Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

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Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

  • Yes Badly Overpowered

    Votes: 25 10.5%
  • Yes Slightly Overpowered

    Votes: 65 27.2%
  • Meh Seems Balanced

    Votes: 128 53.6%
  • No Slightly Underpowered

    Votes: 12 5.0%
  • No Badly Underpowered

    Votes: 9 3.8%

  • Total voters
    239

the 1st wasted

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 17, 2010
272
312
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Europe
All I see in here is people crying about the FP. I have stated before that Zerkers have other threats, such as the Crawler, Siren, Husk, and to an extent the Scrake, Zerkers die from Sirens and Husks more than any other zed. The FP may be a threat to the gun toting players, but that is about the only threat since the servers are now filled with mainly Support and SS. Gun using classes do not have to worry about any of the zeds that Zerkers do, you see 4 to 6 Crawlers, 1 shotgun round and they are all dead, Husk or Siren, SS HS's it and the threat is gone, Scrake, SS HS it, stuns it, then the Support guys blast it, FP, SS gets at least 1 or 2 HS's on it, then the Support guys throw about 4 nades each and then unload on it with AA12', and there goes the FP, where as a Zerker has to expose himself to kill any of them, not to mention that normaly the gun classes do this while safe in a room, or area with only 1 entry, which IMO is as much an exploit as kiting a FP.
Maybe the welding should be nerfed, make it so that a door can only be welded once, or that the welder runs out of fuel.

As others have said, the zerker is overpowered in the hands of a player that knows what he is doing, whereas IMO the Support is overpowered in just about any players hands. The Support class can carry 11 nades, and has 3 shotguns to choose from, all of which that can kill multiple zeds with a single shot, the only other wepon that can do that is the X-bow (Excluding Demo), but at least it has very limited ammo, is a single shot weapon, and is expensive. A Support spec however can afford to buy extra shotguns and drop them at the camp site for when his other one is empty, maybe the price should be raised making it more difficult to do this, or limit how many Zeds can be killed with a single shotgun round.

Only a handfull of zerkers can do what people here are complaining about, and even those people can't do it every time.

Seems to me that a lot of people in here are having to deal with the whole ''Zerker being the last man standing'' thing often. If this is happening so often, then perhaps your time would be better spent figuring out just what it is that is causing you all to die so much, 1 person off by themselves should not be causing the team to wipe, after all, the lone Zerker off by himself is distarcting and killing a fair amount of Zeds thereby taking some of the pressure off of the rest of the team, which means that it is something that you guys are doing wrong, not the Zerker.
 
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outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
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Just like some people say "ZOMG!! How can you kite with non-zerker? They just cannot". Which clearly indicates that some people dont even know HOW to kite. And they see the most easy perk, i.e. the zerker, kite everything, and they just freak out.

But anyway... people will get better and better, so we will be seeing more and more non-zerker to kite in no time. And after you know how to kite (such as where you CANNOT GO INTO no matter what happen), before you make the game impossible, you can still kite. Solo mode is there for a reson, man. That's why I wont believe TWI will do ANYTHING to make solo impossible. So, finish the wave when everyone's dead will never be impossible.
 

the 1st wasted

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 17, 2010
272
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Europe
If I am with players I do not know, and I am the last one with more than, say, 80 Zeds, I always ask if I should continue or die? The answer is 8 times out of 10 to continue. So I really do not think it is as bad as some people in here are trying to make it sound.
 

sverek

Active member
May 20, 2009
435
234
43
Berserker is overpowered at the point, that he can take whole wave (if it skilled berserker)

HIT> RUN > HIT > RUN

No other perks can even dream about it (nah medic). Point is that, berserker is independent killing machine. He can annihilate wave, 6 berserkers can kill pat within 10 seconds.

Berserker if fine, but if it fine for perk to handle all species up to FP and being able to control wave, other perks also should be able to handle scrakes and FPs.
 

Nanostrike

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2009
2,025
250
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It disheartens me when I see my favorite game rot in an unbalanced state for almost a year. Quit whining; KF is better and more balanced now than it had been for a long time.

I personally couldn't touch KF anymore until they balanced it. Yes, it was that bad...
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
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Sheffield, England
@outofrealman

+

The problem, as many people have pointed out, is that the rage mechanics are severely limited. That in turn lets classes that were supposed to have a small chance end up having near 100% chance in killing the fp. There's no exploiting involved, just code that was never extensively tested to find its limitations.

Can't disagree with that I guess...

Although it is slightly frustrating. Its almost like we're admitting that the game is unfixable, and the Berserker will be overpowered regardless of what we do to it.

The whole reason I made this thread was really give a damn good try at addressing the problem... but if nothing can/will be done to curb the Berserker being the Superclass that it is then I guess I'm just gonna have to hang up my Flamethrower and Mp7M and retire from the game.

