Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

[outofrealman]

Well my main suggestion it to have the Fleshpound continously rage once his healths drops below a certain figure. So he would stop and rage, run at the player and hit them, stop and rage immediately again, and repeat until either dead or he kills his target.

Sadly that did prompt me to run some numbers and (assuming I'm right) I do see the problem.

Spoiler!

There is only about 1200 hit points between the head health of a 1 man FP and a 6 man FP. (2756-1225 = 1531) You dimish this value to 33% health and your only talking a difference of about 400 health (33% of 6-man head health = 805.62 (2756 / 3 = 918.67), 33% of 1-man head health = 404.25 (1225 / 3 = 408.3))

Obvoiusly hits to the body are much greatly sparsed but any Berserker worth his salt would hit the head, and an alt Fire Axe headshots does about 340 damage on a Fleshpound (275 * 1.25 = 343.75 [fp have 50% resistance while berserker double melee damage]). This equates to killing the 33% Head Hp Fleshpound in 2 hits for a solo FP and 3 hits for a 6 man FP.

Real numbers in spoiler.

The issue that I now understand that you've been elluding to all this time is that if you try to make him poor at killing the FP in a multiplayer game you make him poor at it in a solo game by default as well...

Only way to save the idea...

Spoiler!

I guess is to make it so that the Fleshpound gets a buff to his melee weapon resistance (I think its 0.5 now)... but I'm not really overly keen on that idea, cause its a bit of a balance nightmare.

I suppose if its made to say 70% melee resistance (or times melee damage to the Flehspound by 0.3 instead of 0.5) then it would take 2 alt fire axe headstrikes to decap a solo Fleshpound once is starts continously raging and 4 to decap one in a 6 man game. I imagine 4 would be quite hard to do when he's chewing on your face

EDIT: Although after reading scary ghosts post in the weapon damage and specimens health PDF thread I've learned these values are out of date... so they'll need reworking anyway

Hell... I hate maths...
If 70% resistance is applied:
Each axe alt-fire head shot do 275 * 2 * 1.25 * 0.3 = 206.25 dmg to fps.
Solo fp needs 6 hits to decap, and fp consitanly rage after 4th hit.
6-man fp needs 12 hits to decap, fp constanly rage after 8th hit while fp have a total health of 4256. Meaning the team have a constanly raging fp with ~72% health if the zerker fails. Also, if you increase the resistance, fps decap by axe will not get the decap bonuse as much as it gets now. Meaning fps decap by the new axe potentially having too much health. Which will lead to a weird play style to miss fp's head on purpose. Because you dont want a headless fp killing you. (0 head health is lower than 33% of total head health)
This will make rambos need to take 1 hit from a raging fleshpound which doesn't kill the berserker. So any sirens near by will kill him. It seems "OK" for me. But keep in mind the worst case is the team geting a constanly raging fleshpound with ~72% health. And you are in fact benifited by missing the head on both mutiplayer or solo play...

This seems like the optimal setup kind of change for this particular idea, but as I say I'm not sure how keen I am on it cause it seems little band aidy... but at least now I'm up to speed

Lastly, I still think that given the Bersekers numerous strengths against all speicmens with his very good survivability, he does need something to hold him a back a bit. I feel with the right alterations the FP can be the best candidate for being his weakness. Although all perks can use the LoS tactic, its really only the Zerker and Medic that can use this step in and dodge attack style. I personally feel that both are kind of cheap, so I favour either that pause idea or the your rage calming idea, and I am seeking some way of removing the effectiveness of this dodge technique.

I agree Sharpshooters and Demommen can kill the 6 man FP solo with good efficiency, the reason I don't begrudge them for it is their obvoius weaknesses against alot of the trash specimens. (4 pistol body shots to kill a crawler for example.)

That's why fleshpound should not be keep mentioning... the real thing is "berserker kite much better" not "berserker kill fp single handy". Killing fp is only one factor in "kiting".


