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How the Berserker is overpowered...

Even if everyone likes that whole Dynasty Warriors-type "I can cut through anything" sorta Zerker, the fact that 99.99% of players will stop playing LONG before reaching anything resembling the level of, say, Scary Ghost or Devante invalidates this argument. To all but 10 or 20 Zerkers, he is balanced and difficult to really do well with.

There is a difference between people enjoying a certain perk because of the style of play (which I described) and some players being able to exploit the same perk to completely tilt the game. The same way 99.99% of weapon enthusiasts would immensely enjoy firing a Barrett .50 cal rifle even though they aren't one of the handful of snipers that can pop someone more than mile away.



...when he stands out in front of the team's formation to draw all the specimens from that direction to himself

Some zerkers play that way and personally, I hate it and think it is counterproductive. Few things are as bad for a team as a zerker who sidesteps left and right trying to aggro everything and functions as a very effective meat-shield for the specimens. This is also why I think there should be some form of friendly fire in the game.

When I say that the defending Berserker's mobility is limited, I'm not talking about the map layout, or how well he can break formation and run away if the need arises. I'm talking about how far he can retreat while dodging attacks before he ceases to be doing his job. Whenever the specimens he's supposed to be baiting reach the rest of the team, he is not doing his job. Given that he doesn't kill the specimens as quickly as the sweeper perks do, if he doesn't at least consistently keep them away from the others, he isn't contributing in any meaningful fashion, and should probably be replaced with a Commando. So, in order to keep doing his job as defender, he has to hold his ground to some extent - even when it's not in his own best interests. And holding his ground for the team's benefit is what limits his mobility, and thus what brings in the weaknesses.

Ok, let's look at that. I think that it is a very, very rare opportunity where the zerker is continually driven back to the team without the opportunity to push back to his original position. But, let's say that happens.

If specimens are rushing hard enough and are concentrated enough to push the zerker (with no reloading pauses) back, do you think any other perk could put out enough concentrated firepower continually to prevent the same result? Now, once the specimens have pushed back to the core group, what perk is best equipped to deal with that situation? I'd say Medic with armor, Support, Flamer, and Zerker. Once that first huge output of damage runs out from Support and Flamer, their screwed. That leaves Medic with armor and Zerker.

I understand what you are saying, but the zerker doesn't, or better said the player, going to stand in one spot and take damage till he dies. No player is going to do that with any perk. Players will safely move forward to buy time when they have to back up. All players with all perks will do it. And if a rush of specimens has a strong enough attack to continually push a zerker back 20 feet or so (and think what kind of rush it would take for that to happen), every other perk would be overwhelmed and they wouldn't have the speed to survive.

Now, he could just run away whenever that becomes a problem... if he doesn't mind ****ing over his team.

I'm not saying that. However, only the zerker has the speed and survivability to do that and it does happen all of the time. And not only does it screw the team over, it is even worse when the zerker kites the trail specimens through the rest of the team.

When I say that the zerker can run, I mean when the rest of the team is dead. When the rest of the team is overwhelmed, do you think a Support or Commando can get away?

I do think his solo kiting ability is too strong right now; that's why my suggestions are specifically geared towards toning it down without otherwise affecting him. Yours, on the other hand, are blanket nerfs that will reduce his effectiveness in areas where it isn't needed.

You can say my suggestions are "blanket nerfs", but like I said before; Everyone keeps saying they have to be up close to kill, make it that way.

Your explanation of how Berserkers should manage a fatigue system is lacking. It's not as simple as "just save resources". If he has to stop attacking in the middle of a fight, he will be hit, every time. When you're standing out the front and half of the active specimens are targeting, it's a rare moment when you can actually afford to stop attacking. A fatigue system is implicitly a nerf to his ability to hold the line, which is unnecessary, and a push towards always running away.

Of course my explanation was lacking. I didn't give one. I pointed out there should be one because it is incredibly stupid that a zerker can fire continually throughout the entire game with his top tiered weapons, doing maximum damage with each attack, without having to stop or even slow down at any point.

What do you mean by "20% physical"? What kind of damage are you saying should not be covered? Fire?

I didn't say that there was any type of damage that shouldn't be covered. Just because I didn't mention something doesn't mean that you are free to jump to conclusions. You can always ask, you know? I just mentioned physical because I thought that was the primary topic.

Weight capacity reduction: No. It's yet another change that, while designed to hinder soloing, also unnecessarily impacts on other roles. Fire Axe + Chainsaw and Katana + Chainsaw are much less effective loadouts for soloing than Fire Axe + Katana + LAR; having a change aimed at cutting down on soloing render them unusable is both ironic and unnecessary.

