How the Berserker is overpowered...

[nutterbutter]

If you're a good enough Berserker to make Killing Floor laughably easy on any difficulty, then you've earnt it.

That's the same as a godly Sharpshooter outperforming a M14 spamshooter pre-1014. If you've gotten good enough at the perk, you deserve to be rewarded for it.

With the sharpshooter comparison you are comparing different players with the same tools.

My saying that the zerker is OP is comparing the zerker to the other perks.

But then you add anyone to ignore who disagrees with you and eventually gets bored of repeating themselves so go figure. I'm still seeing the same points here that have been refuted about 500 times but you choose to ignore them. The fact you feel the need to respond to everything with 5 page long multi quotes really says it all as thats mostly the trademark of a troll argueing for the sake of it.

I've got one last thing to say to you then I am washing my hands of you forever. You aren't interested in discussing anything. You are only interested in accusations, insults, and name calling. I've got no time for that.

As for me adding people who disagree with me to the ignore list, I stand on my replies here. I am respectful of other's opinions whether I agree with them or not. I'll discuss anything with anyone as long as they are polite.

As for my "5 page long multi quotes", it was mentioned (whether it is true or not) that there is an unofficial board policy of two max consecutive replies so I'll usually wait a day or so and reply to multiple authors in a single post. I like to put a blank line between paragraphs and I like to put three blank lines between replies to different authors.

You'll get more out of life by being nice to people than by acting like a jerk, but you do whatever is best for you.

This is where I disagree Nutters. The disadvantages should be relatively obvious.

I've yet to really see any disadvantages. I could be wrong, but no one has mentioned any. There have been two great replies where people have gone over such disadvantages I just disagreed with most of their points.

Sure, on paper the zerker's disadvantages seem obvious, but in the game, there aren't any. There is the classic argument of "The zerker is at a huge disadvantage attacking a group of crawlers with the katana." That argument is made by people in this thread. I've played in many games with those people and they don't even use the katana to attack a group of crawlers. They whip out the LAR or pistol to kill the crawlers. Theoretically, the zerker has some disadvantages. But those disadvantages don't materialize in practice.

Yes the berserker can use other weapons (albeit unperked) although, so can any other class, so I fail to see why this would contribute to making the class op, you could say the same thing about zerdicks running around with katanas or m79s.

If someone chooses to play such a class and use weapons outside of it's intended role then they have to do so with no perk bonuses, so fair trade in my opinion as it still resides within the game mechanics and they may be trying to make up for what the team might be lacking even if only marginally.

If they manage to do it awesomely? Then half their luck. If they are a zerker for example, then they are trading their damage bonuses for a speed and damage resistance bonus instead, if using non-melee weapons.

Don't get me started on the zerdics. Anytime the best melee character wasn't specifically designed to fight shows there is an imbalance there as well.

I agree with your point 100% about using non-perked weapons. If someone wants to use non-perked weapons then that's cool. The problem is that the zerker's perks proper more than make up for any lost perk damage. Anytime a zerker with the m79 is more dangerous than a lvl 6 demo with the m79, there is a balance problem.

I've stated before that no one can do more than 100% damage so if an unperked LAR is powerful enough to kill a specimen, a lvl 6 sharpie shooting that same specimen with a perked LAR isn't going to do any more effective damage.

Add in the zerker doesn't require dosh to be spent unless he wants to. Since he doesn't have to purchase or refill any weapons past the first trader wave, he always has money for anything.

I also think that TWI should MP7ize all of the weapons. You know how the MP7 not only does more damage perked, but how weapon capacity is dependent on being perked or not. I think that same approach should apply to all of the weapons.

AA12 has 20 shells in a perked drum. AA12 should have 8 shells in an unperked drum. M14 should have 10 rounds per unperked mag. Examples like that

It seems balanced to me and feels like it's working as intended. We may just have to agree to disagree.

That's cool. I think the zerker is OP and you're wrong. Just kidding. We don't have to agree. You can think I'm wrong. I'm fine with that. I very well could be.

If you would, I ask that you do me a favor. Please think of 3 disadvantages a zerker has that the other perks don't. Don't make it generic like "closed map" because everyone has problems in a closed map. And please don't create a scenario like "6 crawlers drop on the perk." And please don't make one about a specific weapon because a player can always use a different weapon. If you are willing to do that, then I would really appreciate it. If you don't want to, that's cool as well.

