How the Berserker is overpowered...

[nutterbutter]

Before I go into this, a few caveats first.

1) Just to keep from typing ",along with the medic," over and over again, when I type "only zerker has the speed to...", just insert ",along with the medic," as well.

2) I am assuming competent players, tactics, and decisions. I don't expect or require anyone to do anything suicidal or idiotic.

3) Of course everything in here is my opinion.

That being said, let's go.


The biggest reason why Berserker is overpowered is he doesn't have any weaknesses or disadvantages.

Advantages:

1) Speed. This is one of the biggest advantages. This allows the zerker to generally get out of trouble when he needs to and allows him to kite scores of enemies. The zerker can run from every specimen in the game and build life saving distance.

2) Quickness. Zerker can counterpunch better than any other perk. The Zerker can react to an attack from a specimen and hit the specimen before the specimen hits him. Increasing the level only makes this faster.

3) Cheap weapons. Zerker gets his top tiered weapons the very next wave he plays.

4) No ammo cost unless required. Berserker can go the entire game without spending a single pound on ammo if he wants.

4) Abundance of cash. Since the berserker doesn't need to purchase ammo on a regular basis, the zerker can afford to purchase and reload any weapon.

5) Lightweight weapons. The chainsaw is heavy, but the axe and the katana aren't. Katana allows plenty of room for additional specialized weapons such as LAR & M79.

6) No ammo limit. Melee weapons are always full damage weapons no matter how often they are used. No requirement to run for ammo. No having to use a lower tier weapon

7) No reloading. Berserker doesn't have those awkward pauses when he has to stop firing.

8) No fatigue either. Berserker can backup and continually fire along with the incredibly game-breaking strategy of simply standing at the side of a door and continually firing in front of the door while specimens mindlessly walk into damage.

9) No friendly fire. Berserker can simply wade info a group of specimens 30 feet into front of everyone else and everyone else provides intelligent "cover fire." If a zerker is close to dying, any other player can toss a couple grenades or unload an entire mag at the zerker to save him.

10) Survivability. This is huge. If the rest of a team wipes out, who is left 90% of the time? The berzerker. 9%? Medic. 1% the lucky perk who hasn't gotten popped but who's slowness will get him killed in under 20 seconds. Add in the fact that only the berserker can now solo the suicidal lvl 6 FP and generally the scrake.

11) Resistances. Not only is the zerker fast enough to dodge the husk, sirens, and bloats, if he does get hit, the damage is lessened.

12) No "Magnetic Clot Grip

 

[EonSeig]

The Berserker's weakness should be that he is an entire rock, paper, scissors game by himself. Most perks use only one category of weapon, all members of which are extremely similar and do nearly the same job. Support uses shotguns and all shotguns are pretty much the same in terms of their strength's and limitations. Demolition is always subject to the limitations of explosives. Commando can never overcome the disadvantages of assault rifles. The Berserker in a perfect world has three weapons which do different jobs and using any one of them exposes the perk to a different set of advantages and disadvantages.

The "OP" Berserker of the pre-beta only uses one weapon; katana. The Katana is universally effective against every ZED of every type, and only slightly less effective against crawlers. Beta wave 2 is still pretty much the same, but now the Berserker is half as strong with every melee weapon compared to before.

Berserker's weakness should be that he is required to pick a specific weapon to deal with a specific threat. If you pick katana, you want to clearcut the horde. If you pick the axe, you want to chop down the big dudes. If you pick chainsaw (which is currently the stupidest thing any berserker can do right now) you intend to stand in one spot and make yourself an impassible barrier of whirring teeth.

These are the reasons why, as of wave 2 beta, that idea doesn't work.

1. The katana is the most powerful melee weapon that lets you run full speed. It cuts down large groups easily, which is obviously the berserker's most noble quest in life. With it, you can make Scrakes completely helpless. A Berserker using the Katana is basically completely invulnerable to Scrakes unless he's surrounded by crawlers. With no other weapon is this true. Only the chainsaw comes close to being so good at killing Scrakes, but due to how much slower its alt-fire is you have several more openings for the Scrake to hit you at least once.

2. The Axe is only useful for killing Fleshpounds. Though this is enough to ensure that Berserkers "should" use it, it doesn't make it useful enough that a Berserker will bring it out for any other situation what so ever. Even in killing Husks and Sirens, it doesn't have a meaningful advantage. Katana can do pretty much everything the Axe can and be more versatile to boot. I barely ever notice the second hit it takes me to finish these ZEDs off. Most of the time I still kill them with minimal damage.