I didn't make the suggestion to hinder soloing. I made the suggestion to focus the zerker and what everyone says is his role and primary "weakness".

For each point of carry weight over the 10th, the movement speed bonus is reduced by 10%. For a level 6 Berserker with (in beta) a base movement speed bonus of 30%, carrying a full load reduces it to 15%. So if you choose to give yourself a strong ranged attack, outrunning the horde becomes much harder, and you can't dodge attacks as reliably. Plus, it doesn't affect Chainsaw loadouts very much, because they mostly use the Chainsaw for cutting down hordes, with which you don't get the movement speed bonus anyway. Sounds all fair to me.

That is a good idea but while it does deal with one thing, it isn't comprehensive.

You haven't given a solid gameplay-oriented reason why Berserkers shouldn't be allowed to wear armour, so no. It sounds like "just a nerf". Besides, it's a good money sink.

No, I didn't. I made the suggestion that he wouldn't be as fast or as quick as he was wearing the same armor as everyone else. Maybe double the price of the armor or remove the armor. After all of those suggestions, I did write "I don't know." I was just putting things out there.

Mindless spamming just isn't as effective as you seem to think, especially without the beta's silly damage resistance buff, though at this stage I admit it looks like that isn't going anywhere.

No, mindless spamming isn't a panacea, but in certain situations it makes all the difference. I even mentioned a couple.



Come on now?
Did you fall into a coma during the beta or did you lose your key or what?
Would you kindly at least knock that off or do you seriously want to ride home on that beaten and dead horse?

No coma. Still have the key. As far as today is concerned, it is still true in the release. Pointing out what makes the zerker OP and how those same qualities apply to another perk is certainly valid.
 
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There is a difference between people enjoying a certain perk because of the style of play (which I described) and some players being able to exploit the same perk to completely tilt the game. The same way 99.99% of weapon enthusiasts would immensely enjoy firing a Barrett .50 cal rifle even though they aren't one of the handful of snipers that can pop someone more than mile away.

I do not see how this invalidates my point, please elaborate. My point this whole time was that not anyone can exploit Zerker to the extent that he's imbalanced. In fact, barely anyone can. It doesn't matter if his playing style changes the overall feel of the game (and I admit he does) if he's still balanced.
 
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Let this thread die, don't bump it.

TWI, Please ignore this thread and continue on with the original plans that you may have. You have things well in hand and does not needed to be changed last minute under shallow and un-supported facts.

Unit-05

You know you can always just put that in the signature part of your post; by going into the User CP (control panel) and finding the signature part, and putting that in there.
 
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What's the point, it's written above his posts anyway.

In case your just too daft to see his name at the top, he prudently is including a second copy, to drill in the point, in case you thought it was the mysterious nameless forum ghost posting (and not the scary kind:p)
 
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Some zerkers play that way and personally, I hate it and think it is counterproductive. Few things are as bad for a team as a zerker who sidesteps left and right trying to aggro everything and functions as a very effective meat-shield for the specimens. This is also why I think there should be some form of friendly fire in the game.
One doesn't need to practice line dancing in order to get the specimens' attention - just being the closest and/or first seen target is enough, which you usually will be if you're in melee range all the time. And only the bad ones block everyone's line of fire; the good ones are conscious of it and plan their movements accordingly. Are you trying to imply something?

Generally speaking, there are only two other ways a Berserker spends his time: holding an entry route by himself, which only works when it doesn't get much traffic or has Benevolent Architecture (again, an issue with the map, not the perk); or separating himself from the team completely for a rambo session, which "works" insofar as he'll kill things and probably survive, but isn't particularly helpful.

Apart from "switch perks", what would you consider to be the best way for a Berserker to play?

Ok, let's look at that. I think that it is a very, very rare opportunity where the zerker is continually driven back to the team without the opportunity to push back to his original position. But, let's say that happens.
Given that he usually isn't very far ahead of the team in the first place, so as not to obscure their lines of fire too much, it's actually fairly common. Instant death trap, just add Sirens. Or an enraged Flesh Pound that keeps half of the team's hands full for five to ten seconds, if the other specimens aren't particularly Berserker-friendly.

