Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

[outofrealman]

Hmmm... so Outofrealman, going to this idea of yours for reducing his ranged damage resistance.

Would the new Zerkers stats be say: -

- 40% Melee damage resistance
- 20% Ranged damage resistance

Or would it be higher? lower? And was his speed going to remain 30% or was that going to change?

Far as I can see, it does encourage teamwork and Husks especially would create big problems when kiting for the Zerker. These specimens are supposed to be his weaknesses so it does make sense. Could well make soloing a little bit harder to do and discourage what I shall affectionatly dub nubzerking

I'd say we'd need to be careful that this doesn't overnerf him of course, a mutator might be worth looking into for balance sake. As Nano said, we don't want to make him a totally unfun perk.

Anyone else have an opinion to share on this?

Also remove the bloat resistance. For speed, i would say just make it the same as medic. (and things dont really matter on solo... because the armour can save you long enough to finish the wave LOL)


In this case, when you see a group of gorefast and try to kill them, and accidently hit by a fire ball, you're dead. If you endlessly run, you end up sandwish by crawlers + gorefasts at your back, sirens scrakes and bloats in front of you. I dont think after the change berserker soloing a REMAINING WAVE will be as easy as it is now, but yes, I cant think of ANY way to change the fact of berserker being THE easiest perk to do this without making him useless.

Also, remove the alt-fire of katana so that you NEED fire axe to one-shot husk and siren could also be good. You will also need fire axe to stun scrakes even backstabing him. Now katana take up too much suituation IMO.

The ammo problem is also hard to fix.

 

[nutterbutter]

NO. He just dont know how to kite with other perks....

He ALWAYS think berserker is the ONLY perk to dodge husks (because he think you need SPEED to dodge). He think berserker can kite 90% of the time and other perk needs A LOT OF luck to kite. Which is wrong. Sure berserker is easiest to do that, as I always said.

I don't think a perk needs speed to dodge a husk, but it helps. Any perk can dodge a husk. Put 3 of them together in an open area and to stay alive a player best be a zerker or medic. Any perk can dodge husks when they are in a close map with corners and doors everywhere.

As for me not knowing how to kite with others perks, I can tell you this. The very next time that I see a flamer, demo, sharpie, commando, or support kite 120+ specimens on wave 7 or later on suicidal or HoE will be the first time I see it.

 

[outofrealman]

I don't think a perk needs speed to dodge a husk, but it helps. Any perk can dodge a husk. Put 3 of them together in an open area and to stay alive a player best be a zerker or medic. Any perk can dodge husks when they are in a close map with corners and doors everywhere.

As for me not knowing how to kite with others perks, I can tell you this. The very next time that I see a flamer, demo, sharpie, commando, or support kite 120+ specimens on wave 7 or later on suicidal or HoE will be the first time I see it.

What I know is, IF you let 3 husks catch you in a OPENED area, you are doing it wrong already...

In opened maps (farm, some parts on manor, wyre, etc) you can make use of terrain, making husks miss 90% of the time even you dont even move. Other maps you can just reach the next corner in a few seconds, you may get hit once or twice just like berserker will.

But if 3 husks is continously firing at you, you either just get out of the hell hole where the team gets wiped OR you are doing something wrong.

I remember I played some game with you in beta, where in one of them you blow yourself up when spotting a fleshpound and I was the only one left on foundry. And you can see how quickly fleshpound goes down when facing sharpshooter. I kite with 3XX ping and still drop zed number from 1XX to 4x. Just because a siren and some gorefasts jump from the 2nd floor and caught me off guard and killed me.

 

[nutterbutter]

What I know is, IF you let 3 husks catch you in a OPENED area, you are doing it wrong already...

You say that as if it is a choice. I've been on a map where 8 sirens spawned as a group. I've seen 3 husks drop at one spawn. Multiple times. So having 3 husks, or more, firing at the same time is not "doing it wrong already."

In opened maps (farm, some parts on manor, wyre, etc) you can make use of terrain, making husks miss 90% of the time even you dont even move. Other maps you can just reach the next corner in a few seconds, you may get hit once or twice just like berserker will.

You must be playing a different game than everyone else. The games I've played on HoE the husks are damned accurate. I've gotten popped from across the map on foundry, through the moving wheel, a couple flights up, and between the rail supports. Maybe I'm just wearing "fireball cologne" and attracting them, but since I've read multiple messages about how husks are popping people from across maps, I don't think it is just me.

I remember I played some game with you in beta, where in one of them you blow yourself up when spotting a fleshpound and I was the only one left on foundry. And you can see how quickly fleshpound goes down when facing sharpshooter. I kite with 3XX ping and still drop zed number from 1XX to 4x. Just because a siren and some gorefasts jump from the 2nd floor and caught me off guard and killed me.

