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Release: Armored Beasts 2.03 beta

Hi Amizaur,

thanks for the very detailled answer. I didnt expect that, but are thanks to that able to see a few things much clearer than before.


DSome your objections, like question why can't you kill a Tiger from 1000m (!!!) from T-34/76, makes me doubt if you know the parameters of the tanks we are talking about (no offence, but why for God's sake the Tiger rear should be weaker than the side ???).

Well, kill him from behind. Thats not that spectacular compared to the front.
And no, the back shouldnt be weaker than the side. But ingame I just couldnt penetrate even at about 500m. I always had to win its side on a better than 60
 
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Tiger Fibel says, T34/76 penetrates side and back from less than 1500m distance. Concernig the back, thats now definetely not the case. Side and front seem to be ok.
The Tiger Fibel is not correct on this.
Those values are just for safety.
And btw. it does not mention the T34/76, it only says "T34".

Again. The back is in game far more resistant than the side. And that shouldnt be the case (about 80mm side and back armor).
And no, I dont want it to be weaker, than the sides, but equal.
Maybe - just a guess - you got that impression because it is easier to hit the ammo box from the side than from the back.
 
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Amizaur,
First, let me also say that you are welcome on the [FLOT] servers anytime to play and test your mod....;)
Second, let me also say that you will NEVER make evryone who plays this game happy...HOWEVER....as a person who has one of my college majors in military history, you are to be COMMENDED for perhaps the finest and most realistic mutator in RO, and for your research in putting this together.
Finally, today, in our server, as in all the previous days, you can clearly hear both the ricochet and penetration sounds.
Thanks again for this great mod. We'll look forward to your release of 2.06!
 
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Yes, Tigerfibel is not very reliable source... The data is strange, maybe added range for safety, maybe calculated by rear officers that didn't see a T-34 on their eyes. Note that KV-1 has only 800m for side shots listed, and T-34 twice of that, why ? Either it's T-34/85 (they heard of upgunned versions of T-34 and put those numbers just in case), though they wrote 7,62cm, or there is something wrong with those calcs. Take a look at any (german, american or russian) source of T-34/76 penetration, highest number you'll ever see would be 90mm at 100m. About 60mm at 1000m. It could teoretically destroy a Tiger from 1000m, firing exactly from the side, with a lucky hit in the gap between the upper superstructure and the tracks/suspension. It would meed a 60mm plate there. Hit in the roadwhells would add at least 10mm, maybe more, to lower hull protection. From a 1500m ? Don't seem to be possible with any ammo (APCR would not fly that far with any speed, AP had about 50-55m at this range (60-65 from Russian tables, mabe they used them ;-). But all that assuming 60mm armor hit (what chance for that from 1500m ?). If hit in 80mm armor, or in the suspension - no way to hurt it from even 1000m. Even using Russian data.
Highest number ever said by Russian T-34 tanker I read was 400m from normal not APCR) ammo from the side. And it's rather optimistic...

Remember also, that the model of T-34 in RO is early one, 1941/40 model. And it's supposed to meet Tigers in 1943, when the ammo quality was still poor. With a 1943 model and 1944 ammo, I will give him better penetration, good for a Tiger side for about 400, sometimes 500m. But for 1942/43 ammo probably 100m would be more realistic... Combat Mission uses even lower numbers, with early T-34 with penetration below 80mm in practice not able to touch Tiger 80mm armor...

And with more advanced armor modeling, the Tiger will have some 60mm zone from the side, between roadwheels and superstructure, that you can hit from close range. But chance to hit it from 1000-1500m are not very high as you can guess.

I'll write some more about other things but maybe later.

P.S. Also the german drawings showing hit zones and shot ranges against various Russian tanks (for example from gun manuals) are calculated using very conservative values and assuming 30deg additional angle. Something like "you can be sure penetration at this range" if not at extreme range...

P.S.2. The ammo hitbox multipler is currently x10, not x5 (it was done because if min damage limit was reduced to zero). So even 60-70pts of damage into it is enough to blow every tank. But I'm reducing it to 5-6 times again, because I increased min. damage to 0.1

I installed a FRAPS and captured a film, at which I fire from Tiger to T-34s and KV-1s at 1000m (aiming at the center of tank, but not aiming especially for ammo boxes as I even don't remember where are they), and destroy them with one shot usually (4 in a row) or 2 shots sometmes (first one sets them on fire), only one from from 6 needed 3 shots... but after this I checked the optput and saw that 30s video had 120MB :-D so I deleted it

Instead of increasing Tiger cannon shell damage, I just decreased the T-34 health. Because other tanks like KV-1 were much harder to knock out, it was just T-34 which was more prone to taking fire or explosion (thin armor, unprotected fuel tanks and much of flammable materials in crew compartment).
Now the chances to destroy it with first shot from Tiger in any part of the tank are about 50%, two shots 80%.

BTW reworking of ammo and engine hitboxes to correct size and placement would improve realism too. Who can take in the work ? I would give pictures showing where to place the boxes, and show how to do this, it's easy but very time consuming. Any volunteers ? Or do you play only ?
 
