Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

[Undedd Jester]

Is the Berserker Overpowered?

This thread is really just to try and get a feel for the general public attitude towards the Berserker, and since everyone here is quite well spoken and good at explaining their point of view I just want to see how peoples opinions break down next to mine.

So thanks in advance for taking part




Here is my stance on the situation in typical J* wall of texty fashion

Spoiler!

All of you know how much I love Killing Floor. Its been my favourite game since its release nearly 2 years and I've been singing TWI's name through thick and thin. Even with the Sharpie being as overpowered as he was, I wasn't angry about it, I just never used him and looked forward to when it was finally fixed, doing my own thing.

Fixed it was a treat, and immediately after the Beta everything felt right and balanced. I was over the moon, I thought I'd finally get back to spending my time blasting ZEDs again. However as time went by a problem slowly became apparant... and frustration grew and grew and grew...

Suddenly something dawned on me the other day, something that I never thought would happen no matter what... I am actually growing to the point that I don't like Killing Floor anymore.

Yeah I know right? Its a very depressing thought, even as I type this thread I'm feeling very low and sombre, so I humbly request you bear with me on this.

The problem is simply this. With the Berserker being made as powerful as he is, everyone plays him all the time now. Seriously in any map where there is even the slightest space to move around I rarely see anything other than 4 Zerkers and 1 Medic. One could say he has become the new Sharpshooter... except he is much worse.

The thing is KF was great when playing with your friends, or even just random pubbers and working together to defeat the common goal. The Sharpshooter could take on everything alone, which defeated alot of the need for teamwork, but at least the Sharpshooter actually covered his teammates... even if it was boring as snot for the rest of us.

The Berserker on the other hand is at the opposite end of the spectrum, he is generally used as a very selfish class, only really looking after himself rather than helping anyone in his team. Who can blame him? His greater damage resistance and speed have pretty much removed all reliance he had on the rest of the team. Why would you spend your time helping other people and putting yourself in harms way when ditching everyone and looking after yourself is so much safer?

Pro Berserkers could do this before, but it was alot harder so it didn't create the issue i'm reffering to.

Teamwork in modern KF has been well and truly shot in the foot. In my mind, KF was meant to be a team based game, working together to overcome each others weaknesses and fighting as a squad to survive.

This doesn't exist anymore. You pick anything other than Berserker or Medic and you better be a damned good shot, cause chances are your on your own. In my opinion the Berserker as the game stands now is the biggest threat to the game. I have never gotten truly pissed off with Killing Floor before, but now I can't play it for more than 20 minutes without rage quitting off it.

I have recently set up for my servers next payment to be paid for the full year... but in its current state, I'm not sure I am going to renew it...

So theres my point of view. I feel the Berserker needs nerfing quite badly, in fact I would be almost inclined to roll him back to how he was before.
Better to have a slightly underpowered class that people can commit to and learn to be effective with than a super easy class that ruins the experience for everyone else in the game.

How does your opinion stack up?

 

[Benjamin]

I'd say nerf the medic and berserker speed by a bit (5-10%) and change the syringe movement speed to be the same as the knife (or at least for medics). Also, change the FP rage mechanics so he can't be taken out so easily.

Those changes would probably help a lot, right?

 

[assfuzz]

my opinion stems from the fact that a berserker almost NEEDS a medic to excel. no other class really NEEDS a medic but berserker. sure there are some people who can solo hoe as a berserker but those have always been exceptions. berserkers being a melee class they are almost guaranteed to get hit a few times. other classes being ranged usually only get hit if they or someone else didn't notice something or a husk/siren showed up and no one saw it. 6 sharpshooters can rape hoe, 6 firebugs(yup) can rape hoe, 6 demos(sure) can rape hoe, 6 supports can surely rape hoe, 6 commandos can rape hoe, and 6 medics can rape hoe. 6 berserkers can rape hoe sure but its a lot easier with a medic so someone doesn't have to stop and heal. berserker is one of the only classes where you actually have to be good to be helpful. the other classes are all about weapon switching and shooting stuff. the berserker needs to have correct timing for his swings and movement dynamics. and the berserker with his no ammo weapons can contribute to the team by donating money and being a damage sponge. just because a gimmick setup exists that allows berserkers to rape doesn't mean nerfing them will end gimmick setups. everyone will just move on to the next easy gimmick setup.

 

[Entangler]

Before the patch, the Berserker was in a pretty good position, balance-wise. A little too good at soloing, but not dramatically so, and the Chainsaw needed a boost; but that was about it.

The good news is that one of those issues was handled properly.