I've got all perks up to lvl 6. I've got 4 or 5 of them past lvl 7. I have over 93k headshots. I remember when the flashlight bloom was godawful and when the ak47 and katana were released. I'm not saying this to brag but just to point out that I have been playing this game a long time. I'm assuming you have been playing a long time as well. Quite a bit of experience between the both of us. So when I say that I have never seen a commando, support, sharpie, flamer, or demo solo 120+ specimens past wave 7 and the closest you have ever seen was your experience of maybe getting to 40+ speciemens, then the whole "He just dont know how to kite with other perks...." statement rings hollow. Doesn't it?

 

[outofrealman]

You say that as if it is a choice. I've been on a map where 8 sirens spawned as a group. I've seen 3 husks drop at one spawn. Multiple times. So having 3 husks, or more, firing at the same time is not "doing it wrong already."

Sirens never spawn in a group more than 3. However, after enough time of kiting, slow zeds will just normally pack up together because they are much much slower than other zeds. That's why it is likey to see a LARGE amont of bloats, sirens and scrakes packed together.

You must be playing a different game than everyone else. The games I've played on HoE the husks are damned accurate. I've gotten popped from across the map on foundry, through the moving wheel, a couple flights up, and between the rail supports. Maybe I'm just wearing "fireball cologne" and attracting them, but since I've read multiple messages about how husks are popping people from across maps, I don't think it is just me.

You either misunderstanding "make use of terrain" or you just have no idea of this:
If you standing on high ground when husks are on low ground, they never hits you. Bacause fireball dont explode when hitting fleshmeat. So fireball will just go trough zeds AND players. And even if that husk aim for the thing you are standing on, that wont hurt you.
I never get hit once by husk fireball when I am stand on higher ground than husks or obstacles (such as cars on westlonden or wooden fence on farm.) Not a single time up till now.

I've got all perks up to lvl 6. I've got 4 or 5 of them past lvl 7. I have over 93k headshots. I remember when the flashlight bloom was godawful and when the ak47 and katana were released. I'm not saying this to brag but just to point out that I have been playing this game a long time. I'm assuming you have been playing a long time as well. Quite a bit of experience between the both of us. So when I say that I have never seen a commando, support, sharpie, flamer, or demo solo 120+ specimens past wave 7 and the closest you have ever seen was your experience of maybe getting to 40+ speciemens, then the whole "He just dont know how to kite with other perks...." statement rings hollow. Doesn't it?

How can "He just dont know how to kite with other perks...." false if you cannot do it and somebody can? I myself have kite 100+ zeds as demo once and as support or commando several times. And last week I mamanged to beat wave 7 of 7 on HoE with a freaking LEVEL THREE sharpshooter on westlonden. I have also seen a 6lv sharpshooter kill off 13x zeds with xbow + handcannon on bedlam (ok, back then 9mm was really really useful). Some firebugs or support nearly make it and just die because the last sirens land on them or one sneaky bloat instan-kill them.

The thing is, dont just assume NO OTHER PERK can solo 100+ zeds just because you cannot or never see someone do it (I consider a success when zed number hit 5, because only stupid mistakes or really bad luck can kill them, even fleshpound will auto-die when charging if zed number is > 5). Killing 70+ zeds by kiting with 3xx ping while instan-kill by a bad encounter is not the proof of "sharpshoter cannot kite".

Knowing the magic number of 5 is one of the basic of kiting. Even a sharpshotoer with only knife and 9mm, he can kill 5 scrakes unharm if nothing more is around just by run far enough. But from the posts here, it seems most peopel dont even know about this...

 

[Faneca]

So, I will tell you what just happened :

I joined a Evil Santa's Lair on HoE to see if I could farm some Firebug damage.
I was pleasently surprised to have joined a server with 5 Berserkers, all LVL 6, in Wave 9.
After 10 minutes of wating, they killed the 100 specimens remanin in Wave 9 and I spawned and went to the Trader, 1 nice guy bought me a Katana to help out since I was going Medic LVL 6 to heal them while they mowed down everything.
As soon as Wave 10 starts, a FP out of ****ing nowhere spawned to my left and pushed me into a corner, then it proceded to rape me easily.
So, I then waited for 30 min and saw my fellow Zerkers kill everything but losing all thei're Kevlar and most of thei're HP in the process, but not dieing.
Then, after the Wave ended, everybody got a Chainsaw, went up to the 2nd floor and make a circle around Patrick and spammed him easily and won very easily.

So no, [sarcasm]Berserker is not OP[/sarcasm], but I do think it should be as powerfull as it it because it justifies going Rambo in some situations.

 

[Steeps]

#186 if your squad consisted of 5 supports instead of 5 zerkers you would've only had to wait for 10 minutes. So the game doesn't favor kiting, but instead favors five aa12's crouched in a corner firing away.