Overall: Guess its back to the old drawing board as they say

And now medic and commandos with only perked weapons become the only two perk that cannot kill fleshpounds without taking at least one hit. Even on solo. (I assume you can NEVER prevent the rage from fleshpounds by running away, so goodbye to ak+SCAR commandos, you dont have a chance unless you have nearly full armour)
And double pound is unbeatable by firebugs too.

So, I support to reverse the rage timer by losing LOS more.

 

[Aze]

I don't think there is a need to go that much over the top with some kind of continuous rage. I'd rather just make it so that if the Fleshpound misses a swing, it doesn't reset the rage-timer. To reset it, he needs to actually HIT something. That prevents (especially) the Zerker from kiting the FP so easily, but doesn't make the Fleshie completely impossible to kill for other perks either (using LoS to calm him down)

Yes, the Zerker would still be able to kite the FP, but it would require one heck of a lot more effort to do so, thus, the Zerker is no longer a perk you put on "FP duty" and isn't that incredibly good at soloing everything.

 

[outofrealman]

I don't think there is a need to go that much over the top with some kind of continuous rage. I'd rather just make it so that if the Fleshpound misses a swing, it doesn't reset the rage-timer. To reset it, he needs to actually HIT something. That prevents (especially) the Zerker from kiting the FP so easily, but doesn't make the Fleshie completely impossible to kill for other perks either (using LoS to calm him down)

Yes, the Zerker would still be able to kite the FP, but it would require one heck of a lot more effort to do so, thus, the Zerker is no longer a perk you put on "FP duty" and isn't that incredibly good at soloing everything.

Rage timer reset is added only because TWI want perks with not very powerful weapons have a chance to kill fleshpounds.
So un-advoidable rage will be out of the consideraton. (pause rage timer WILL make rage un-advoidable)

 

[Aze]

Rage timer reset is added only because TWI want perks with not very powerful weapons have a chance to kill fleshpounds.
So un-advoidable rage will be out of the consideraton. (pause rage timer WILL make rage un-advoidable)

Umm, yeah I know, and im not saying the rage time resetter should be 100% removed. Fyi, there are 2 ways to reset the FP's rage timer:
1) The person who is targetted by a FP, if he breaks the line of sight with the FP, the rage timer is reset.
2) If the FP attacks a target, it resets the rage timer as well (wether he is in a raged state or not). However, this does not require the FP to actually HIT something, even a missed swing resets the timer.

Breaking the FPs line of sight should still be able to reset the rage timer (imo), however, what i (and Scary_ghost too?) am suggesting is to remove the function where a FP has it rage timer reset if he swings at a target and MISSES. It should only reset the rage timer in the second function if he actually HITS something. This would make it harder for Zerkers to kite Fleshpounds so easily, without removing the possibility to line-of-sight kite them, which ALL perks can use to (lengthely so, and with limited ammo) kill a Fleshpound even on their own.

That's what could be done AT FIRST, to nerf the Zerker indirectly quite a bit. Then if the Fleshpound could need some more functions (like the continuous rage thing suggested by Undedd) to make it generally scarier, i think should be something discussed AFTERWARDS (as that would affect ALL perks)

 

[outofrealman]

Umm, yeah I know, and im not saying the rage time resetter should be 100% removed. Fyi, there are 2 ways to reset the FP's rage timer:
1) The person who is targetted by a FP, if he breaks the line of sight with the FP, the rage timer is reset.
2) If the FP attacks a target, it resets the rage timer as well (wether he is in a raged state or not). However, this does not require the FP to actually HIT something, even a missed swing resets the timer.

Breaking the FPs line of sight should still be able to reset the rage timer (imo), however, what i (and Scary_ghost too?) am suggesting is to remove the function where a FP has it rage timer reset if he swings at a target and MISSES. It should only reset the rage timer in the second function if he actually HITS something. This would make it harder for Zerkers to kite Fleshpounds so easily, without removing the possibility to line-of-sight kite them, which ALL perks can use to (lengthely so, and with limited ammo) kill a Fleshpound even on their own.