Unit-05 is actually just damn good at the game in general, but as a berzerker and firebug he is among the best. I would consider what he had to say as well when making a judgement.

If unit-05 was interested in discussing opinions, strategies, and experiences then I would consider what he had to say. But sadly, he is more interested in hurling accusations, insults, and personal attacks. And I am not willing to ignore the 90% personal attacks to consider the 10% opinions. Which is a shame, because if he has impressed you with his opinion then it would be worth considering.

 

[Dead :(]

I've yet to really see any disadvantages. I could be wrong, but no one has mentioned any. There have been two great replies where people have gone over such disadvantages I just disagreed with most of their points.

Sure, on paper the zerker's disadvantages seem obvious, but in the game, there aren't any. There is the classic argument of "The zerker is at a huge disadvantage attacking a group of crawlers with the katana." That argument is made by people in this thread. I've played in many games with those people and they don't even use the katana to attack a group of crawlers. They whip out the LAR or pistol to kill the crawlers. Theoretically, the zerker has some disadvantages. But those disadvantages don't materialize in practice.

I think part of the problem here is that you are arguing one thing and saying you are arguing another. There is a slight difference between the two. It isn't your fault really, the language we are all using here is a bit imprecise. The argument you have been making is that the strengths of the berserker more than make up for the weaknesses of the perk. The balance of weaknesses and strengths is the problem you have been addressing, not that the perk has no weaknesses.

To prove this is what you are arguing, look at your responses to 1,5 and 7 to my post for example.

1) Yes and no. To use his perked weapons he does have to get close. But he has significant range and direct damage resistances along with not being able to be held. 90% of the games I have seen ended have been ended due to being overrun. So while being in the middle of the action is a disadvantage to all perks, the zerker is best to deal with it. So while I agree with you that the zerker has to get "up close and personal" to do the most damage, I see the overwhelmingly number of games ending up with the specimens getting up close.

To argue that the Berserker has no weaknesses, you would have to attack the premise of the argument. So if you were arguing there were no weaknesses, your actual response should have been "The zerker is at no greater risk in melee range than another perk attacking. He can not be hit in melee range." That argument of course doesn't fly because it isn't true. What you argued here was that although the zerker has this weakness, it has the best perk bonuses to make up for this weakness.

5) But he isn't limited to his own perked weapons. Other unperked weapons are more than powerful enough.

You didn't attack my premise here either. You didn't argue "the Berserker can kill two clots with a katana swing, actually." What you argued is that despite this weakness the berserker can compensate by using a weapon from another perk.

7) Weak damage compared to what? Sure, if you want to compare the amount of damage a specific perk can do in 20 seconds to a zerker. However, once other factors such as a longer lifetime to actually do damage is considered, then the zerker out-damages the other perks.

Again you didn't attack the premise. You did not argue "the katana actually does more damage than you calculated. This perk does not deal less damage than others". You argued that it's survivability makes up for it's somewhat weak damage which gives the perk equal, if not greater damage than the other perks.

***

So in each of these examples you are not denying that the berserker has these weaknesses. But this is what you have been stating you have been doing. To argue that the zerker has no weaknesses you would have to lie or be ignorant of the mechanics of the class. Since you have been saying your point is something along the lines of "the zerker has no weaknesses" many people have been flaming you and claiming you are a troll, but this is not what you are really arguing. What you have been arguing is actually that the strengths of the berserker class outweigh the weaknesses of the class, and the class needs to be better balanced somehow.

Again it really wasn't your fault, the meaning of "strength" and "weakness" was the problem. Almost everyone was considering the strengths and weaknesses separate from each other. You on the other hand were referring to net strengths and weaknesses of the perk. I think if you rephrase your argument to something like "The Bereserker has strengths and weaknesses, but the strengths make up for the weaknesses of the perk so it is superior to the other perks" you will get less flaming and more people involved in the discussion .