That's why I'm against a berserker nerf (though uncertain about bringing him back to pre-1016, since I didn't play it then): he is only overpowered individually and fine in a group setting. Playing rambo is a problem with the player, not the zerker itself. I'm all for a fix that hurts the rambo player, as long as it doesn't hurt the majority of zerkers who play the perk correctly.

Also if you don't like playing with berserkers join a different game. Based on my experiences most games don't feature teams kiting around a map, even on HoE. Join a game, if you see zerkers running around the map just leave and go somewhere else.

 

[the 1st wasted]

Here are a few points to think about:

1. zerker teams are very deadly when the players involved know what they are doing, so using that as an example is not completely accurate. A team of 3 support, 2 SS and a medic, or 4 support, 1 SS and a medic is just as, if not more deadly than a Zerker team.

2. Zerkers kite, just as other perks camp. Is there really that much of a diff?

3. Some say that kiting is an exploit, well, what about a support player continuesly welding a door while the rest of the team kills everything comming through the choke point?

I will say that reducing the Zerker speed might make things better, there are times I have moved to fast which has caused the Zeds to come at me from a diff route.

@Undedd:

I played around last night with your idea of the fp raging at 33% health and have already tested several tactics to deal with it. It is a good idea, but it was also easy to overcome, it did however add more to the game for me, and I would welcome it as an official change.

I guess that the one big diff between Pro Zerkers and non-zerkers is that Zerkers learn from thier mistakes, and find new ways to deal with threats. Every time I play on the pubs, either as a Zerker or someother perk, I always see teams getting wiped due to the same mistakes over, and over, and over again.

 

[nutterbutter]

Sirens never spawn in a group more than 3. However, after enough time of kiting, slow zeds will just normally pack up together because they are much much slower than other zeds. That's why it is likey to see a LARGE amont of bloats, sirens and scrakes packed together.

I've seen sirens spawn in 4 numerous times. As for the times 8 spawned, I wasn't kiting. I was sitting in my usual double wheel spot in foundry and 8 sirens were a pack walking towards me from the other side of the left wheel. Now if you want to say that /maybe/ some of them dropped from a higher level, maybe they did. But I didn't see them drop.

I never get hit once by husk fireball when I am stand on higher ground than husks or obstacles (such as cars on westlonden or wooden fence on farm.) Not a single time up till now.

Oh, so you were using an exploit. Why didn't you say so in the first place. As for being able to simply stay at one spot, I'm sure you understand that the other perks just can't do that. They run out of ammo and have to reload.

How can "He just dont know how to kite with other perks...." false if you cannot do it and somebody can?

I haven't seen it and you haven't either. Or you would have mentioned it. And that scenario I mentioned before being "doable", BS. Sure, anything is "doable" if every single action in the game turns out favorable. But no one can count on it. That is like saying that predicting 100 coin flips in a row is "doable." Sure, anyone can see /how/ it can be done, but that doesn't mean every break goes that way. Sure, if enough weapons spawned. And if enough ammo boxes spawned. And enough low level zeds walked close enough to kill multiples with one shotgun shell. And if the FP spawned far enough away, with no specimens between you and them, so you can throw grenades without the chance of one of the grenades dropping close. And a siren doesn't ever trail an FP to destroy the grenades. Or a clot doesn't ever drop from a higher level or pop around the corner and grab you. Or a bloat doesn't surprise you from around a corner and block your vision. Or a crawler happens to jump and land on top of you so you have no idea where he is going to land.

I myself have kite 100+ zeds as demo once and as support or commando several times. And last week I mamanged to beat wave 7 of 7 on HoE with a freaking LEVEL THREE sharpshooter on westlonden.

Oooooooooo. So you happened to solo a wave where the FP popped early, you knew /when/ the FP was going to show up, you had all the ammo you could carry, and you had massive self heals. Wow. What a show of skill. You know that isn't the same AT ALL. In your /highly skilled/ scenario you had tons of advantages.

1) Massive selfheal
2) FP showed early when you were expecting him
3) No more FPs
4) Lowest possible number of specimens
5) Lowest health for all of the specimens
6) Full ammo
7) Solo plan

Now, let's go over why you lose those advantages when you have to kite 120+ specimens when the rest of the team dies

1) No massive selfheal
2) Can't plan on when the FP shows up
3) Multiple FPS spawn
4) Maximum specimens spawn. So when the team wipes out, there still could be 100+, 140+, 180+ specimens still on the map
5) After the team has wiped, new spawns have 1 player health. But those 30+ specimens that are already on map that have adjusted health, have max health.
6) Which leads to ammo. When the rest of the team wipes, there is a very good chance that there will be more specimens than if a player solos, but much of a player's ammo has been fired. Even 50% to 70% ammo left is a low number when there are 100+ specimens left.
7) When the team wipes, the surviving player usually isn't in the best spot. They are trying to save or heal the other players. They are firing massive amounts of ammo to save other players. Add in that the team just got wiped so there are specimens /everywhere/ already.