That's what could be done AT FIRST, to nerf the Zerker indirectly quite a bit. Then if the Fleshpound could need some more functions (like the continuous rage thing suggested by Undedd) to make it generally scarier, i think should be something discussed AFTERWARDS (as that would affect ALL perks)

So you think "because berserker need to run up to a fleshpound's face to melee" then "they cannot break LOS in the next 10 seconds?"

This, of cos... is not the case... you just require the berserker just take his hits or ONLY melee fleshpound near a corner. You make it more annoying to kite (and take much more time if you dont want to get hurt), not more difficult...

 

[the 1st wasted]

OK, again. Why are you all so fixated on the FP? The Zerker does have weaknesses, as I, and others have said before. Crawlers, Sirens, husks, and to an extent the scrake. 2 Husks on HoE can be a big problem for a Zerker, esp when he has 20 or so assorted Zeds infront of him. crawlers jump out of everywhere and often kill, or cause a Zerker to get killed, Sirens come around corners and kill us while we are trying to deal with something else, and so on.

Comming in here and repeatedly saying that the Zerker has no weaknesess is completely untrue, and droning on and on about the FP is very short sighted at best.

 

[outofrealman]

OK, again. Why are you all so fixated on the FP? The Zerker does have weaknesses, as I, and others have said before. Crawlers, Sirens, husks, and to an extent the scrake. 2 Husks on HoE can be a big problem for a Zerker, esp when he has 20 or so assorted Zeds infront of him. crawlers jump out of everywhere and often kill, or cause a Zerker to get killed, Sirens come around corners and kill us while we are trying to deal with something else, and so on.

Comming in here and repeatedly saying that the Zerker has no weaknesess is completely untrue, and droning on and on about the FP is very short sighted at best.

I see their point, because berserker have resistance (which is what berserker need), so all zeds you mention are bigger threat for other perks.

Even berserker dont gain speed bonus, his perked weapon make them run faster than any perks with perked weapons anyways.

However, yes, the real problem is not the fp. I think that's about ammo... the more zeds com into play, the more overpower berserker gets, because no matter what berserker dont have ammo issue. But like I said... if there are REALLY that much zeds left for berserker, no matter that berserker win that wave or not, it dont really matter.

Well... I explain myself quite clear already I think. So I may just discuss the ideas the community come up. Such as what will REALLY happen when a change is applied.

 

[the 1st wasted]

I do not see how they are a bigger threat for other perks. SS can 1 shot everything below a Scrake while it is still at a safe distance, Demo and commando can kill it at a distance, Support can jump out from behind a corner or some other thing and blast them before they can attack, whereas a Zerker has to either get in melee range, or try killing them with a non perked gun, they are not that easy to hit (Husks) when you have multiple zeds in front of them, and if it is more than one Husk you will get knocked you down to almost no health before you can get more than one, if you even kill one on the first try, and kill or not you still have to pull back and heal before going at it again. Even if they in fact were a bigger threat to other perk, my point that the zerker does have weaknesess still remains valid.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Even if they in fact were a bigger threat to other perk, my point that the zerker does have weaknesess still remains valid.

Yeah, we've all sort of settled that the stats are pretty much alright since the Berserker is well balanced when the team is turtling (although its up for debate that 30% is a tad too quick ), the problem is he is incredibly effective at kiting.

Other classes when kiting have things that slow them down and cause problems, Berserkers don't really get slowed down by anything, and the only time they really get stuck is if they get sandwiched in a narrow corridor. Otherwise they just run like the clappers and kill specimens 1 by 1, and the fact is the kite Berserker has the capacity to kill every specimen 1 on 1 via some tactic or another (unlike say the Medic, Commando or Firebug).

The same in theory can be said for the Demoman, Sharpshooter and Support but due to where their perk bonuses lie they are forced to deal with the different specimens as and when they get near them.

E.g. If a clot or bunch of crawlers spawn just around the corner as you get to it, then these classes must eliminate them because they cannot out run them and certainly cannot tank them. The Berserker on the other hand can afford to take a couple of hits, and cannot be stopped by the clot grab, so majority of the time he can pick and choose when to engage his targets as he sees fit.