3. The chainsaw is bad because the Berserker is not built to tank. The damage resistance is a massive red herring. You only have damage resistance as a supplement to your speed, and speed is the Berserker's REAL power. Your job is not to stand in the cluster**** and take hits. This is a fencing match, not a strongman competition. Pretty much everything in a suicidal game will still rip you in half in a very short time if you don't get the hell out of the way. The chainsaw absolutely forbids you from using your most important ability, and that is why it is bad.

Berserker is not OP. Katana is just his only good and universally reliable weapon. If I have to put it into an extremely simple analogy, axe is rock, chainsaw is paper, just about every ZED is scissors, and the Katana is TNT.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Hmmm... it is a sound explanation tbh. I have to admit I haven't recently played Zerker, but I do remember that he didn't operate well as a tank for damage. The best way to play him was to ensure you killed Zeds without getting hit. Played properly he was a difficult but well balanced class.

Now he is pretty damned resilliant and powerful (To the degree you explained). Mind you the back to front damage fix for the melee wepaons has been fixed now in the Beta and from what I understand the power of the Zerker has been drastically reduced.

May need to get someone who has played it more to answer, but as far as I understand it the Zerker is still rather hard to play, since he cannot reliably kill even gorefasts now. It is an interesting one, good debate dude

 

[Evilsod]

I'm sure we've already seen this thread in the form of a very long, drawn out and utterly ridiculous argument you refused to let up in the Zerker thread even after everyone could see you were literally talking from your backside...

And really, you've only continued with your ridiculously biased view here. Didn't you get a clue from last time?

Not forgetting your list of 'advantages', conveniently forgetting that absolutely all of them are entirely subjective. Perhaps we should nerf every perk until they are forking out 800 per wave for ammo like a Demo? Unless you want to do something so utterly retarded as adding durability to weapons so they need repairing, how exactly should ammo be relevant to a Zerker? Not to mention the Xbow now costs significantly more than it used to and i'm sure teammates would be glad of any spare money you have...

Crawlers are more of a threat to other perks than the Zerker? Get real.
If Sirens or Husks target you then big deal, the damage is lessened... clearly forgetting that other perks don't have to go NEAR the Husk or Siren to kill them.

I don't know what maps you play but enemies don't approach the Zerker 1 at a time, spaced far enough apart that you can engage them all without any interference from the others with Husks casually watching you from the distance. You get 4 Crawlers with a mix of Gorefasts and Clots blocking clear shots or Husks and Sirens hidden behind a wave of specimens, all of them you have to combat, ultimately, at melee range, where you have to give up space and dance around to fight things in a safe order, which most maps don't really allow you to do.

I could go on but if the last time this was all said is anything to go by you won't listen anyway...

 

[nutterbutter]

Didn't you get a clue from last time?

I do now. Ignored. Bye-bye.

 

[Evilsod]

I do now. Ignored. Bye-bye.

If you think i'm going to miss you spewing your usual bull**** in response to everything then you are sorely mistaken.

 

[Salad Snake]

I'm sure we've already seen this thread in the form of a very long, drawn out and utterly ridiculous argument you refused to let up in the Zerker thread even after everyone could see you were literally talking from your backside...

And really, you've only continued with your ridiculously biased view here. Didn't you get a clue from last time?

Not forgetting your list of 'advantages', conveniently forgetting that absolutely all of them are entirely subjective. Perhaps we should nerf every perk until they are forking out 800 per wave for ammo like a Demo? Unless you want to do something so utterly retarded as adding durability to weapons so they need repairing, how exactly should ammo be relevant to a Zerker? Not to mention the Xbow now costs significantly more than it used to and i'm sure teammates would be glad of any spare money you have...

Crawlers are more of a threat to other perks than the Zerker? Get real.
If Sirens or Husks target you then big deal, the damage is lessened... clearly forgetting that other perks don't have to go NEAR the Husk or Siren to kill them.

I don't know what maps you play but enemies don't approach the Zerker 1 at a time, spaced far enough apart that you can engage them all without any interference from the others with Husks casually watching you from the distance. You get 4 Crawlers with a mix of Gorefasts and Clots blocking clear shots or Husks and Sirens hidden behind a wave of specimens, all of them you have to combat, ultimately, at melee range, where you have to give up space and dance around to fight things in a safe order, which most maps don't really allow you to do.

I could go on but if the last time this was all said is anything to go by you won't listen anyway...

Cool, now I don't gotta go through the trouble of making an argument.

Anyway, in the end, even if you ARE right and a ultra top-tier Zerker is only limited by his ping and nothing else, how many of those perfect players are there? 1 out of 1000?