If specimens are rushing hard enough and are concentrated enough to push the zerker (with no reloading pauses) back, do you think any other perk could put out enough concentrated firepower continually to prevent the same result? Now, once the specimens have pushed back to the core group, what perk is best equipped to deal with that situation? I'd say Medic with armor, Support, Flamer, and Zerker. Once that first huge output of damage runs out from Support and Flamer, their screwed. That leaves Medic with armor and Zerker.
But on the other hand, some other perks, particularly the Commando, have a faster overall rate of killing things, keeping the advancing specimens at bay by turning more of them into corpses. And the things that force a defending Berserker backwards, like Crawler swarms or meatshielded Sirens, don't necessarily slow down ranged sweepers. Which of them ends up being more useful overall depends a bit on the map layout and a lot on individual playing style.

I understand what you are saying, but the zerker doesn't, or better said the player, going to stand in one spot and take damage till he dies. No player is going to do that with any perk. Players will safely move forward to buy time when they have to back up. All players with all perks will do it. And if a rush of specimens has a strong enough attack to continually push a zerker back 20 feet or so (and think what kind of rush it would take for that to happen), every other perk would be overwhelmed and they wouldn't have the speed to survive.
No need to exaggerate; of course he isn't going to stand stock still and hope he becomes Tanooki Suit Mario. But the opportunity to regain lost ground doesn't always come - after all, as you yourself noted, games often end with the team being overrun, and having a Berserker in front makes that no less likely - and if it reaches the point where the question becomes "should I stop moving backwards as much and risk death, or run off with my tail between my legs", the team's strategy has failed (not necessarily by the Berserker's hand), and as both options are bad, it's worth considering whether replacing the Berserker with a faster sweeper would've worked better instead.

When I say that the zerker can run, I mean when the rest of the team is dead. When the rest of the team is overwhelmed, do you think a Support or Commando can get away?
That a perk designed to be most effective under the same circumstances as those on which most specimens rely for their attacks (being within melee range) will be a more proficient escape artist and soloist than those that are designed to avoid it is inevitable, and I don't see that as a problem. The better question is whether or not he's too good at it in his own right. Currently the answer is "yes", but "because the other perks aren't as good at it" isn't the reason why.

You can say my suggestions are "blanket nerfs", but like I said before; Everyone keeps saying they have to be up close to kill, make it that way.
Not just to kill, but to kill effectively. I think the reason why people have been saying things like "of course he doesn't do as much damage with off-perk weapons as their respective perks do" is because you've made it sound like the Berserker can be useful by spending most of his time at long range, which is false. It is possible to equip him in ways that give him more flexibility than he ought to have, hence my movement speed suggestion which makes it a choice, but trying to prevent him from attacking at long range at all is just not necessary, because he isn't effective enough at long range for that to be a problem in its own right.

Of course my explanation was lacking. I didn't give one. I pointed out there should be one because it is incredibly stupid that a zerker can fire continually throughout the entire game with his top tiered weapons, doing maximum damage with each attack, without having to stop or even slow down at any point.
Well then you probably should, because without one, the suggestion is absurd. You make it sound like rapid attacking is exclusively the domain of bad players, which it isn't. For that matter, it'd help if you made some attempt to quantify the suggestion - if it's strict enough that it ever affects a Berserker who hasn't pretty well put a paperweight on his mouse button, or Chainsaw ammo ever runs out when it isn't cutting air, it's a definite no-go. Why bother putting yourself in harm's way like that if only to suffer the same problems as the ranged attackers?

I didn't say that there was any type of damage that shouldn't be covered. Just because I didn't mention something doesn't mean that you are free to jump to conclusions. You can always ask, you know? I just mentioned physical because I thought that was the primary topic.
I did ask. I just figured the word "physical" was there for a reason. If it's a habit from talking about RPGs or something, that's fine.

That is a good idea but while it does deal with one thing, it isn't comprehensive.
It need not be "comprehensive" because there is no broader problem for such a solution to address. Bear in mind that that suggestion was made within the context of my other suggestions as well: FP rage mechanic changes, spawn equipment changes, and reverting the damage resistance. Between the lot of them, that just about covers it.
 
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I just realised i had 2 Support icons there.

I had Medic, Sharpshooter, Commando, Support and Demo all open when i made it. :eek:

Anyway, it's fixed now.

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but i don't have 2 L6 Support specs. :D

You still do, the second is hidden behind your head ;)

I'm quite surprised this thread is still going... skimming back i see i haven't missed anything. Gigantic quotestacks filling page after page with useless drivel that noone is really taking any notice of. Didn't most people decide that the Zerker is only overpowered in extremely rare situations dictated mostly by luck rather than some inbuilt overpoweredness?
 
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