

nutterbutter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
2,019
1,281
0
The main problem here is solutions. Those proposed would stop the master-zerker's OP-power, but at what price? The zerker has the potential to be overpowered, but that potential originates from the very things that make the perk playable in the first place. In order to properly get at the problem, one must come up with a craftier solution.
Solutions don't have to be classic nerfing as in 'katana does 40% less damage' because that doesn't actually solve the problem. The zerker needs /some/ disadvantages.

Here are some suggestions (with reasoning in parens)

Higher perked weapon costs (No top tier weapons simply by logging in)
No autofire for edged weapons (Because it is just silly and every other perk has to judge when to fire)
Inability to fire with absolutely no pauses infinitely (The ability to run forward or backwards while creating a continual wall of death doesn't make sense)
Lower carrying capacity (They are melee oriented right?)
Some type of fatigue meter (Again, being able to attack indefinitely is silly)
Friendly fire (This would keep the zerker from having the entire team cover him while he fights recklessly)
Inability to equip armor (He is speed related, yes?)

The zerker needs some disadvantages and right now, he doesn't have any.




I didn't say anything about scrakes. I bolded fleshpounds.
You quoted "they should and are supposed to charge fleshpounds and scrakes." You emphasized "fleshpounds". If you want to quote something, then just quote what you wanted to quote.

Berzerker can solo one fleshpound, if he's lucky. That's it. Try soloing two of them on a 6-suicidal. You're dead. A berzerker shouldn't be taking point against FPs, he should be clearing the path so the sharpshooter has a clean shot.
That is why a zerker doesn't solo two FPs at the same time. Luckily, his speed allows the zerker to generally shape the battle as he wants. As for " clearing the path so the sharpshooter", you play your way, and I'll play my way. In 99% of the games I've been in, the rest of the team kills off the little things so the zerker can fight the FP and scrake without being nipped to death. Other than reinstituting the grenade into the game, I don't see how the new balance changes alter that strategy.

BTW, any decent sharpie with the xbow doesn't need a clean shot. I've got no problem aiming through a clot, gorefast, or any other specimen to HS a FP. The bolt penetrates.


I'm still of the opinion that you're either a troll or just stupid nutter, and I really don't think you contribute anything to the forums.
Tell you what. You compare your accusations and insults to everything I have said on this forum and then you tell me who is engaging in trollish or stupid behavior.

How does he demonstrate anything? I'm with Unit here, I want to see proof the zerker is so OP.
I've listed my reasons. You can either agree or disagree with me. I'm fine with either.

Nutter, you're telling us you have all these arguments as to why the zerker is OP, yet everyone else with experience playing this game is telling you that's simply not true. The burden of proof lies on you Nutter, and I know for a fact you can't deliver.
Well, if everyone with experience disagrees with me and you know for a fact that I am wrong, then why are you in this thread? You've said your peace. I understand that you disagree with me. If you want to join in the discussion, then let's have your opinion and reasonings. I'd love to hear them. But if all you are going to do is randomly create sentences with 'no', 'troll', 'stupid', 'wrong', and 'not' then just go away. Everyone knows your opinion. No reason to just say it over and over again.






So what? Why are we arguing about what 1 in 1000 players can sometimes achieve?
nutterbutter said:
Just about everyone is putting the cart before the horse. Just about everyone is thinking that I am saying that because the zerker /can/ solo 80+ suicidal specimens that makes him OP. I'm not. Because the zerker /can get to that point in the game consistently/ is what reveals him to be OP. The zerker has no disadvantages. That is what makes him OP. That the zerker + m79 makes a better demo than a demo with an m79. That is what makes him OP. The zerker's perk proper means all of the litte disadvantages of the unperked weapon can easily be dealt with by the zerker's perks proper.
Again, the outcome of the zerker being OP means that he can solo 80+ specimens on solo. The outcome. The outcome.


That's like saying Basketball is an imbalanced game because it only matters who grabs the ball first, if we assume each team makes a 3-point shot every single possession the game is decided by who gained possession first. Obviously this is not the case, as players miss shots.
No. However, if we change the rules to "You make it, you take it" and then give one side enough speed and skills so they get an uncontested layup each possession, then that is a better analogy. Occasionally they may miss a layout, but most of the time they won't.
 