 

[Salad Snake]

So in each of these examples you are not denying that the berserker has these weaknesses. But this is what you have been stating you have been doing. To argue that the zerker has no weaknesses you would have to lie or be ignorant of the mechanics of the class. Since you have been saying your point is something along the lines of "the zerker has no weaknesses" many people have been flaming you and claiming you are a troll, but this is not what you are really arguing. What you have been arguing is actually that the strengths of the berserker class outweigh the weaknesses of the class, and the class needs to be better balanced somehow.

Holy.....I applaud you sir, it all makes sense now. It does make much more sense to argue that Berserker's strengths outweigh his weaknesses then to argue that he has none at all. I still disagree though, I believe Zerker's strengths and weaknesses are balanced for most players. His weaknesses actually outweigh his strengths at the beginner level as his weaknesses require more reflex and intelligence to cover up then, say, Commando's (Avoid big enemies) or Support's (Keep track of ammo, and learn to maximize spread and penetration). At all but the very very highest level, it's dubious whether the Zerker's strengths outweigh his weaknesses.

Of course, changing the argument from "Zerker has no weaknesses" to "Zerker's strengths outweigh any weaknesses" makes the whole discussion entirely subjective, so it could go on forever. And it has.....

 

[CandleJack]

With the sharpshooter comparison you are comparing different players with the same tools.

My saying that the zerker is OP is comparing the zerker to the other perks.

Well i only have a knowledge of firearms, but i was attempting to contribute to this thread in a constructive manner.

Good day sir.

 

[webley]

been looking at beta mechanics of berserker and the 15% speed is just to much coupled with damage reduction

speed in essence is damage reduction because you can run away from dangerous clusters - and also allows you to pull out of a committed melee attack and whip out a nade launcher - zerkers should be punished for making silly melee attacks - not have the ability of speed to pull out so easily

simple balance - loose the speed and keep the damage reduction

if he is to keep speed then loose the damage reduction

either way having both is just far to much - speed has so many advantages

at lvl 6 zerker spawns with his massively damage reducing armour and the chainsaw - there are no upkeep costs and cash simply pours into a masssive secondary weapon. katana costs 299 - big deal.

by not being grappled by clots and adding 15% speed - this patch will introduce berserker swarms on servers - if they dont change it during beta - they will after they see the results when it goes live

people are abusing the speed and armour on medic - now lets take those two traits and add them to zerker and include immune to grapple and good melee damage - its not rocket science

sure you can call out the zerkers weaknesses - but theres more strengths to make a very good reason to pick up this class

 

[Old Ranger]

In multiplayer

I see in that way, that Berserkers job is help team, not run away from team. If some situations is not possebly or reasonable use melee, in those situations you fight with gun. With melee weapons you use when ever its possibly. Berserkers job, in a way i see it, is, when biggie arrives and rage with other player, Berserk run in that point to help with powerfull melee attacs and block Biggie as much as he can.

There you need speed. Speed is important.

You are Berserker, naturally speed is one thing, when you berserk.

 

[nutterbutter]

I think part of the problem here is that you are arguing one thing and saying you are arguing another. There is a slight difference between the two. It isn't your fault really, the language we are all using here is a bit imprecise. The argument you have been making is that the strengths of the berserker more than make up for the weaknesses of the perk. The balance of weaknesses and strengths is the problem you have been addressing, not that the perk has no weaknesses.

I completely agree with you. However, I don't think I've made any bones about that I think the zerker has no weakness because his perks proper make up for them. I've even said that directly.

"Sure, on paper the zerker's disadvantages seem obvious, but in the game, there aren't any."

"[Added for edit] I believe the disconnect here is that you, along with others are arguing theoretical points while I am arguing realistic points. Sure, theoretically a zerker using a katana will have more trouble fighting a group of crawlers than a support using the aa12. But realistically, a zerker wouldn't use the katana for that. He would pull out an m79, LAR, or the pistol and kill the crawlers."

"That is what makes him OP. The zerker's perk proper means all of the litte disadvantages of the unperked weapon can easily be dealt with by the zerker's perks proper." And those comments are the ones that are in this specific thread. I've said variations of those 3 quotes many times in other threads.

And I think that is the point. While the zerker has been designed on paper to have weaknesses, in the game there aren't any and often a zerker with an unperked weapon makes a better player than that specific perk with a perked weapon.

Well i only have a knowledge of firearms, but i was attempting to contribute to this thread in a constructive manner.