I'm not really sure what to say here that wouldn't just be repeating earlier sentiments. I predicted before the patch was even conceived that the common suggestion of increased damage resistance would be a disaster, and that prediction has since come true, but I've already said that several times. I've also given several suggestions to address the Berserker's real (and, originally, minor) issues and others like them, but repeating those would merely clutter the thread. Do you actually want me to drop a wall here?

 

[rckrdude]

my opinion stems from the fact that a berserker almost NEEDS a medic to excel. no other class really NEEDS a medic but berserker. sure there are some people who can solo hoe as a berserker but those have always been exceptions. berserkers being a melee class they are almost guaranteed to get hit a few times. other classes being ranged usually only get hit if they or someone else didn't notice something or a husk/siren showed up and no one saw it. 6 sharpshooters can rape hoe, 6 firebugs(yup) can rape hoe, 6 demos(sure) can rape hoe, 6 supports can surely rape hoe, 6 commandos can rape hoe, and 6 medics can rape hoe. 6 berserkers can rape hoe sure but its a lot easier with a medic so someone doesn't have to stop and heal. berserker is one of the only classes where you actually have to be good to be helpful. the other classes are all about weapon switching and shooting stuff. the berserker needs to have correct timing for his swings and movement dynamics. and the berserker with his no ammo weapons can contribute to the team by donating money and being a damage sponge. just because a gimmick setup exists that allows berserkers to rape doesn't mean nerfing them will end gimmick setups. everyone will just move on to the next easy gimmick setup.

Lol so much raping going on. And no, all commando, firebug or demo teams will not rape HOE, but will wipe on most maps by wave 7-9, if they even get that far. Sharpshooters can do it on a map with space and visibility. Medics can do it if they employ the same tactics as zerkers. All Supports teams have it the easiest. Just camp, aim in the general direction of zeds at head level and go nuts. You win most of the time. Its even easier if you have a medic.

 

[Deafmute]

6 sharpshooters can rape hoe, 6 firebugs(yup) can rape hoe, 6 demos(sure) can rape hoe, 6 commandos can rape hoe,

No. No they can't.

Six Support, maybe. Medic and Zerker obviously, Medic being a little harder. The rest...just no.

 

[assfuzz]

No. No they can't.

Six Supportmaybe. Medic and Zerker obviously, Medic being a little harder. The rest...just no.

they can... its technically harder but can still be done. firebug can blaze through smaller enemies easily and you would need to focus fire onto scrakes and fleshpounds or use other weapons to take them down. wave 10/11 would be the hardest but everyone should be able to afford 2-4 pipes each by 11 though which will help. commandos can be done aim for the heads to conserve ammo and again pipes + focused fire can take down fleshpounds/patriarch easily. sharpshooters can do it fine. demos will work by using alternate weapons and explosives on big things/clumps.

all lvl 6 mind you for best efficiency.

 

[potemkinhr]

I wouldn't say a berserker is overpowered, he's the only class that has to get in melee range to do serious damage, and can't sit in a group or he's wasted killing potential. Everyone else has ranged weapons, yet only the Zerker has to go in melee range and get dirty to get any benefit.

If you take the zerker's movement speed he can't move at the same pace as the zeds on HoE, which means he will get overrun on HoE and won't be able to kite the zeds. What's the point of the speed boost if you can't evade normal zeds and get hit all the time (The zerker's movement speed bonus of 30% equals the zed's normal movement speed on HoE).

Damage reduction is almost as important as zerkers tend to be a little away from the team to offload some heat from the main group so they don't get overrun, and i can't personally rely on the medic all the time to heal me, he's more needed in the main group behind the corner, so I need to be able to take occasional hits. By removing the damage reduction you're forcing medics to throw themselves in front of other players or FP's, which is quite risky. From what I can tell, Berserkers are probably the only ones that actively use cover and terrain to their advantage (cover from husk's blasts, ambushes for sirens and scrakes).

It seems everyone is looking at the zerker as overpowered, but in truth it's just the case in solo, which is ridiculous to me, as almost all the players play multiplayer all the time, where that's not the case. Try playing zerker a time and you'll see there's more tactics involved than in most other classes.
If you're wondering i'm playing a zerker level 5 multiplayer-only (hard / suicidal), so now you know my opinion
It's easy to scream "'Zerkers are OP!!!11!!", but try playing the class and view it from our viewpoint.

 

[Big_BenKYS]

I just managed to solo six man HoE Waterworks without much trouble as level 6 Berserker.

I wasn't a typical selfish Berserker who ran off and left his team, I stayed with them (most were normal classes, Support, Sharp, etc.) until they got overrun, which was extremely fast in the later waves, and after trying to save them as best I could I would run off and start kiting.