Fact is, almost any other perk is easier to play and quicker to be proficient in. At pub level Zerker rarely if ever steals the show.

I've said it before and I still believe it: Balance for the majority of the playerbase, balance for the common folk. Not the 1000 hour players, as anyone that serious WILL find some exploitable imbalance through sheer time and effort. Anyone who puts more effort into playing then the dev can possibly put into balance WILL beat said balance. That's just common sense.

 

[9_6]

Bull****.

Up until now the zerker has always been the "underdog" even though people have always seen him as the best perk to solo.
Now that the beta hits and you see some *good* zerkers killing stuff, you suddenly notice "woah, the zerker is really good at soloing!!!".

Congratulations, sherlock.
Yes, the berserker isn't as "useless" as people who have no idea how to use him kept saying.
No, the berserker doesn't have "no weaknesses", he's full of weaknesses actually.

On an open map, it takes him more than 1 minute to deal with 2 husks, 1 siren and a couple of meatshields, most of that time will be spent running away.
If he sees a pack of crawlers, he will run away.
If he sees a pound (and doesn't have that ridiculous 1014 xbow), he will run away and then perhaps, if he can, deploy some horrendously impractical tactic that takes way too long to maybe deal with it like LAR headshotting or axing.

 

[nutterbutter]

Up until now the zerker has always been the "underdog" even though people have always seen him as the best perk to solo.
Now that the beta hits and you see some *good* zerkers killing stuff, you suddenly notice "woah, the zerker is really good at soloing!!!".

So the zerker has always been the underdog even though people have seen him as the best perk to solo? Wha?

The only perk that was more powerful and able to solo than the zerker was the medic /playing/ a zerker.

As for the beta hitting and I'm seeing some "good zerkers" now, yes, that is exactly what has happened. In the 1000+ hours of KF I've played, I've only seen good zerkers in the 60+ beta hours. Just those 60+ hours.

And you think that in none of my other posts, ever, I haven't mentioned melee being overpowered or needing a correction. Ever. Sure, I haven't.

As for making a specific post only about overpowered zerkers now, now is the time because TWI is willing to rebalance the perks. The problem is that zerker is OP and TWI is going to buff him even more.

If the zerker or medic sees a group of crawlers, they have the option to run away. No other perk has that option. And nothing says that the zerker has to fight a group of crawlers with a katana. No other perks relies on a single weapon so I fail understand why everyone who thinks the zerker needs buffing thinks the zerker is incapable of switching to a ranged weapon.

Think about this. When you log into the game, say TWI gives you the option to choose 20% faster speed and 20% damage resistance or 50% more damage with a perked weapon. I'm willing to bet you anything that 99% of the players would choose faster speed and damage resistance.

There is a reason for that choice.

If he sees a pound (and doesn't have that ridiculous 1014 xbow), he will run away and then perhaps, if he can, deploy some horrendously impractical tactic that takes way too long to maybe deal with it like LAR headshotting or axing.

Funny how all of those /impractical tactics/strangely make the zerker the one perk that survives 90% of the time. Or how all of those /impractical tactics/ allow the zerker to kite scores and scores of specimens with no other perks with /practical tactics/ can.

You can keep saying how the zerker is an underdog and how it needs a buff, but I'm speaking about the realities of the game right now.

 

[9_6]

So the zerker has always been the underdog even though people have seen him as the best perk to solo? Wha?

I know right?

The problem is that zerker is OP and TWI is going to buff him even more.

That ain't gonna happen.
Perhaps you haven't noticed that huge katana nerf he got.
Perhaps you don't notice how no one really calls for a serious buff other than returning him to how he was before.
You're too alarmist about this.

 

[FloorKilling]

Not op at all!

Not op at all!

By defintion the "Berzerks" are supposed to be a class that can take heavy damage. I dont see how you would think its OP, I hate when I start a server by myself then a stupid zerk joins in and doubles the number of zombies and does not have enough sinces to atleast buy a mac 10 with his Katana, then we get wiped out.

Its an up close and personal class so it has to be much stroger than projectile classes,other wise it would be as usless as the sharpshooter with L.A.W. (instant death)

If you level your zerker to level 6 u deserve all its extra everything perks

 

[Salad Snake]

Funny how all of those /impractical tactics/strangely make the zerker the one perk that survives 90% of the time. Or how all of those /impractical tactics/ allow the zerker to kite scores and scores of specimens with no other perks with /practical tactics/ can.