I can't play it in its current state, not without kicking every solo kite Zerker I see from my server, and I really don't want to have to do that. 1 shot Sharpshooters were annoying enough, I find kite Berserkers even more so. I can wait for a balance patch if I know its going to happen, but I can't wait for one that may never happen.

If this really is the end, then its a hearty goodbye everyone, its been real :)
 
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Spicy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 8, 2010
1,219
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Slightly off topic but people need to stop calling breaking LOS and all that stuff exploits. The code is working as intended.

Thank you Ghost, I was going to ask about that. It's not as though it's an "unintended feature" such as ventilation pipes or larger-than-normal trader bounds that may or may not be out there. :rolleyes:
 
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outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
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Berserker is overpowered at the point, that he can take whole wave (if it skilled berserker)

HIT> RUN > HIT > RUN

No other perks can even dream about it (nah medic). Point is that, berserker is independent killing machine. He can annihilate wave, 6 berserkers can kill pat within 10 seconds.

Berserker if fine, but if it fine for perk to handle all species up to FP and being able to control wave, other perks also should be able to handle scrakes and FPs.


In fact any perk can. LAR + kiting, or just arm yourself with M32.

Considering NOTHING on earth can stop rambo, you should NEVER consider to balance rambos. You should balance the game when players work together, or when the team wipes, the last 1 or 2 players.

So now, berserker only over powered because they dont need ammo, and if they are the last one, they can dodge crawlers (one of it main weakness when sticking with the team) and than melee instead of shooting it like they NEED to when stick with the team.

So berserkers caould be soloing way more zeds than other perks can even they cannot find any ammo boxes.
However, if the team is not really, really bad, there should not be "that much" zeds left for the last man. So, most of the time, wiht enough knowledge and skill, most perk can still possibily handle that wave.

In the case of 200+ zeds is left, even that berserker can handle this wave, that team will be wiped the next wave. So I dont see a "big problem" here. But of cos, berserker is overpowered in this suituation, but the real problem is they dont need ammo, not about if you can kite or not.

And thanks for scary ghost's reminder, clearly "able to prevent a fleshpound from raging" is intended. So anything making that impossible should be out of discussion.


SS, Support and demo can all handle Scrakes and FP's alone.

In 6-man HoE,
If "can handle" mean able to kill, everybody can handle them.
If you mean engage him face to face without kiting, actually support will have to take one hit 90% of the time.

On solo (or being the last man standing), only commndo cannot kill fleshpound before taking one hit (unless he armed with pipes or M32). YES, fire bug IS possible kill one-man fleshpounds with flammer before taking one hit even forced to engage by using the "freak out" animation when burnt.



P.S. Just keep in mind, berserker is THE EASIEST perk to finish a wave when teamatesare dead. Not THE ONLY perk to do so. Most people think berserker is fine may be because:

1. Most players dont run into a HELL LOT of good berserkers.
2. The team get wipes out and "someone" able to escape from the hell hole just dont happen for most of the time.
3. The last man standing dont usually able to win anyways... for MOST OF THE players' game.

Yeah, people will get better over time, but by then, nothing is not overpowered. Any why complain for something that haven't happen yet? YOU run into a bunch of good player or all of your friends are pros doesn't mean everybody is having the same case. Vote system is the best way to show that.
 
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the 1st wasted

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 17, 2010
272
312
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Europe
@undedd Jester.

If it is your server, then ban the Zerker perk, and setup an admin message to come up every minute or 2 saying that Zerker is not welcome. I see things like this all the time with just about all online games, or, put as much effort into getting a server patch that will allow admins to disable certain perks as you do into complaining about Zerkers.

Quitting the game all togther because of that is really sad guy, I hate Demo players and camping, but I still will do those things/play with those players if that is what the others are doing, or would like. But I guess to each his own.
 
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Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
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Sheffield, England
Hang on a minute, scrap that last post...

Holy christ I've been so dumb, I'm sorry outofrealman and all, Ihave been reading your posts, but I've just realised I missed a key point of your arguements everytime..

When you guys are talking about soloing a pound, your referring to when he has spawned after the rest of the team is dead, hence it only has 1 players worth of health. The Berserker can then take him on regardless of this 33% health idea (as obviously he should, cause as you say outofrealm an, every class should be able to play solo :)).

When I've been reffering to soloing the pound, I've meant when the Fleshpound has killed the team and has 6-man health. The "problem" is that even as a maximum HP Fleshpound the Berseker can still solo him with this tactic.