Good day sir.

I wasn't trying to shut you down. I value your opinion. I was just pointing out that your example was comparing different player's skills using the same tools rather than one perk to another.

 

[Salad Snake]

And I think that is the point. While the zerker has been designed on paper to have weaknesses, in the game there aren't any and often a zerker with an unperked weapon makes a better player than that specific perk with a perked weapon.

I don't know about that.....I find it hard to keep up the needed DPS with an unperked weapon at higher difficulties. So while you can use an unperked weapon in a pinch (say, an M79 for a group that includes crawlers), it's fairly difficult to avoid getting your team overrun from that direction compared to the actual perk using it. At the bottom of this argument is the question of whether one believes that a good Zerker can use a weapon unperked on Hard or Suicidal to the extent that he doesn't need the bonuses that weapon's perk gives that weapon.

For example: Can a good enough Zerker use a LAR or HC good enough to offset the bonuses a mediocre Sharpshooter would get from just being Sharpshooter, and thus keep up with him using his own weapon while also having the power of a Zerker in reserve?


Personally I've found that that amount of skill is extremely rare, so I'm still not really worried about it. You probably think the opposite though, and that's fine. Phrased this way, the entire argument is difficult to objectively test. You'd have to have a Zerker use another perk's weapons the entire game and at least almost keep pace with a mediocre player of the perk proper.

 

[Deafmute]

And I think that is the point. While the zerker has been designed on paper to have weaknesses, in the game there aren't any and often a zerker with an unperked weapon makes a better player than that specific perk with a perked weapon.

I find it hilarious that you pull these claims out of thin air with no real proof or evidence behind them.

 

[Uk1t4k3]

I find it hilarious that you pull these claims out of thin air with no real proof or evidence behind them.

Because he is so good with berserker which makes the perk so OP without proofing with valid evidence.

 

[Unit-05]

Because he is so good with berserker which makes the perk so OP without proofing with valid evidence.

And his points are so proven that he doesnt need to show video evidence of them because it would just show the points hes saying, Right?

 

[scary ghost]

Because he is so good with berserker which makes the perk so OP without proofing with valid evidence.

Wait, you've played with Devante before so you should know how good of a zerker he is. I don't know how often you play with him but I know you've seen Devante turn an impossible situation into a win, like when he went up against 3 FPs. Hell, you even thought it was a GG when we saw 3 of them right behind him and he beat them all down. Go ask Devante if he thinks zerker is OP, and he will say yes.

YouTube - Killing Floor - Devante Berserker Play on 6 Man Suicidal

0:30 - Fp and Scrake wipe out 4 people, leaving 172 specimens to kill between 2 zerkers
7:00 - Other zerker dies, leaving 64 specimens left to clean up
7:15 - Devante goes up against 3 FPs

There's a real situation for consideration. Take out Devante and put in the best player you know of any other perk. Would they have been able to pull out the win?

Afaik, Nutter never claimed to be a super awesome zerker. But guess which zerker he has played with several times? If you guessed Devante, then you are right.

 

[Entangler]

What version is that video from?

 

[scary ghost]

What version is that video from?

This was from 1015 patch.

 

[Entangler]

This was from 1015 patch.

The public one?

 

[scary ghost]

The public one?

Yes, the one that was released on the 19th which had the mac10 sound fix.

 

[nutterbutter]

Again you didn't attack the premise. You did not argue "the katana actually does more damage than you calculated. This perk does not deal less damage than others". You argued that it's survivability makes up for it's somewhat weak damage which gives the perk equal, if not greater damage than the other perks.

I wanted to go over this really quickly because I think I may have explained my point earlier poorly. Or just accidentally missed replying to this point directly.

Sure, and I think it is quite obvious, that many perked weapons will outdamage perked melee weapons in many situations, but not all situations. The conditions of the test will affect the outcome. A single clot will take the same damage from an AA12 as a katana (assuming 1 shot kill for both). An AA12 will obscenely outdamage a katana when leveling a hallway full of specimens in the time it takes to empty the drum. However, do that same test when at the end of a wave when the AA12 is empty. Now you may say that isn't a fair test, but the point is that the katana is always full damage, all the time, and no matter how often it has been used during the wave. Now do the same damage test when an FP attacks and happens to 1 shot kill the support guy after he has fired 4 shells but the zerker stays alive.