They're impractical because they fail 9 times out of 10. A good balance also takes into account player difficulty, a more risky tactic would have more end potential. More risk, more reward. Berserker was possibly the most risky class by default, but this new beta has reduced that risk by increasing his damage resistance. Because of this he has less reward because he cannot do as much with his Katana alone now.


Also, to preempt what I'm pretty sure you're going to say, yes other classes can solo as well with less risky tactics (assuming half the wave was already over and ammo isn't going to be much of a problem). Sharpie and Support can also stay in a defensible position and pick off funneled enemies. Yes Zerker has the best chance, but he pays for it in having the most risk in his play, and not just solo. ALL of Zerkers play is potentially risky since he can always get hit if he is in a position to deal damage (melee range). Picking off targets at range as any other class has no risk until they get into melee range (or it's a Husk or Siren).

 

[FloorKilling]

They're impractical because they fail 9 times out of 10. A good balance also takes into account player difficulty, a more risky tactic would have more end potential. More risk, more reward. Berserker was possibly the most risky class by default, but this new beta has reduced that risk by increasing his damage resistance. Because of this he has less reward because he cannot do as much with his Katana alone now.


Also, to preempt what I'm pretty sure you're going to say, yes other classes can solo as well with less risky tactics (assuming half the wave was already over and ammo isn't going to be much of a problem). Sharpie and Support can also stay in a defensible position and pick off funneled enemies. Yes Zerker has the best chance, but he pays for it in having the most risk in his play, and not just solo. ALL of Zerkers play is potentially risky since he can always get hit if he is in a position to deal damage (melee range). Picking off targets at range as any other class has no risk until they get into melee range (or it's a Husk or Siren).

Also ITS THE MOST BORING PERK! SWING LEFT SWING RIGHT

 

[Merin Redplate]

Also ITS THE MOST BORING PERK! SWING LEFT SWING RIGHT

Boring?

 

[lawszepie]

this video explain something, although its normal difficult
YouTube - Killing Floor Patriarch Knife

 

[nutterbutter]

They're impractical because they fail 9 times out of 10.

If the tactics are impractical then why do berserkers survive the team 90% of the time? If the tactics are so impractical then how can zerkers repeatedly solo scrakes and fleshpounds? The reason I sai repeatedly is that generally any perk can solo a single scrake or FP. But eventually the drain on ammo and grenades means other perks just can't do enough damage.

So while an axe or katana may be 'impractical' compared to an aa12, when that mag is empty, the aa12 is an anchor.

Berserker was possibly the most risky class by default

Most risky when? Certainly not in the beginning. Zerker was the perk ALWAYS called when scrake or FP attacked the group. Did the zerker get more or less powerful when the katana was introduced? More. Did the zerker get more or less powerful when lvl 6 was introduced? More.

Sure the zerker is more difficult to play than simply firing a shotgun, but once someone hits lvl 2 then that 'risk' is gone.

Also, to preempt what I'm pretty sure you're going to say, yes other classes can solo...

Solo, sure. Kite 40+ specimens on suicidal, no.

Yes Zerker has the best chance, but he pays for it in having the most risk in his play, and not just solo.

Less risk. Zerker can run. Zerker has resistances. Before someone says "Yeah, but the zerker has to run" do you think a closed map favors /any/ perk? A closed map is even more lethal for other perks. They can't dodge. They can't gain distance. They can't create space to heal. They /have/ to reload and procure ammo.

Picking off targets at range as any other class has no risk until they get into melee range (or it's a Husk or Siren).

I have yet to see any zerker over lvl 2 or more than one hour of exp /not/ equip a decent ranged weapon. People who claim the zerker fights at a disadvantage willfully and purposefully ignore the fact that any zerker worth a damn equips a LAR, m79, xbow, SCAR, cannon, or any other ranged weapon.

No zerker fights /solely/ equipped with just a katana or chainsaw just like every other perk uses an assortment of weapons.

 

[Heyman]

All I see in this thread is a slippery slope getting lubricated.

 

[HaTeMe]

Has no weaknesses?? I always knew you were an *** and a trolll but this is getting ridiculous.

Ive been using zerker in countless of games and to me it seems more like he got a weakness against every specimen but scrakes and clots, because he is the only one who is forced to attack specimens in their attack range which makes zerker very vurnerable to damage.

Every other perk can rely on ranged attacks to bring enemies down. Sure zerker can get a ranged backup weapon too but he will never be as effective with one as the other perks.

 

[SMIFF]

The problem is more to do with the FP rage mechanics than the actual Berserker.

 

[outofrealman]

Before we change the fp rage mechanics we must consider do we really need to deny any possibility to survive when everyone else is dead.