[UIT] Akame

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
1,280
129
0
My own personal hell
While the zerker is generally judged to be underpowered because most people play the perk poorly (I know how that is since I play firebug quite often and have since retail), but to contend that it is overpowered is far fetched at best. Everything that is listed is indeed a strength of the zerker and he has no weaknesses that other perks have that are not remedied by a strength of the zerker. However he also lacks some serious strengths of other perks.
Point - Counterpoint

Speed - Agreed, but necessary for zerker not to die every round

Quickness - This is BS. Zerker is the slowest to react to a specimen since you have to be at melee range to attack a spec. He is hardly the only perk that can hit specs before they hit him, or do ranged attacks not count?

Cheap Weapons - True but at level 6 every perk gets super weapons way before they are necessary so it doesn't mean much other than you have extra money to buy relevant non-perk ranged weapons.

No ammo cost - You state that part of the reason zerker is good is integration of ranged weapons. This point is both weak and wrong.

Light weapons - Weapons are light so you can carry expensive, heavy non-perk weapons.

Zerker's ability to apply damage does not diminish over time - A reasonable player should no problems with running out of ammo with most perks. They have all been build to have sufficient ammo to do your job for the round and then some.

No reload/fatigue - This is a big thing that help zerker be good. Agreed.

No FF - This helps zerker but the point is only really "zerker sucks with FF," not any relevant point since a lot of perk suck with FF and the game was not build to properly deal with FF as a game mechanic.

Suvivability - The chance of you surviving the wipe is good but the chance of finishing the wave if this happens ranges from decent (2 players) to highly unlikely (6 players). The survivability is more of a side effect of zerker needing to not die when facing more than one spec at melee range.

Resistances - It helps but again is mostly a symptom of him being actually playable.

Clot grip - By far the best bonus a zerker has and a must to keep him relevant.

I'll add a point of my own:

Zerker has little flexibility in dealing with threats. Once committed to a threat, the zerker may have to travel some distance and encounter additional threats on the way. Basically you can't turn and shoot, then change targets as much as other perks.

Still I'm glad that some people can see that zerker isn't inherently a bad perk. Just that it isn't any more OP than any other perk.
 
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Spicy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 8, 2010
1,219
162
0
32
New England, the Newer England
To be honest, I could live with a more expensive Fire Axe, Katana or Chainsaw. Ditto for a reduced weight carry. Might not like it at first, but I'd adapt since I don't utilize the full carry weight as a Berserker anyway. Reduce it from 15 to 12?

As far as gas or fatigue go, I know L4D2 has a fuel meter for its chainsaw and once it's out it's useless. Natural Selection's Kharaa (aliens) are melee oriented and have a recharging energy meter that is consumed whenever they bite/ slash or use other abilities. If fatigue were to be instituted, would you go the recharging meter route?

If nothing else, Nutter's suggestions make for a neat thought experiment, so just treat it as that. :)
 

FlakAttack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
40
35
0
You quoted "they should and are supposed to charge fleshpounds and scrakes." You emphasized "fleshpounds". If you want to quote something, then just quote what you wanted to quote.
This isn't an HTML or English class Nutter, attacking vocabulary will accomplish nothing.

That is why a zerker doesn't solo two FPs at the same time. Luckily, his speed allows the zerker to generally shape the battle as he wants.
Misunderstanding here, what I meant was if a zerker tries to solo two FPs in the same round, he's dead. The first one destroys your armor, and second will finish you, even at full HP. This is less of a problem on large maps but in confined spaces you don't have much hope.

Well, if everyone with experience disagrees with me and you know for a fact that I am wrong, then why are you in this thread? You've said your peace. I understand that you disagree with me. If you want to join in the discussion, then let's have your opinion and reasonings. I'd love to hear them. But if all you are going to do is randomly create sentences with 'no', 'troll', 'stupid', 'wrong', and 'not' then just go away. Everyone knows your opinion. No reason to just say it over and over again.
You have been proven wrong by quite a few people in this thread, and all you have to say to them is "I disagree" (if you don't just ignore them completely because they're on your steadily growing ignore list). We all know your position on this Nutter, you made the thread. No reason to just say it over and over again.
 

nutterbutter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
2,019
1,281
0
Point - Counterpoint

Speed - Agreed, but necessary for zerker not to die every round

Quickness - This is BS. Zerker is the slowest to react to a specimen since you have to be at melee range to attack a spec. He is hardly the only perk that can hit specs before they hit him, or do ranged attacks not count?