If the damage test is done with all conditions perfect (full load of ammo, specimens directly in front, no chance of death, time to empty the full mag, limited time) then many, if not most, weapons will outdamage the katana. That is true. But conditions aren't that favorable all of the time.

Personally I've found that that amount of skill is extremely rare, so I'm still not really worried about it. You probably think the opposite though, and that's fine. Phrased this way, the entire argument is difficult to objectively test.

Sure. I'll admit that my opinion of the zerker being OP is completely subjective.

Personally, I think that everyone secretly wants the zerker to be OP. Everyone wants to be the guy that can wade singlehandedly into the specimens and slice and dice. Everyone secretly wants to be the player that can stop the biggest mobs with a blade and saves the game when every one else dies during the wave. I'll admit playing up close with a katana somehow seems more enjoyable that simply firing and reloading a rifle. It is more challenging and it feels like "real work" is being done.

You'd have to have a Zerker use another perk's weapons the entire game and at least almost keep pace with a mediocre player of the perk proper.

I think you are misinterpreting my point. I said "often a zerker with an unperked weapon makes a better player than that specific perk with a perked weapon."

There isn't any way that a zerker with an m79 will do more damage with an m79 than a demo equipped with an m79. But the key word is player. A lvl 6 zerker with an m79 is, in most every case, more valuable to the team than a lvl 6 demo.

Rather than think of the zerker mainly using unperked weapons for the entire game, think of the zerker sporadically using unperked weapons to maximize his effectiveness. The same reason every other perk uses unperked weapons. A group of crawlers spawn 30 feet away? Hit them with the m79. A husk is 50 feet away? Pop him with the LAR. If anything is farther than 20 feet away and the zerker can't rush it, pop it with the LAR, pistol, xbow, cannon, or something similar then go back to using melee weaponry.

Don't even get me started on the medic with a katana, m79, mp7, dual cannons, super speed, super armor, super health recharging, and super heals.

Because he is so good with berserker which makes the perk so OP without proofing with valid evidence.

I had an in-game conversation with someone about this thread about a week or so ago, and he mentioned that he thought that most of the people who disagree with me haven't actually read my posts. Your post above confirms that opinion at least about you.

I've stated multiple times, probably no less than six, that while I have a lvl 6 zerker, I certainly don't understand the perk as well as most people and that I am nowhere near as good a player as scary or devante.

But thanks for completely ignoring my original post and saying that since I don't have any valid evidence , in your opinion no less, then I must be wrong.

 

[timur]

Personally, I think that everyone secretly wants the zerker to be OP. Everyone wants to be the guy that can wade singlehandedly into the specimens and slice and dice. Everyone secretly wants to be the player that can stop the biggest mobs with a blade and saves the game when every one else dies during the wave. I'll admit playing up close with a katana somehow seems more enjoyable that simply firing and reloading a rifle. It is more challenging and it feels like "real work" is being done.

To be perfectly honest, while I still stick by my points, I also have to admit that the few times I have managed to go rambo successfully, I absolutely loved the thrill and the challenge. Of course, I usually die trying, and am not all that great, but there is no point pretending it wasn't fun those few times.


Also, I know that at last a few of us do read your points. Although those massive posts that are so very intimidating I usually skim.

 

[Entangler]

Personally, I think that everyone secretly wants the zerker to be OP. Everyone wants to be the guy that can wade singlehandedly into the specimens and slice and dice. Everyone secretly wants to be the player that can stop the biggest mobs with a blade and saves the game when every one else dies during the wave. I'll admit playing up close with a katana somehow seems more enjoyable that simply firing and reloading a rifle. It is more challenging and it feels like "real work" is being done.

Oh dear, you've done it again. I don't know why you bother repeatedly saying that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" when you're clearly full of derision for anyone who disagrees with you. Who do you think you're kidding? You might as well just say what you really think and be done with it.