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Instead of increasing Tiger cannon shell damage, I just decreased the T-34 health. Because other tanks like KV-1 were much harder to knock out, it was just T-34 which was more prone to taking fire or explosion (thin armor, unprotected fuel tanks and much of flammable materials in crew compartment).
Now the chances to destroy it with first shot from Tiger in any part of the tank are about 50%, two shots 80%.

That sounds very good. I really like to be scared by the KV-1, when approaching it with a Pz. III on Berezina :eek:
Now thats an effect that only appears with AB and is nonexistent in RO. Getting scared by a simlulation - thats the style!
I love it.
50% 1-shoot kill for tiger vs. t34 sounds fair to me.

BTW reworking of ammo and engine hitboxes to correct size and placement would improve realism too. Who can take in the work ? I would give pictures showing where to place the boxes, and show how to do this, it's easy but very time consuming. Any volunteers ? Or do you play only ?
Off-Topic: Startet to pull and disassemble my motorbikes engine for overhaul yesterday, which easily can consume most of my daylight spare time the next weeks.

I wouldnt be of any use anyway, cause I have no clue about those things.
Maybe some day I will learn to do some texturing to get rid of those annoying two "replica" screws on the RO-Lugers left side.:p
 
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I'll try to release 2.06 very soon, with not much changes in code, but added switch for a debug mode which will display penetration calcs on the screen.

I would ask to run it on some servers at least part-time with debug mode on. This should help making many things clear. See the penetration calcs (where did I hit ? what was the range, my penetration, angle, enemy armor and final result) and damage (what hitpoints were hit, what was base damage, what random damage was done) should help people understand the penetration model and explain some strange things they see, if they are just result of unfortunate angle, or maybe some bugs that show only in online play. It would also have a projectile speed modifier, so server owner (or you in practice mode) can set 0.5 speed, true speed or even 0.05 speed (if needed to see shell behaviour during ricochets if there are any bugs showing). I only have to test it still in online play, if I don't need to replicate some variables maybe to have same settings on server and client. And if the on-screen messages show on clinet's screens too.

It would also have projectile dispersion modifier, but I'm not sure if I want to allow anyone set it as he wants ;-) but it for example makes tank gun and gunsight testing much easier for me when I can disable shell spread at will.

So let's wait with comments on penetration, ricochets and damage to 2.06. Then we can set a server in debug mode and all the problems can be checked to see what the game really does and what happens in penetration calculations when you see strange ricochets or something like that. We can even meet on an empty server and do some deliberate testing, I just think how to add a sound debug mode also (that would display what happened in code and what sounds are called to be played from where)... that would be server side I guess, but maybe would clear some things still about why I have 50/50 reports if the penetration sounds works or not....
 
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I see someone is keeping eye on things here, thanx :)

I did some tests with extensive debug, running dedicated server and connecting myself to it on 127.0.0.1. I see the problem now. The shells are working correctly on server side, calling proper sounds. But client side, the shells in fact ARE RICOCHETING (ricochet code triggers) and this is why they play riocochet sound and even are seen ricocheting sometimes, even though it's penetration & damage on the server. Now I have to find cause of that...
 
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I see someone is keeping eye on things here, thanx :)

I did some tests with extensive debug, running dedicated server and connecting myself to it on 127.0.0.1. I see the problem now. The shells are working correctly on server side, calling proper sounds. But client side, the shells in fact ARE RICOCHETING (ricochet code triggers) and this is why they play riocochet sound and even are seen ricocheting sometimes, even though it's penetration & damage on the server. Now I have to find cause of that...


Amizaur, we are with you all the way.

To those who have yet to try AB, tell your favorite server's Admin to put it in - you'll begin to enjoy the game much more. :)
 
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I think I found it. Well... Seems that penetration calcs are made on both server and client. Server makes damage and explodes vehicles, but client makes his own penetration calcs to see if it should play ricochet or penetration sounds/effect. Couldn't just server order playing those effects ? Don't know...
Anyway, some time ago, maybe even in 2.0 or 2.01 I made a custom function with penetration calculation. But I'm poor Unreal coder, and then I knew about it even less than now, so I didn't made it simulated :-/. Well, I didn't know that it would run on both server and client, but other similar fuctions were simulated so I should make it simulated too.

I made this fuction simulated now, and after that I hear penetration sounds on client side, and proper penetration anims are played and no bouncing shells. Sorry it took so long, stupid bug... 2.06 will have sounds OK.
 
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A question I have been meaning to ask, Do ricochets do any damage at all? I would imagine not in most circumstances.

:)
Well, probably IRL a ricochet will cause a certain amount of damage to the steel structure, so if another shell hits exactly on the same spot will find a weaker point. But I don't think it may be worth to code such behavior, as it would mean to take register of every single hit on every single vehicle every couple of square centimeters... poor server :p Not to speak about wether it's possible or not (EDIT:to code it, of course).
 
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