This is what my continous Fp rage idea is for, stopping the Berserker being able to single handedly kill a 6-man FP. Of course if the rest of the team wipes after woudning the FP, then the Berseker has to deal with the high health FP (about same as he would be agaisnt a 1 man FP) but it woud be constantly raging.

THIS is the nerf I'm going for, in solo as you pointed out it has a marginal effect (this 33% value can probably be dropped a bit to be honest as it would still have a similar effect). If the Berserker manages to finish off this weaknened Fleshpound then fair play to him, and once he finishes of everything else he wins the round.

Again apologies dude, I've missed a key point of your arguement :)
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
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Hang on a minute, scrap that last post...

Holy christ I've been so dumb, I'm sorry outofrealman and all, Ihave been reading your posts, but I've just realised I missed a key point of your arguements everytime..

When you guys are talking about soloing a pound, your referring to when he has spawned after the rest of the team is dead, hence it only has 1 players worth of health. The Berserker can then take him on regardless of this 33% health idea (as obviously he should, cause as you say outofrealm an, every class should be able to play solo :)).

When I've been reffering to soloing the pound, I've meant when the Fleshpound has killed the team and has 6-man health. The "problem" is that even as a maximum HP Fleshpound the Berseker can still solo him with this tactic.

This is what my continous Fp rage idea is for, stopping the Berserker being able to single handedly kill a 6-man FP. Of course if the rest of the team wipes after woudning the FP, then the Berseker has to deal with the high health FP (about same as he would be agaisnt a 1 man FP) but it woud be constantly raging.

THIS is the nerf I'm going for, in solo as you pointed out it has a marginal effect (this 33% value can probably be dropped a bit to be honest as it would still have a similar effect). If the Berserker manages to finish off this weaknened Fleshpound then fair play to him, and once he finishes of everything else he wins the round.

Again apologies dude, I've missed a key point of your arguement :)


EVEN you really left a FULL HEALTH fleshpound for a berserker, and EVEN you apply all those changes... berserkers, still, kill that pound.

So do demo and sharpshooter.......

So the thing is, unless you re-work everything about berserker or fleshpound, you will end up kill off any chance for survival for some perks WHILE berserkers still able to kill 6-man fleshpounds. As I said, you can just TAKE HIS HITS when he is clam, and you are able to kill him when he still have ~50% health (assume you make the only thing to reset his rage is hiting something).
What you can prevent the above issue?
Decrease resistance? No, most people (including me) think resistance is NEEDED for berserkers to really "hold the line". And the main thing is to "not enrage" the fleshpound anyways.
Decrease speed? Unless you make him dont have ANY speed bonus, he still able to dodge pound's attack. And speed is also NEEDED for berserker to run between zeds.
Unless you make NOTHING will reset the rage timers, berserker WILL be able to kill 6-man fleshpounds.

That's why I say the change dont fix anything you want to fix.... btw, just discuss, dont need to apologies:D (you're way better then those peopel who only down vote other's posts without ANY disscusion)


Lastly, berseker is NOT the only perk to solo 6-man fp, and berserker is NOT the only perk that can kite.
 
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Benjamin

Grizzled Veteran
May 17, 2009
3,650
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When the auto raging feature was added, guess what else they added? That's right, code to reset the timer rage timer.

I don't really think they 'added' anything so much as wrote what was necessary and left the reset side-effect as-is, possibly not initially realising that it would happen.
 
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scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
338
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California
Thank you Ghost, I was going to ask about that. It's not as though it's an "unintended feature" such as ventilation pipes or larger-than-normal trader bounds that may or may not be out there. :rolleyes:

Riiight, because the devs have posted that being able to shop at a closed trader is intended game play. Have fun finding that post.

We want them to be able to be decapitated. It gives the melee class a chance against them. It also helps other classes that don't have extremely powerful weapons. We just don't want them one shot decapped with a knife in one hit :)

On the other hand, Ramm has talked about their position of zerker vs. fp, they wanted melee and the other lower damage classes to be able to stand a chance. TWI has yet to say otherwise in this regard and give the zerkers, commandos, firebugs, and medics of the world that chance by breaking LOS or getting the fp to melee.

I don't really think they 'added' anything so much as wrote what was necessary and left the reset side-effect as-is, possibly not initially realising that it would happen.

Yeah, that is a better, and more accurate way to describe it. Fp leaves the ZombieCharge state, finds new target, and starts from the initial state, which intializes the rage timer to 0.

---------
The devs most likely didn't foresee that having the timer reset rather than pause or slowly count backwards wouldn't solve the infinite kiting that they sought to prevent with auto raging. How could they? The game was still relatively new back when auto raging was added and people were thinking fleshpounds just got a lot tougher because there was a count down to their rage. Not to mention, the number of testers they had for the change was probably limited to the TWI staff and few others. Now that the community has gotten better, it's time to rethink how the fp works.