I ended up finishing pretty much every wave past 6 all alone with 150+ enemies left on most waves after my team died. I was easily able to solo FPs, even double FPs weren't trouble with the Axe kite method. Even if I got hit or raged him and got hit (without armor mind you), it would only take off like 40, maybe 50 HP, which is crazy considering he instakills any other class without armor.

In the end I had 1325 kills while second place only had a measly 200. It is so insanely easy to kite and finish off huge numbers of enemies as a Berserker now, to the point that I see many people in pubs running 4 zerker 2 medic and kiting the entire game, and it works because zerker is so strong now.

Not to mention how popular the surround the Patty with Chainsaws tactic is, since it works almost every single time without fail.

As much fun as I am having being able to solo almost anything as Berserker, even six man HoE maps, I think it needs some toning down. Maybe reducing his damage resistance to 30% and reducing his speed bonus by about 5 or 10% would help balance him out. It's just crazy how easy it is to kite as a zerker now.

 

[SMIFF]

I'm still pitching to pause the FP's rage timer instead of reset it when you lose LOS or dodge an attack, resuming the timer when he regains LOS and after he's finished an attack.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Before the patch, the Berserker was in a pretty good position, balance-wise. A little too good at soloing, but not dramatically so, and the Chainsaw needed a boost; but that was about it.

The good news is that one of those issues was handled properly.

I predicted before the patch was even conceived that the common suggestion of increased damage resistance would be a disaster, and that prediction has since come true, but I've already said that several times.

It's funny I thought of 5 people off the top of my head that were perfectly fine, in fact very effective with the previous Berserker stats. (Although admittedly the Fleshpound cheesing still needed curbing)

Scary Ghost, HateMe!?, Fang, Entangler and to a degree, myself although it wasn't my best class. So you made the list brah

I too felt he didn't need a boost at all other than to the chainsaw. Still kicking myself I didn't test it myself during the Beta. This thread is to assess the overall opinion, because unless there is strong opposition to how the Berserker currently sits it won't get changed... which will be a very sad day for me

 

[outofrealman]

If you talk about solo or everyone go rambo in the server, yes, berserkers clearly being ridiculously over powered.

If the berserker sticks with a 6-man team, it kills off most of the perk's advantage, so at that point, berserkers is balanced.

And a full team of 6 same perk is actually making the game really easy. Because it is 1000 times easier to work together. When you think about it, 6-man HoE fp only needs 4 xbow hs, or 7 LAR hs. And you have six freaking sharpshooter. Assume 3 of them is defending one side of a hallway (which happens on most of the maps). Each of them put 2 LAR bullets in the fp's head, and anyone of them shoot it once more, he's dead. If all of them holding xbow, fps go down even faster. I believe no one will think putting 2-3 hs to a fp is hard...?

However, if the sharpshooter works with a LAW demo, after the demo fire that LAW and assume the ss still able to hs fps in the smoke, you still need freaking 4 head shots to kill that fp. Meaning the demo is doing nothing to help you.

This is just one of the example, when you figure the number of shots to kill zeds and divide them by 3, everything is really easy to kill.

 

[Euclix]

The berserker was nerfed after the patch. Fixing the back stab glitch made him a lot weaker. You used to be kill 6 man suicidal fleshpounds in like five axe hits and you could katana scrakes to death in no time.

It's not that easy anymore. Fleshpounds take like 10 or more axe hits and scrakes must be dealt with more carefully. Also, you need more headshots on weaker zeds. They could probably put his speed back to 25% but it wouldn't really make that big of a difference. And his damage resistance allows him to survive a fleshpound raging which he didn't used to really be able to do. So they could nerf that a little but it would take away from his tanking ability which he is only now somewhat useful at.

If you are running around and kiting spending 1.5 hours on a long game, yeah, the berserker will do well, but i've said it before and I'll say it again, his power is balanced by his inability to kill quickly. He can only take one zed out at a time and you often times have to run away after each kill or while killing in the case of the fleshpound.

If you are camping in a room with a choke point, being a berserker is a waste of time. If you play support, you will own everything. If you are camping in a semi open area, commando will do well as he doesn't have to kill multiple zeds with one bullet like support. It's situational really.

I have never had a lone berserker ruin my game, even when everyone else is camping but a berserker decides to run off on his own. If he dies, so what. If he doesn't die, so what. The team is usually good enough to handle their own. If they are not, that's not really the fault of the zerker, it's the fault of the team overall. I can't figure out why OP is so sore about berserkers as I just don't see what he is seeing on normal, hard, suicidal, or HOE; specifically the ultra selfish berserker play he is referring to. (I still play all difficulties except beginner as I have perk levels ranging from three to six)

If everyone else is playing berserker, well 'when in rome'. Kiting as a berserker is a lot of fun and requires a tone of teamwork (healing each other, not raging a fleshpound, clearing the path for a teammate etc.). It takes forever though.