Zerkers can run. Melee weapons never run out of ammo. Zerkers can run right through a mob of specimens. No magnetic clot grab for them. Zerkers can /very quickly/ back up while continually attacking until they get clear.

The thing is, dont just assume NO OTHER PERK can solo 100+ zeds just because you cannot or never see someone do it

You haven't seen it either. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it hasn't been done because other perks can't.

(I consider a success when zed number hit 5, because only stupid mistakes or really bad luck can kill them, even fleshpound will auto-die when charging if zed number is > 5). Killing 70+ zeds by kiting with 3xx ping while instan-kill by a bad encounter is not the proof of "sharpshoter cannot kite".

So if the last number of a lottery ticket is off by five, do you consider that a winning ticket as well? As I said before "The very next time that I see a flamer, demo, sharpie, commando, or support kite 120+ specimens on wave 7 or later on suicidal or HoE will be the first time I see it."

 

[outofrealman]

I've seen sirens spawn in 4 numerous times. As for the times 8 spawned, I wasn't kiting. I was sitting in my usual double wheel spot in foundry and 8 sirens were a pack walking towards me from the other side of the left wheel. Now if you want to say that /maybe/ some of them dropped from a higher level, maybe they did. But I didn't see them drop.

If that really happen, it must be some kind of bug. Surely. Just like suddenly 4 fleshpound or only scrakes spawn together.

Oh, so you were using an exploit. Why didn't you say so in the first place. As for being able to simply stay at one spot, I'm sure you understand that the other perks just can't do that. They run out of ammo and have to reload.

Funny... how in the world is stand on a car an exploit? It not like zeds cant come at me. It just make husk cannot hit me 99.99% of the time. If you were the husk, you simply cannot hit a player if he is standing on a floor higher than you. Bacause you need a wal behind him to hurt him.

How can this exploit again? You sound just the same as people who found you can reset rage timer on fp and say: what an exploit!!!

I haven't seen it and you haven't either. Or you would have mentioned it. And that scenario I mentioned before being "doable", BS. Sure, anything is "doable" if every single action in the game turns out favorable. But no one can count on it. That is like saying that predicting 100 coin flips in a row is "doable." Sure, anyone can see /how/ it can be done, but that doesn't mean every break goes that way. Sure, if enough weapons spawned. And if enough ammo boxes spawned. And enough low level zeds walked close enough to kill multiples with one shotgun shell. And if the FP spawned far enough away, with no specimens between you and them, so you can throw grenades without the chance of one of the grenades dropping close. And a siren doesn't ever trail an FP to destroy the grenades. Or a clot doesn't ever drop from a higher level or pop around the corner and grab you. Or a bloat doesn't surprise you from around a corner and block your vision. Or a crawler happens to jump and land on top of you so you have no idea where he is going to land.

I HAVE seen non-berserker do it. After seeing some people do it while I myself have done it several times, well, this must be "as hard as predicting 100 coin flips in a row..."

Oooooooooo. So you happened to solo a wave where the FP popped early, you knew /when/ the FP was going to show up, you had all the ammo you could carry, and you had massive self heals. Wow. What a show of skill. You know that isn't the same AT ALL. In your /highly skilled/ scenario you had tons of advantages.

REALLY? You REALLY THINK a one-man worth fp cannot be kill by support or sharpshooter? Do you even know how fast fp goes down at that suituation? So soloing a wave while a team is dead I should NOT be self healing? What? Is that an exploit for you again?

WHAT is non-exploit?

1) Massive selfheal
2) FP showed early when you were expecting him
3) No more FPs
4) Lowest possible number of specimens
5) Lowest health for all of the specimens
6) Full ammo
7) Solo plan

1) I should not self heal when my team's dead? OK, in this suituation I cannot win even as berserker. May be you can.

2) When player is higher than 3, even you are the only one left, AT LEAST two wave of fp will spawn in one wave.

3) WHY there will be no-more fps? I can kite them anyways.

4) and 5) Dont talk like berserker fight 6-man worth zeds when they are the last man standing.

6) How can I have full ammo when my team's dead? Also... the thing is, we should be talking about 120-150 zeds or LESS. Because any more zed means the team is not gonna win no matter how and what you done in this wave.

7) Why is it wrong to have solo plan if you are the last man?