---------
A random idea I thought of just now is to have the fp stay enraged until he hits for X damage rather than hm immediately calming down after attacking once. They might be able to do something with checking their victim's change in health so a zerker's resistance doesn't skew the count.
 
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Spicy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 8, 2010
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I was partly being sarcastic, which is why I wish we still had that troll face, but the rolls eyes will have to cut it. I figured it'd be a more...fun phrase to use instead of "exploit". I'm sure there are map fixes coming down the pipe.


DoD reference incoming.
Spoiler!
 

scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
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I was partly being sarcastic, which is why I wish we still had that troll face, but the rolls eyes will have to cut it. I figured it'd be a more...fun phrase to use instead of "exploit". I'm sure there are map fixes coming down the pipe.

Nah, I got that I just thought the whole post was sarcastic and not just the last sentace, lol. The joys of reading text eh? Anyways, my bad on that.
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
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Sheffield, England
EVEN you really left a FULL HEALTH fleshpound for a berserker, and EVEN you apply all those changes... berserkers, still, kill that pound.

Unless you make NOTHING will reset the rage timers, berserker WILL be able to kill 6-man fleshpounds.

That's why I say the change dont fix anything you want to fix.... btw, just discuss, dont need to apologies:D (you're way better then those peopel who only down vote other's posts without ANY disscusion)


Lastly, berseker is NOT the only perk to solo 6-man fp, and berserker is NOT the only perk that can kite.

Well my main suggestion it to have the Fleshpound continously rage once his healths drops below a certain figure. So he would stop and rage, run at the player and hit them, stop and rage immediately again, and repeat until either dead or he kills his target.

Sadly that did prompt me to run some numbers and (assuming I'm right) I do see the problem.

Spoiler!


The issue that I now understand that you've been elluding to all this time is that if you try to make him poor at killing the FP in a multiplayer game you make him poor at it in a solo game by default as well...

Only way to save the idea...
Spoiler!


This seems like the optimal setup kind of change for this particular idea, but as I say I'm not sure how keen I am on it cause it seems little band aidy... but at least now I'm up to speed ;)

Lastly, I still think that given the Bersekers numerous strengths against all speicmens with his very good survivability, he does need something to hold him a back a bit. I feel with the right alterations the FP can be the best candidate for being his weakness. Although all perks can use the LoS tactic, its really only the Zerker and Medic that can use this step in and dodge attack style. I personally feel that both are kind of cheap, so I favour either that pause idea or the your rage calming idea, and I am seeking some way of removing the effectiveness of this dodge technique.

I agree Sharpshooters and Demommen can kill the 6 man FP solo with good efficiency, the reason I don't begrudge them for it is their obvoius weaknesses against alot of the trash specimens. (4 pistol body shots to kill a crawler for example.)

Overall: Guess its back to the old drawing board as they say ;)
 
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Nanostrike

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2009
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Berserker being the Superclass that it is then I guess I'm just gonna have to hang up my Flamethrower and Mp7M and retire from the game.

I can't play it in its current state, not without kicking every solo kite Zerker I see from my server, and I really don't want to have to do that. 1 shot Sharpshooters were annoying enough, I find kite Berserkers even more so. I can wait for a balance patch if I know its going to happen, but I can't wait for one that may never happen.

If this really is the end, then its a hearty goodbye everyone, its been real :)

Being kinda melodramatic here, aren't we?:(


Hang on a minute, scrap that last post...

Or maybe bipolar?;)


All I see in here is people crying about the FP.
Only a handfull of zerkers can do what people here are complaining about, and even those people can't do it every time.

Seems to me that a lot of people in here are having to deal with the whole ''Zerker being the last man standing'' thing often. If this is happening so often, then perhaps your time would be better spent figuring out just what it is that is causing you all to die so much, 1 person off by themselves should not be causing the team to wipe, after all, the lone Zerker off by himself is distarcting and killing a fair amount of Zeds thereby taking some of the pressure off of the rest of the team, which means that it is something that you guys are doing wrong, not the Zerker.

This is what I kinda feel right now. Because this thread is back on the path to being a hate thread again... Jester and a few others are still making valid points about the main issue being that FPs thrash everyone but expert Zerkers, but a lot of people are missing the point...

The Zerker/FP thing is only a real issue at the highest levels of play, almost exclusively on HoE, which very few players who post on here even play regularly. Anyone on anything less than 6-man HoE servers saying "Zerker is OP!" is doing something wrong themselves, dying quickly, and just having to watch a Zerker who knows what he's doing kite for a while. Thing is, on anything less than HoE, almost any class that really knows what they're doing can kite like a Zerker, ESPECIALLY supports, Medics, and Sharpshooters.