The chainsaw on the patriarch tactic is a cheese tactic, but it's not really specific to the berserker. 6 medics surrounding him with probably any weapon I bet would work. It's really the trapping the patriarch that makes it so easy.

 

[C_Gibby]

I'd say slightly overpowered. I have seen berzerkers post-balance patch and despite being level 6, they suck arse, yet the perk seems balanced. It takes a berzerker that knows how to play to actually be overpowered to any extent, just like when the Sharpie had his old Xbow bonuses and the hitboxes were very dodgy, a one-shot kill was a rare sight indeed but aside from that, the perk seemed to be balanced.

 

[Steeps]

I might be in the minority around here, but I think the berserker is just fine. In the matter of fact, I wouldn

 

[Spicy]

The majority of berserkers I see (on hard and suicidal, still) tend to be really, really bad. Everyone has an off day. I played a pub game of Hospital Horrors on Suicidal and managed to die every round, because I'm that good. (Being SS probably didn't help.) The selfish zerkers that do die tend to ragequit. If they are the last one alive, I tend to get more frustrated with the 5 members of the team (me included) that stuck together and still died, rather than the berserker that got surrounded by clots. -_-

Jester, are you sure you're not just getting burned out on kf? I used to play EVE Online as much as I play Killing Floor currently. Now I'll just log in to EVE to train my skills or chat with people in my corp (clan, guild, whatever you want to call it).

The pre-xmas berserker was much more fun to play for me, but I can live with the perk bonuses as they currently are.

 

[noupperlobeman]

I've chosen not to vote. Here's why:

I consider something overpowered when anyone can dominate with it, regardless of skill level. I don't think the berserker is overpowered because there are many people out there (including myself) who just can't berserk worth a damn.

The newbies and those who don't practice with it are doomed to failure, and the experienced people who have logged many hours practicing will dominate. Its underpowered with inexperience, overpowered with experience. This is how it should be.

I've not heard of a team of berserkers being successful (I've not seen any at least). I have, however, seen plenty of all support teams dominate hell on earth (I've played on these teams). I like the support perk (its my third favorite), but it seems overly useful at times. I'm not crying for a nerf, just making an observation. I''m not sure why I don't see more threads like this about support.

 

[outofrealman]

If you are good enough, you can rambo. Berserker, again, just being the easiest perk to do so. Sharpshooter in fact, dont even need to kite to kill 6-man HOE fleshpounds and scrakes. So what? Feel free to rambo.

Want to kite? Medic can help you too!! Medic is the second easiest perk to rambo too.

People just LOVE to use these "not intended" way to play as reference to say things like berserkers is overpowered. Anyone here think berserker is overpower if they STICK WITH THE FREAKING TEAM? And THIS IS THE WAY to play killing floor.

I dont give a damn to rambos. I've seen a firebug go rambo and only die @ wave 7 once out of 10 waves. So firebug is overpowered? I dont think so.


Good players are overpowered. Because they know what to do and how to do in order to maximize the chance of survival and they know what is most effective to do in each situation. If these player really want to rambo, what can you do about that? 9 out of 10 rambos die every wave and ragequit anyways...

 

[Merin Redplate]

Just consider the fact that he can kill every specimen by himself on any difficulty.

 

[Undedd Jester]

I dont give a damn to rambos. I've seen a firebug go rambo and only die @ wave 7 once out of 10 waves. So firebug is overpowered? I dont think so.

Good players are overpowered. Because they know what to do and how to do in order to maximize the chance of survival and they know what is most effective to do in each situation. If these player really want to rambo, what can you do about that? 9 out of 10 rambos die every wave and ragequit anyways...

Firebug vs. 6-man Scrake solo = Dead. No exceptions.
Firebug vs. 6-man Fleshpound solo = Dead without LoS exploit. No exceptions.

The fact is good players could already rambo on the old stats setup (25% Damage Resistance and 20% Speed if you remember). The difference is you had to be REALLY good to do it before, now you only have to be halfway decent and do it. Seen at least 7 players in my server in the last week that can do it... and I only played in 4 games.

TBH even though I'm a believer in the Medics speed being necessary to stay out of the way of specimens as his team attacks them, I'm half tempted to just say take both the Medics and Zerkers speed boosts down to 10% and just kick this kiting crap square in the nads. Support I'd say remove his grenade damage bonus, since it is now a Demo weapon really, and make his max carry weight 21 without decreasing Shotgun weights.

Yes it will be annoying, even to me, but it would make the game much more preferable to how it is now.