Cheap Weapons - True but at level 6 every perk gets super weapons way before they are necessary so it doesn't mean much other than you have extra money to buy relevant non-perk ranged weapons.

No ammo cost - You state that part of the reason zerker is good is integration of ranged weapons. This point is both weak and wrong.

Light weapons - Weapons are light so you can carry expensive, heavy non-perk weapons.

Zerker's ability to apply damage does not diminish over time - A reasonable player should no problems with running out of ammo with most perks. They have all been build to have sufficient ammo to do your job for the round and then some.

No reload/fatigue - This is a big thing that help zerker be good. Agreed.

No FF - This helps zerker but the point is only really "zerker sucks with FF," not any relevant point since a lot of perk suck with FF and the game was not build to properly deal with FF as a game mechanic.

Suvivability - The chance of you surviving the wipe is good but the chance of finishing the wave if this happens ranges from decent (2 players) to highly unlikely (6 players). The survivability is more of a side effect of zerker needing to not die when facing more than one spec at melee range.

Resistances - It helps but again is mostly a symptom of him being actually playable.

Clot grip - By far the best bonus a zerker has and a must to keep him relevant.
Excellent post. My reply...

Speed - I agree 100%. Zerker should be the fastest of all of the perks. I'm simply asking for some type of balance to the speed. Not being able to run at the fully accelerated speed all of the time. Lower carrying capacity which explains the faster speed. Maybe no armor? Some things like that.

Quickness - I disagree with the "have to be at melee range" argument. Melee gets much faster attacks with melee weapons (which they should) and that allows for faster attacks when a specimen is RIGHT THERE. Reaction time to a specimen 20 feet away really isn't "reaction time", is it?

Cheap Weapons - That was my point. Zerker gets his top tier weapons first trader wave and that is all the money they have to spend. Every other perk, other than flamer, has to save and budget for their more powerful weapons.

No ammo cost - I said "No ammo cost unless required." If a zerker doesn't want to buy ammo, he doesn't need to. When I play sharpie, I have to buy 9mm, cannon, and xbow/m79/whatever else ammo every wave. Zerker doesn't unless he wants to. Add in that it doesn't cost the zerker any money to kill anything with a perked weapon.

Light weapons - Exactly. Other perks don't have that huge advantage.

Damage doesn't diminish - Yes and no. A player who properly husbands his ammo will have no problem in a normal wave when everyone stays alive, sure. But what does that really mean? A sharpie will be using the 9mm, cannon, and m14 or xbow ammo. A commando will be using bullpup or ak and scar. Support will be using a combo of shotgun, hunty, and aa12. Firebug will be using MAC10 and flamer. Demo will be using m79 and m32. Now, what if the wave stretches out because players die? Players will run out of ammo and they do run out of ammo all of the time. (BTW, I hate that players can stockpile weapons on the deck) So they have to pick up unperked weapons or use less powerful perked weapons. Not the zerker. The zerker puts out full damage with his perked weapons from specimen 1 to the last specimen no matter how many specimens there were or how many times the zerker fires.

No reload/fatigue - I'm not sure of your opinion here. I do know that not having to ever pause while spamming is a huge benefit.

No FF - Mainly the zerker sucks with FF because with FF every player is effectively covering the zerker when the zerker runs into the crowd. No FF allows everyone to play sloppily and that benefits the zerker the most. Zerker can actually run out of crowd when he gets into trouble. Game deals with FF just fine. It is off by default.

Survivability - Sure, but the other perks have no chance to survive. I'm not saying they should either.

Resistances - Zerker should have the best resistances.

Clot grip - Sure. He shouldn't be able to be grabbed by clots. I still think that other perks being unable to break grip by jumping is game breaking. I was playing HoE the other day and I was running from an FP and scrake. A bloat and 3 clots spawned in front of me. Know the most dangerous specimen in that scenario? The clots. I had less than a second to pull of 4 perfect headshots with 4 shots of 3 clots and then the bloat. If I miss any of those shots I die. I missed the third clot HS (I popped his head back, but no HS), bloat spewed, clot held, scrake caught up. Unbreakable clot grab is gamebreaking.

I'll add a point of my own:

Zerker has little flexibility in dealing with threats. Once committed to a threat, the zerker may have to travel some distance and encounter additional threats on the way. Basically you can't turn and shoot, then change targets as much as other perks.