I kept pushing for the Fleshpound fix as his automatic rage is a wild card that forces him to be dealt with, making kiting him alot harder. Sadly it doesn't work as the counter to it is to step in, slap it in the face and step back quickly to avoid his swing, wait a couple of seconds, then do it again. This keeps the FP docile (even while remaining in LoS), and even if the |Zerk gets hit, it isnt enough to kill him so he jsut heals up and carries on. Thusly this creates a situation where the kite Berserker can effectively beat every specimen (6-man health or nay) while kiting alone quite comfortably, once he masters how to do it.

The kicker is trying to find something that adresses this incredible versatility when ktiing, without making the Berserker suck... sadly my idea won't really work, so I'm racking my brains trying to think of something new

 

[outofrealman]

The kicker is trying to find something that adresses this incredible versatility when ktiing, without making the Berserker suck... sadly my idea won't really work, so I'm racking my brains trying to think of something new

TBH your last idea is not "that bad" compare to other's idea or your perious idea... if can can accept:
1. in some cases the team have a constanly raging fp with ~72% health if the zerker fails.
2. missing the head is in fact benifiting berserker....

In fact decreasin the resistance of ranged attack should work I think... cos that's much harder to kite and if you stay with the team, sirens bloats and husks ALL go down fast by your teamates. All three ranged zed are SLOW. And without resistance, bloats actually HURT.

If you kite for enough time, you end up catching up with the "tail" of the big group of zeds. What zed are slowest? Bloat scrakes and siren.

 

[nutterbutter]

I do not see how they are a bigger threat for other perks. SS can 1 shot everything below a Scrake while it is still at a safe distance, Demo and commando can kill it at a distance, Support can jump out from behind a corner or some other thing and blast them before they can attack, whereas a Zerker has to either get in melee range, or try killing them with a non perked gun, they are not that easy to hit (Husks) when you have multiple zeds in front of them, and if it is more than one Husk you will get knocked you down to almost no health before you can get more than one, if you even kill one on the first try, and kill or not you still have to pull back and heal before going at it again. Even if they in fact were a bigger threat to other perk, my point that the zerker does have weaknesess still remains valid.

All of this is covered here http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=47088

The zerker has no weaknesses. Husks? Zerker handles them easily. Multiple husks? Only the firebug has an easier time with them. Crawlers? Zerker 1 shot kills them as well. At range. Sirens? Zerker can run away, close in for the kill, or kill at range. Multiple sirens? Zerker has the speed and the resistance to get out of there.

Everyone talks about the zerker as if he is always in a 3 specimen wide tunnel, armed with a machete, and he has to fight through 60 specimens to get to the sirens or husks. It is never like that.

A perfect example. Put a sharpie on the road with an xbow with 3 or 4 husks up the road. Sharpie can't run to the left or right and by the time he fires one shot at least 3 or 4 fireballs are heading his way. Before those shots hit, more are fired. Sharpie is dead. Zerker can run and dodge. Sharpie is too slow to run an dodge.

Now, let's put those husks with specimens in front. Sharpie is equally screwed. Every time that husk fires, the specimens move. Moving specimens means no head shots. No headshots mean unperked damage. Same as zerker with unperked weapons but the zerker has speed and permanent armor.

Can't do more than 100% damage to a zed. So that unperked hand cannon or LAR can easily kill the crawler. A group jump on you? Zerker can actually run away. If the sharpie or support don't kill of them before a reload then you can kiss that player's armor or life away as the crawlers jump around for the kill.

People who think the zerker has weaknesses talk about how hard the crawler is to kill with melee weapons or how the siren or husk can pummel the zerker from a distance. But in the game, no one plays that way. Zerkers equip ranged weapons to kill the crawlers and sirens and they have the speed to separate and heal or reload when they need.

Zerker has no weaknesses in the game.

 

[Undedd Jester]

In fact decreasin the resistance of ranged attack should work I think... cos that's much harder to kite and if you stay with the team, sirens bloats and husks ALL go down fast by your teamates. All three ranged zed are SLOW. And without resistance, bloats actually HURT.

If you kite for enough time, you end up catching up with the "tail" of the big group of zeds. What zed are slowest? Bloat scrakes and siren.