Now, let's go over why you lose those advantages when you have to kite 120+ specimens when the rest of the team dies

1) No massive selfheal
2) Can't plan on when the FP shows up
3) Multiple FPS spawn
4) Maximum specimens spawn. So when the team wipes out, there still could be 100+, 140+, 180+ specimens still on the map
5) After the team has wiped, new spawns have 1 player health. But those 30+ specimens that are already on map that have adjusted health, have max health.
6) Which leads to ammo. When the rest of the team wipes, there is a very good chance that there will be more specimens than if a player solos, but much of a player's ammo has been fired. Even 50% to 70% ammo left is a low number when there are 100+ specimens left.
7) When the team wipes, the surviving player usually isn't in the best spot. They are trying to save or heal the other players. They are firing massive amounts of ammo to save other players. Add in that the team just got wiped so there are specimens /everywhere/ already.

Oh man... that's why. You think I do ONLY solo... I am just saying I beat solo with EVEN A 3lv sharpshooter. If I were 6lv, I dont even need to kite those fp. They die when they spawn. And WHAT? Zeds with full health? Dont tell me you will get a full health fp while the whole team is dead because no one even shoot him. Then again, it is not important if you win this wave or not. ALSO, sharpshooter, RAPES fp no matter how many players are there. Scrakes, out of the way. And how ANY OTHER zed make the difference? Gorefasts and bloat is killed by decap and bleed out most of the time. Sirens and husk MAY need a few more shots. That's all.
And EVEN you end up having an fp with much health, under current setting, you can kite him. If that's a newly spawn fp, he dont have much health.

Zerkers can run. Melee weapons never run out of ammo. Zerkers can run right through a mob of specimens. No magnetic clot grab for them. Zerkers can /very quickly/ back up while continually attacking until they get clear.



You haven't seen it either. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it hasn't been done because other perks can't.



So if the last number of a lottery ticket is off by five, do you consider that a winning ticket as well? As I said before "The very next time that I see a flamer, demo, sharpie, commando, or support kite 120+ specimens on wave 7 or later on suicidal or HoE will be the first time I see it."

I have seen it, I have done it. (OK, may be you can give me the fake player mutator? I believe if i can do it before, I can do it again.) Or may be just stop the BS of "NO PERKS other than berserker can kite"

But then you will have BS like "you just get lucky to run into an armour" or "you just happen to find that much ammo boxes".

Lastly, have you even see me opposing the idead of "berserker dont need ammo, so it can kite any number of zed"? yes, I agree with that.
But the thing is, if the team left you too much zeds, who freaking care if you can win this wave or not? That team will end up wiping the next wave anyways. If there's only 120-150 zeds or less, ammo will not really make much difference.

Who will care if a berserker kite and kill 1000 zeds in one wave in a 20-man server?

 

[nutterbutter]

If that really happen, it must be some kind of bug. Surely. Just like suddenly 4 fleshpound or only scrakes spawn together.

Of course the 8 siren thing was a bug or extreme rarity. But my point was that just because 3 husks are shooting at the player doesn't mean the player is "doing something wrong." I was just on a mountainpass game and the trader was at the picnic tables. I was running down the hill when wave 7 started. A husk, FP, and assorted specimens spawned behind the trader. A husk and assorted specimens spawned on the road where the ammo drops. And a husk with assorted specimens spawned on the hill. All three were shooting at me from the get go.

Funny... how in the world is stand on a car an exploit?

Standing on a car isn't an exploit. Standing on a car as a safe spot because the husk's fireball code has a bug is an exploit. You are /exploiting/ that bug.

I HAVE seen non-berserker do it. After seeing some people do it while I myself have done it several times, well, this must be "as hard as predicting 100 coin flips in a row..."

Yeah. Ok. Sure. That is why when I first mentioned it, you said some story about you soloing over 100 specimens with a 300 ping.

REALLY? You REALLY THINK a one-man worth fp cannot be kill by support or sharpshooter? Do you even know how fast fp goes down at that suituation? So soloing a wave while a team is dead I should NOT be self healing? What? Is that an exploit for you again?

WHAT is non-exploit?



1) I should not self heal when my team's dead? OK, in this suituation I cannot win even as berserker. May be you can.

Ok, this is where our conversation stops. You simply aren't reading what I am typing. I said there was a difference between you soloing wave 7 and finishing a wave after the team is wiped. I then listed the advantages of soloing and why you don't have them after a team wipes.

I would have thought "You know that isn't the same AT ALL. In your /highly skilled/ scenario you had tons of advantages. " then listing the advantages was obvious. Then following with "Now, let's go over why you lose those advantages when you have to kite 120+ specimens when the rest of the team dies" would again be obvious. I even gave you a numbered list and matched them. And somehow you first response was "I should not self heal when my team's dead?"

BTW, yes, that was exactly what I meant. I meant that when a player has to kite after the team dies, he can't self-heal. Wow.

But the thing is, if the team left you too much zeds, who freaking care if you can win this wave or not?

Ummm, that's the point. Zerker gets out of that situation no matter what. You know, the whole OP thing. The point of the thread.