Still I'm glad that some people can see that zerker isn't inherently a bad perk. Just that it isn't any more OP than any other perk.
A zerker isn't really /committed/ to dealing with a specimen some distance away. While the zerker does have to get close to use perked weapons and every zerker I have ever played with carries many ranged weapons, the zerker can also buy time and in this game, time means health.






To be honest, I could live with a more expensive Fire Axe, Katana or Chainsaw. Ditto for a reduced weight carry. Might not like it at first, but I'd adapt since I don't utilize the full carry weight as a Berserker anyway. Reduce it from 15 to 12?
I'd even go more sever than that. Zerker is supposed to be light and fast right? Perked weapons + sidearms only.


As far as gas or fatigue go, I know L4D2 has a fuel meter for its chainsaw and once it's out it's useless. Natural Selection's Kharaa (aliens) are melee oriented and have a recharging energy meter that is consumed whenever they bite/ slash or use other abilities. If fatigue were to be instituted, would you go the recharging meter route?
Something like that. Just anything to keep the zerker from spamming fire, which is exactly what they can do, from the start of the wave till the last specimen is dead. You have no idea how much I abhor the ability for the zerker to stand on the side of the door while every specimen simply walks into a zone of mindless, mouse-button-holding-down zone of death.

With the resurgence of the chainsaw, the ammo boxes should provide fuel.

If nothing else, Nutter's suggestions make for a neat thought experiment, so just treat it as that. :)
Thanks.




This isn't an HTML or English class Nutter, attacking vocabulary will accomplish nothing.
First off, I didn't attack you. If you want examples of attacking, check out your replies. Second, quote what you mean to quote. I didn't comment on your English, grammar, or punctuation. I don't do that.


Misunderstanding here, what I meant was if a zerker tries to solo two FPs in the same round, he's dead. The first one destroys your armor, and second will finish you, even at full HP. This is less of a problem on large maps but in confined spaces you don't have much hope.
Sure, on small spaces there is less of a chance. But there is a good chance. With every other perk, other than support (if he still has grenades which will run out) and demo, there is no chance. And demo won't survive the attacks from the other specimens.

So while there is a chance for zerker, there isn't a chance for the other perks (other than medic with armor). Add in that the zerker has the ability to shape what attacks and when, he chances are easily best.


You have been proven wrong by quite a few people in this thread, and all you have to say to them is "I disagree" (if you don't just ignore them completely because they're on your steadily growing ignore list). We all know your position on this Nutter, you made the thread. No reason to just say it over and over again.
I haven't been proven wrong. A few people disagree with me and that's cool. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. BTW, nice passive aggressive comment on me ignoring others who simply want to start fights in threads. And that is why I am going to stop this discussion with you about this thread. If you want to talk about the zerker being OP or not OP, then I will be more than happy to discuss that with you. If you want to continue to insult and comment just about me or the thread, I won't reply.
 

timur

FNG / Fresh Meat
So what? Why are we arguing about what 1 in 1000 players can sometimes achieve? Even if so, who cares? What, are we going to call Quake's railgun OP too? Played perfectly, maybe Zerker does have the highest potential, but players aren't supercomputers, they make mistakes.

That's like saying Basketball is an imbalanced game because it only matters who grabs the ball first, if we assume each team makes a 3-point shot every single possession the game is decided by who gained possession first. Obviously this is not the case, as players miss shots.


Edit: Another, probably better analogy: If Chess was found to have a small imbalance at the Grandmaster level, would it matter? Would you sacrifice some of the enjoyment of the millions of average Chess players worldwide just to block an overpowered tactic at the Grandmaster level?
That's what I'm saying: we need to remember that insanely good zerkers are in the minority, which is why I personally see this as less of a priority
 

EonSeig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 13, 2010
260
93
0
Florida
I haven't been proven wrong. A few people disagree with me and that's cool.
The vast majority of the forums don't agree with you, Nutter. If your forum rating is any indication, nearly everyone hates you so much they want to have you permanently banned. In fact, the only notable person on the whole forum who even seems to agree with you on any point is Scary_Ghost, and he's the only person here besides Devante that has any right at all to agree with you. He's the only guy I know of that's good enough at Berserker to say that you're correct about anything. 99% of all other KF players aren't.