Anyway, to address a few recurring misconceptions in your case:

You have often said things to the effect of "the Berserker can disengage whenever he wants" and "the Berserker can always run away". Inherent in those claims is the assumption that the Berserker has unlimited space into which to retreat, e.g. when doing laps around the map. Right off the bat, then, you've missed the fact that the Berserker is actually not on the run most of the time - he's usually covering the team. When he's trying to keep things away from his less mobile teammates, his retreat room is severely limited (he's not being very useful if he continually backs right into them and lets the specimens get in their faces, after all), and his survivability right along with it. Dodging attacks is a large part of what keeps him alive, but when he can only dodge so many attacks in a row before dropping the line, he's forced to play more aggressively, going on the offensive under unfavourable circumstances. Those Sirens he can "just run away from" become a huge problem, the Flesh Pounds can't be kited safely away from them, and he often doesn't have time to switch to the backup weapon for Crawlers and then back again before the Gorefasts reach him.

But of course, if he's covering his teammates, surely his teammates are also covering him? Hopefully, yes; but they have to do a good job of it, or he'll die. Those weaknesses of his that you insist are not really there are in full effect whenever his mobility is limited, so he depends on his teammates to keep them away from him.

That's also one of the main reasons why a fatigue system like you keep suggesting would be a bad idea. When a team-defending Berserker's energy runs low, what should he do? Ranged perks deal with reloading by creating a "distance window" in which to do it: that is, they keep the specimens far enough away from them that they have time to reload before the specimens can reach them. Berserkers implicitly lack that window when defending a team, because their role mandates that they're within striking distance as often as possible. Plus (and this is the other reason), despite their speed bonuses, charging Gorefasts still outrun them, so even when on the move, they can't reliably create that window just by running away.

Money is a bit of an issue, I'll grant you that, but not a major one; playing a perk that's in the middle of danger all the time ought to convey a few benefits, and that's one of them. I've suggested before that level 5 Berserkers should spawn with a Fire Axe, level 6s with a Katana, neither with armour, and that the Chainsaw should celebrate its now-restored (in beta) tier 3 status by costing

 

[bstm300]

Oh dear, you've done it again. I don't know why you bother repeatedly saying that "everyone is entitled to their opinion" when you're clearly full of derision for anyone who disagrees with you. Who do you think you're kidding? You might as well just say what you really think and be done with it.

Anyway, to address a few recurring misconceptions in your case:

You have often said things to the effect of "the Berserker can disengage whenever he wants" and "the Berserker can always run away". Inherent in those claims is the assumption that the Berserker has unlimited space into which to retreat, e.g. when doing laps around the map. Right off the bat, then, you've missed the fact that the Berserker is actually not on the run most of the time - he's usually covering the team. When he's trying to keep things away from his less mobile teammates, his retreat room is severely limited (he's not being very useful if he continually backs right into them and lets the specimens get in their faces, after all), and his survivability right along with it. Dodging attacks is a large part of what keeps him alive, but when he can only dodge so many attacks in a row before dropping the line, he's forced to play more aggressively, going on the offensive under unfavourable circumstances. Those Sirens he can "just run away from" become a huge problem, the Flesh Pounds can't be kited safely away from them, and he often doesn't have time to switch to the backup weapon for Crawlers and then back again before the Gorefasts reach him.

But of course, if he's covering his teammates, surely his teammates are also covering him? Hopefully, yes; but they have to do a good job of it, or he'll die. Those weaknesses of his that you insist are not really there are in full effect whenever his mobility is limited, so he depends on his teammates to keep them away from him.

That's also one of the main reasons why a fatigue system like you keep suggesting would be a bad idea. When a team-defending Berserker's energy runs low, what should he do? Ranged perks deal with reloading by creating a "distance window" in which to do it: that is, they keep the specimens far enough away from them that they have time to reload before the specimens can reach them. Berserkers implicitly lack that window when defending a team, because their role mandates that they're within striking distance as often as possible. Plus (and this is the other reason), despite their speed bonuses, charging Gorefasts still outrun them, so even when on the move, they can't reliably create that window just by running away.

Money is a bit of an issue, I'll grant you that, but not a major one; playing a perk that's in the middle of danger all the time ought to convey a few benefits, and that's one of them. I've suggested before that level 5 Berserkers should spawn with a Fire Axe, level 6s with a Katana, neither with armour, and that the Chainsaw should celebrate its now-restored (in beta) tier 3 status by costing