 

[TheAlpha]

Of course the 8 siren thing was a bug or extreme rarity. But my point was that just because 3 husks are shooting at the player doesn't mean the player is "doing something wrong." I was just on a mountainpass game and the trader was at the picnic tables. I was running down the hill when wave 7 started. A husk, FP, and assorted specimens spawned behind the trader. A husk and assorted specimens spawned on the road where the ammo drops. And a husk with assorted specimens spawned on the hill. All three were shooting at me from the get go.



Standing on a car isn't an exploit. Standing on a car as a safe spot because the husk's fireball code has a bug is an exploit. You are /exploiting/ that bug.



Yeah. Ok. Sure. That is why when I first mentioned it, you said some story about you soloing over 100 specimens with a 300 ping.



Ok, this is where our conversation stops. You simply aren't reading what I am typing. I said there was a difference between you soloing wave 7 and finishing a wave after the team is wiped. I then listed the advantages of soloing and why you don't have them after a team wipes.

I would have thought "You know that isn't the same AT ALL. In your /highly skilled/ scenario you had tons of advantages. " then listing the advantages was obvious. Then following with "Now, let's go over why you lose those advantages when you have to kite 120+ specimens when the rest of the team dies" would again be obvious. I even gave you a numbered list and matched them. And somehow you first response was "I should not self heal when my team's dead?"

BTW, yes, that was exactly what I meant. I meant that when a player has to kite after the team dies, he can't self-heal. Wow.



Ummm, that's the point. Zerker gets out of that situation no matter what. You know, the whole OP thing. The point of the thread.

no its not really a bug if the husk cant hit you on a car....its actually plain ol bad coding thats all.
so many games that use the same unreal engine and dont have this issue is due ti great coding work and not lazy run of the mill work thats so easy to pass off as a bug.....lol

 

[outofrealman]

So you insist to argue something that happen very rare (a team gets raped while one of them make it out of the hell hole), and the person just happened to have enough skill and win that wave and talk like berserker is EXTREMELY overpowered and give out many suggestions (I've read quite some of your suggestions) that nerf berserker when they are with the team or suituations that berserker is just as strong as other perks, OR, the suggestion just doesn't work.

Berserker only out perform other perk WHEN:
1. you are the only one left
2. zed number is high enough to make other perks run out of ammo no matter what

Of cos kiting without speed bonus is harder, but you just assume that nobody can do that. Yes, berserker get advantage in kiting. And if you are the only one left, berserkers start to get overpower. The more zed is remaining, the more over-power berserker is. I never disagreed this statement.

HOWEVER, able to run out of a camping spot when the whole team gets wipe DOES NOT happen as much as you would like to sound like. Also, it is just UNIMPORTANT to discuss suituations where 200+ zeds is left. If a team sucks like that, and that is a late wave (7-10), the team simply dont have enough time to share money or even get enough money to survive the next wave.

What I ALWAYS try to say is, BLANCE THE FREAKING GAME for the suituation that happens most of the time or intented game play. I am all for changes that
1. dont punish berserkers play as intended to a point that they consider to switch perk
2. dont kill off any possibilities for perk dont have very high firepower to survive when they are alone

Yeah, berserker in can kite 1000+ zeds in 20-man servers. But why you want to balance for that suituation? You seems to play with a lot of good berserkers and that's funny that all games you played berserkers is the only possible guy to be the last one, and everytime that berserker can win you that wave (at least you sound like that). Which, as many people posted here (including me), dont really happen "that much" in their life of KF.



And btw... really... WHAT is not exploits? Or I can have a bunch of these:

You are exploiting the fact that stalkers cannot attack while moving.
And you are exploiting the fact that zeds cannot run trough each other and using stalkers to block everything behind her in narrow hallways.
You are exploiting the fact that scrakes will never rage unless their health is lower than 75%, so you can ignore it and run away.
And you are exploiting the fact that gorefasts cannot charge without a head.
And you are exploiting the fact that crawlers cannot change their direction in mid air, so you can dodge them.

What the hell? Its not like on some map you get yourself into a place that nothing can hit you. ALL THESE including the husk issue is just "knowledge" about each zed. You can do those on ANY MAPS.

 

[Aze]

What I ALWAYS try to say is, BLANCE THE FREAKING GAME for the suituation that happens most of the time or intented game play. I am all for changes that
1. dont punish berserkers play as intended to a point that they consider to switch perk
2. dont kill off any possibilities for perk dont have very high firepower to survive when they are alone

I agreed with you outofrealman, in particular this point here. And that's EXACTLY what me and Scary_ghost's suggestion would not touch either.

Making it so that a MISSED swing from an FP does not reset the rage timer ONLY affects the Berserker's (and to a much smaller extent, a melee Medic's) overpowered ability to kite FPs so easily with his unlimitedly lasting perked weapons. Removing this would make the Berserker required to use REGULAR LoS-ing on the FP and he needs to use ranged weapons to kill of the FP, which also means limited ammo to do so, which also means that the Berserker have to deal with them just like all the other anti-FP-weak perks (like Medic, Commando and Firebug) have to do as well!