Me? I'm neutral. I'm not an epic Berserker like Ghost is, so I don't have any business trying to debate with you.
 

nutterbutter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
2,019
1,281
0
The vast majority of the forums don't agree with you, Nutter. If your forum rating is any indication, nearly everyone hates you so much they want to have you permanently banned.
Actually forum rating is just the same few people clicking the '-' sign on my messages. How do I know it is the same few people? Because the overwhelmingly ratings on my messages are '0 of 2 members like this post.' Forum ratings are easily skewed.

You should also learn to discern disagreement from hate.

TheIn fact, the only notable person on the whole forum who even seems to agree with you on any point is Scary_Ghost, and he's the only person here besides Devante that has any right at all to agree with you. He's the only guy I know of that's good enough at Berserker to say that you're correct about anything. 99% of all other KF players aren't.
Everyone has a right to agree or disagree with me. Everyone's opinion is valid and should be considered.


Me? I'm neutral. I'm not an epic Berserker like Ghost is, so I don't have any business trying to debate with you.
You have every right to debate with me. I'm interested in hearing your opinions.
 

CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,408
1,060
0
VIC
If you're a good enough Berserker to make Killing Floor laughably easy on any difficulty, then you've earnt it.

That's the same as a godly Sharpshooter outperforming a M14 spamshooter pre-1014. If you've gotten good enough at the perk, you deserve to be rewarded for it.

I guess it's like me with Medic, i've gotten good with it and can usually hit teammates out to a good distance with the MP7; factoring in dart velocity, latency, predictability of team movement, jumping and such.

This would be similar to nerfing all the other Medics just to make it harder for me. I'm sure not everyone would appreciate that.
 

Evilsod

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 20, 2009
884
137
0
Ylivieska, Finland
Nutter nobody could crap in your thread more than you do yourself...

But then you add anyone to ignore who disagrees with you and eventually gets bored of repeating themselves so go figure. I'm still seeing the same points here that have been refuted about 500 times but you choose to ignore them. The fact you feel the need to respond to everything with 5 page long multi quotes really says it all as thats mostly the trademark of a troll argueing for the sake of it.

I'm waiting for him to take unit up on his request (oh wait no he put him on ignore because he wanted direct evidence from the horses mouth which he knew couldn't be provided) and to produce his own video. Even if its speccing people in game. Scary posted 1 but as he said, its solo which gives 50hp heals and he's also 1 of the better Zerkers in the game. So when we get multiple cases of Zerkers being 'overpowered' you might have valid points other than overexaggerating rubbish.
 

Foreordinator

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 11, 2010
12
1
0
Adelaide
I've listed my reasons and once again, it isn't /one single reason./ It is that zerker has no disadvantages.
This is where I disagree Nutters. The disadvantages should be relatively obvious.

I will admit that running around with a katana and a xbow does seem op as a zerker. But now I don't think, apart from the chainsaw, which could use a buff, that the zerker is overpowered or underpowered, it's just right in my opinion if those aforementioned points were addressed.

Yes the berserker can use other weapons (albeit unperked) although, so can any other class, so I fail to see why this would contribute to making the class op, you could say the same thing about zerdicks running around with katanas or m79s.

If someone chooses to play such a class and use weapons outside of it's intended role then they have to do so with no perk bonuses, so fair trade in my opinion as it still resides within the game mechanics and they may be trying to make up for what the team might be lacking even if only marginally.

If they manage to do it awesomely? Then half their luck. If they are a zerker for example, then they are trading their damage bonuses for a speed and damage resistance bonus instead, if using non-melee weapons.

It seems balanced to me and feels like it's working as intended. We may just have to agree to disagree.
 

FlakAttack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
40
35
0
The vast majority of the forums don't agree with you, Nutter. If your forum rating is any indication, nearly everyone hates you so much they want to have you permanently banned. In fact, the only notable person on the whole forum who even seems to agree with you on any point is Scary_Ghost, and he's the only person here besides Devante that has any right at all to agree with you. He's the only guy I know of that's good enough at Berserker to say that you're correct about anything. 99% of all other KF players aren't.

Me? I'm neutral. I'm not an epic Berserker like Ghost is, so I don't have any business trying to debate with you.
Unit-05 is actually just damn good at the game in general, but as a berzerker and firebug he is among the best. I would consider what he had to say as well when making a judgement.