Yeah makes sense. I agree that would definately nerf the Zerker, my only concern is that I've accepted that killing the Scrake and Fleshpound can be done regularly by pro's, but it isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world to do.

My worry is that if we make it so that these 3 specimens cause the Berserker alot of issues, and he has to be a talented Zerker to beat the FP and Scrake then it will likely make the learning curb something like this _/

That being said, I'm more a Medic veteran, rather than a Berserker veteran, so as long as it doesn't hurt the Berserker too much when he's staying with the team and turtling I'd accept it

 

[the 1st wasted]

@Undedd: Your idea sounds good, it will make it harder, but not impossible, will cause us to have to drop differant wepeons at key points in the map to deal with the FP.

@Nutter: I read your post, and the ones after it as well. I am not going to repeat what several others said in reply, I will however say that IMO you have no clue how to Zerk, and obviously have never had to solo on HoE as a Zerker. I do not mean this aggressivly or as an insult, but rather what I get from your posts when compaired to my experiance Zerking on HoE.

 

[krispyk]

I'd like give my 2 cents on this matter. I have read all your posts Undedd Jester and while you've toned down your arguments and became more open as the thread progressed, in my opinion, this was more a rant initiated by your bad experiences playing the game as of late rather than a constructive criticism of the recent game changes.

"I have never gotten truly pissed off with Killing Floor before, but now I can't play it for more than 20 minutes without rage quitting off it. I have recently set up for my servers next payment to be paid for the full year... but in its current state, I'm not sure I am going to renew it..."

I want you to know this doesn't help your cause and I don't think it contributes anything to this discussion. I'm sure people don't care for this either.

Also, you rage quit from your own server?

"Teamwork in modern KF has been well and truly shot in the foot. In my mind, KF was meant to be a team based game, working together to overcome each others weaknesses and fighting as a squad to survive.

This doesn't exist anymore. You pick anything other than Berserker or Medic and you better be a damned good shot, cause chances are your on your own."

That is just plain wrong. You're playing with the wrong people then. I play with friends and we make plans on what to do. When we get wiped out, we get a good laugh from it and think about how we can improve our chances. No raging at all. It's a game. Your sour experiences have all been in public settings (people you don't know joining the server) and you have your own server to get rid of problem players. You can't always expect a cohesive strategy/gameplay when you're in a pub playing with people you don't know.

As for my opinion on the berserker, since I play mostly Hell on Earth for the past few weeks (suicidal before the patch), I voted it's alright based on my past hoe games. For your information, I play mostly support so there's nothing personal here. I do share some of the concerns that have been posted here but after recalling that KF had beta versions with incremental changes to implement balance changes, I'm okay with how things are set up right now. No one setup will make everyone happy. While not all-encompassing of the KF demographic, the majority of the votes tell me the game settings are sufficient, at least for the time being.

 

[Undedd Jester]

I will admit I haven't enjoyed 80% of the games I've played lately. Sadly all my friends no longer play Killing Floor and majority of the players in the forums live in foreign countries which means someone has to play with a high ping.

Your right it is because I have been playing with the wrong people. But you see this is my arguement dude, and I still stand by my earlier posts, just with alot less rage.

The problem is he is incredibly effective at kiting.

Other classes when kiting have things that slow them down and cause problems, Berserkers don't really get slowed down by anything, and the only time they really get stuck is if they get sandwiched in a narrow corridor. Otherwise they just run like the clappers and kill specimens 1 by 1, and the fact is the kite Berserker has the capacity to kill every specimen 1 on 1 via some tactic or another (unlike say the Medic, Commando or Firebug).

You can't force people to play KF the way its intended if they don't want to. The only thing you can do is make it so a certain tactic is less effective to encourage people to play a certain way.

The problem with playing with pubbers is there are alot of very selfish players out there who don't play with the team spirit that makes KF so good.

The reason why it creates such a problem is when other classes have been overpowered, people merely aim to get the most kills and generally play unsportsmanlike. This can make the game a little bland but as a pro you could at least focus on doing your job and still make the game to be to some degree about teamwork.