It doesn't nerf him in any other way. He is still powerful (like he should be) as a frontline tank and Scrake+trashkiller, and it doesn't remove other perks' ability with low firepower to survive when they are alone.

 

[Nanostrike]

You are exploiting the fact that stalkers cannot attack while moving.
And you are exploiting the fact that zeds cannot run trough each other and using stalkers to block everything behind her in narrow hallways.
You are exploiting the fact that scrakes will never rage unless their health is lower than 75%, so you can ignore it and run away.
And you are exploiting the fact that gorefasts cannot charge without a head.
And you are exploiting the fact that crawlers cannot change their direction in mid air, so you can dodge them.

What the hell? Its not like on some map you get yourself into a place that nothing can hit you. ALL THESE including the husk issue is just "knowledge" about each zed. You can do those on ANY MAPS.

People really need to learn the difference between EXPLOIT (Unintended, often a glitch or programming oversight) and GAMEPLAY MECHANIC (Intended, however flawed or unpopular it may be)

 

[outofrealman]

I agreed with you outofrealman, in particular this point here. And that's EXACTLY what me and Scary_ghost's suggestion would not touch either.

Making it so that a MISSED swing from an FP does not reset the rage timer ONLY affects the Berserker's (and to a much smaller extent, a melee Medic's) overpowered ability to kite FPs so easily with his unlimitedly lasting perked weapons. Removing this would make the Berserker required to use REGULAR LoS-ing on the FP and he needs to use ranged weapons to kill of the FP, which also means limited ammo to do so, which also means that the Berserker have to deal with them just like all the other anti-FP-weak perks (like Medic, Commando and Firebug) have to do as well!

It doesn't nerf him in any other way. He is still powerful (like he should be) as a frontline tank and Scrake+trashkiller, and it doesn't remove other perks' ability with low firepower to survive when they are alone.

And this change ONLY affect rambo berserkers (as I said, you only need 5 hits to kill fps if you are the last one). Where nutter (and many people here) just care about those rare suituation of berserker being the last one AND able to win.

OK, I must add this before someone post anything mis-leading: I dont oppose this change.

 

[nutterbutter]

So you insist to argue something that happen very rare (a team gets raped while one of them make it out of the hell hole)...

If you think that situation is rare, then I would love to hear of a situation that you think is common. After all, who has ever seen a team getting wiped with a zerker finishing the wave?

Of cos kiting without speed bonus is harder, but you just assume that nobody can do that.

We've gone over this. Your definition of kiting "For the word kiting, it dont even make any difference for both definition." and mine are completely different. You've said that some perk running with 12 specimens behind them is kiting. I don't consider that kiting.

One last time "The very next time that I see a flamer, demo, sharpie, commando, or support kite 120+ specimens on wave 7 or later on suicidal or HoE will be the first time I see it."

Do I think it can be done? Sure. If every single thing lines up perfectly to the player's advantage. But there is always a lack of ammo, random spawns, reload pauses, specimens separating and popping from around corners, clot grabs, and so on. But luck would play a bigger part in it that skill and it definitely wouldn't be reproducible.

Yeah, berserker in can kite 1000+ zeds in 20-man servers. But why you want to balance for that suituation?

I don't think that I have asked to balance for a 20 player game. I may have. Let me check.


Nope. I didn't ask for that.

You seems to play with a lot of good berserkers and that's funny that all games you played berserkers is the only possible guy to be the last one, and everytime that berserker can win you that wave (at least you sound like that). Which, as many people posted here (including me), dont really happen "that much" in their life of KF.

I have no idea what you meant.

And btw... really... WHAT is not exploits? Or I can have a bunch of these:

First, there is a huge difference between an exploit 'noun' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming) and exploit 'verb' exploit - use or manipulate to one's advantage

You are exploiting the fact that stalkers cannot attack while moving.
And you are exploiting the fact that zeds cannot run trough each other and using stalkers to block everything behind her in narrow hallways.
You are exploiting the fact that scrakes will never rage unless their health is lower than 75%, so you can ignore it and run away.
And you are exploiting the fact that gorefasts cannot charge without a head.
And you are exploiting the fact that crawlers cannot change their direction in mid air, so you can dodge them.

What the hell? Its not like on some map you get yourself into a place that nothing can hit you. ALL THESE including the husk issue is just "knowledge" about each zed. You can do those on ANY MAPS.

Did you also want to list that sirens can't scream without a head is exploiting them?
Or that a bloat can't attack once it has been gibbed is exploiting them?
Or that clots can't drop through the floor to be exploiting them?

Did you really just make the argument that a crawler can't change direction in mid-air was an exploit?

Wow. Yeah. We're done.

 

[Nanostrike]

Did you really just make the argument that a crawler can't change direction in mid-air was an exploit?

Wow. Yeah. We're done.

If you really go read through the thread again...with the exception of a few good posts, that's pretty much the level of arguments this thread is producing.

The last "Zerker is IMBA!" thread ended with people claiming that the Clot's grab was "Magnetic", "Impossible to escape", and "Totally gamebreaking", so this was expected.

Generally, despite the intentions of it's creator, nothing good comes of a "X is overpowered, y/n?" thread, no matter what game. WoW forums, TF2 forums, Left4Dead forums, it doesn't matter. It's just the type of thread that devolves into over-exaggerations, personal attacks, and eventually, moderator intervention if no one stops it...

If you don't believe me, just go on the TF2 forums and make a well-thought out, intellectual argument that ANY class is "Overpowered" and post it. Then get some popcorn and watch the thread either drag on for days without anything really being solved or immediately start a flame war.

 

[Bill Nye The Science Spy]

i believe that berserkers are NOT overpowered. A Support and Demo can easily waste a whole entire group of enemies and can easily kill FPs with aa + hunty spam or 2 pipes.Berserker can also kill a Flesh pound but it takes him longer.Supports can waste just about everything he can and can do it from a longer range and he can weld and unweld doors so fast,All his shotguns have major penetration,He can carry 9 more blocks than any other class. And he can carry more grenades.In return the Berserker gets increased speed and damage reduction along with not being able to be grabbed by clots.Same with Demo they really cant do it at short range but at medium and long they can waste everything.They can also buy pipes for cheap and carry 4 times as much as any other class and can carry as much grenades as Support and get explosive Resistance.

I voted that they are even like the other classes

 

[outofrealman]

If you think that situation is rare, then I would love to hear of a situation that you think is common. After all, who has ever seen a team getting wiped with a zerker finishing the wave?

Hve you even read this post? Most people here vote AND post that berserker is balanced. And most of the refering to their gameplay of berserkers sticking with the team. I dont really often see people posting these:
1. team gets wipe
2. one of the player make it out of surround
3. that guys is a berserker
4. he win that wave

If you REALLY seeing that much berserker soloing a remaining wave, you really should consider make some friends and then "whole team but berserker gets wipe" will not even happen.

We've gone over this. Your definition of kiting "For the word kiting, it dont even make any difference for both definition." and mine are completely different. You've said that some perk running with 12 specimens behind them is kiting. I don't consider that kiting.

One last time "The very next time that I see a flamer, demo, sharpie, commando, or support kite 120+ specimens on wave 7 or later on suicidal or HoE will be the first time I see it."

OK, OK!! "able to win after ANY other players are dead", is this satisfy you now?

If you have 12 zeds behind you, meaning 20 is in front of you... well...

Do I think it can be done? Sure. If every single thing lines up perfectly to the player's advantage. But there is always a lack of ammo, random spawns, reload pauses, specimens separating and popping from around corners, clot grabs, and so on. But luck would play a bigger part in it that skill and it definitely wouldn't be reproducible.

I dont think other perks need "that much" luck like you would like to sound. You also sound like berserker can win no matter how ****ty the spawn is and how bad his luck gets.

I don't think that I have asked to balance for a 20 player game. I may have. Let me check.


Nope. I didn't ask for that.

I am saying you are asking for balance for something dont really happen that much. Which most of your suggestions just hurting intended game play and overall suituations.

I have no idea what you meant.

What I mean is what you are saying is NOT most players run into. YOU run into a bunch of bad teams with good berserkers all the time while most of us here dont.

First, there is a huge difference between an exploit 'noun' [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(online_gaming[/URL]) and exploit 'verb' exploit - use or manipulate to one's advantage



Did you also want to list that sirens can't scream without a head is exploiting them?
Or that a bloat can't attack once it has been gibbed is exploiting them?
Or that clots can't drop through the floor to be exploiting them?

Did you really just make the argument that a crawler can't change direction in mid-air was an exploit?

Wow. Yeah. We're done.

Again... noun or verb is not even important...

What are you trying to say here anyway? You say I am just exploiting, so husk cannot hit me. So I dont deserve those wins? IS THAT what you mean?

Then have you EVER make use of the nature of stalkers cannot attack while moving?

If you didn't mean that, why you said that?


EDIT: If you can think of ANY way to fix that suituation YOU keep encountering, while dont hurt any intended gameplay or teamworks, I am sure EVERYBODY will love to see that change. The main thing is berserkers IS balanced 90% of the time. They only overpower in SOME suituations. Its not like the old M14 where you body shot killing everything and having a hell lot of ammo. Because this statement apply to ALL suituations back then.