The Berserker pub players on the other hand tend to go off by themselves and leave their squad to die because they can survive easier on their own using the tactic I described above. This is tolerable if 1 player does it, but HoE is very unforgiving, and if you have 2+ players suddenly switch to Zerker and more or less abandon you... well it just doesn't end well.

It leaves you playing as say a Sharpshooter surrounded by a tonne of crawlers, or a Firebug getting charged by multiple gorefasts, or even in the situation where a Fleshpound is coming to chew on you, and you have to kill the 10 specimens about to interfere with your shots all by yourself. Simply it makes it very hard for me to even survive because I tend to play the classes with a defined weakness.

If the Berserker remains unchanged, he is still going to be the best class to survive with and these types of players will still be floating around.

I would much rather address this issue here and try and work a way that brings the Berserker someway back in line with the other perks while kiting to discourage this type of play, than just start dishing out bans in my server because people aren't playing the way I want them to play.

 

[the 1st wasted]

I feel your pain Undedd, but it is a 2 way street. Like when I'm in a server with 3 other Zerkers and then 2 people join as non-zerkers and camp, which causes mas spawning problems for us, plus they usualy die within the 1st couple of minutes leaving us with many extra zeds to deal with.

You should get new KF friends, and when you have a couple, password your server and only allow those people to have access. there are some realy good players out there in the pubs, you just have to look, and maybe work together a bit to fine tune to each others style.

In any case, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[nutterbutter]

I will however say that IMO you have no clue how to Zerk, and obviously have never had to solo on HoE as a Zerker. I do not mean this aggressivly or as an insult, but rather what I get from your posts when compaired to my experiance Zerking on HoE.

Well, I certainly can't argue with that logic. I started a detail thread about the zerker was OP. I listed the reasons, situations, and strategies. Many players disagreed with me, but many players agreed with me. Yet your complete rebuttal is "You have no clue how to Zerk."

Impressive.

 

[nutterbutter]

You can't force people to play KF the way its intended if they don't want to. The only thing you can do is make it so a certain tactic is less effective to encourage people to play a certain way.

The problem with playing with pubbers is there are alot of very selfish players out there who don't play with the team spirit that makes KF so good.

You can't control other players so there isn't any reason to get upset when they don't play the way you think they should. Yes, other players are selfish. Yes, other players play poorly often.

However, I think there are two thinks to remember. One is that other players think the same about you. And not "you" personally. Just the opinions that someone has of other players, there are other players that have that opinion of them. Two, you can't control what other people do but you can control your reaction to it. If some player is pissing you off, leave the server. Let them die. Don't give them any money. Kick them if they are on your server. But don't let them piss you off.

 

[outofrealman]

@Nutter: I read your post, and the ones after it as well. I am not going to repeat what several others said in reply, I will however say that IMO you have no clue how to Zerk, and obviously have never had to solo on HoE as a Zerker. I do not mean this aggressivly or as an insult, but rather what I get from your posts when compaired to my experiance Zerking on HoE.

NO. He just dont know how to kite with other perks....

He ALWAYS think berserker is the ONLY perk to dodge husks (because he think you need SPEED to dodge). He think berserker can kite 90% of the time and other perk needs A LOT OF luck to kite. Which is wrong. Sure berserker is easiest to do that, as I always said.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Hmmm... so Outofrealman, going to this idea of yours for reducing his ranged damage resistance.

Would the new Zerkers stats be say: -

- 40% Melee damage resistance
- 20% Ranged damage resistance

Or would it be higher? lower? And was his speed going to remain 30% or was that going to change?

Far as I can see, it does encourage teamwork and Husks especially would create big problems when kiting for the Zerker. These specimens are supposed to be his weaknesses so it does make sense. Could well make soloing a little bit harder to do and discourage what I shall affectionatly dub nubzerking

I'd say we'd need to be careful that this doesn't overnerf him of course, a mutator might be worth looking into for balance sake. As Nano said, we don't want to make him a totally unfun perk.

Anyone else have an opinion to share on this?