Release: Armored Beasts 2.03 beta

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Amizaur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2006
275
3
0
43
Gdansk, Poland
Uploading the files.

Well the spread of tank shells works... does the job of adding some error and reducing gun accuracy to correct level, but does it in a strange way - the shells can hit where aimed or drift to the left and down, almost never to the right or up. Don't know the cause yet, the same code is used for MG and main gun spread effect and works ok for MG (spreads equally in all directions) but tank guns only left and down...
So remember it's experimental feature.

I will of course write some read me/doc about new features too, maybe tomorrow. I release files only today.
The one thing I want to mention - the binoculars dual-magnification feature is removed, because now real 7x50 binoculars are modelled, but there are still TWO levels of binocular view - only with the same zoom. The first allow to designate arty targets, the second allows to fire a gun while looking trough binocs. You don't know in which "mode" you are (it's not showed on screen) but if you switch the views maximum forward, you will be in "last" one so firing the gun. One step back is designating the arty targets (so normal binocs function). Maybe later I will add some difference (for example diffeent reticle or message on the screen which mode is on).

The binocs have calibrated mil scale, you can estimate ranges using it.

Tank gun sights retain default textures in 2.03, so are not calibrated to estimate ranges by using the triangles, with exeption of the new Stug sight (based on photo of real Slf.Z.F.1 sight - it's reticle is made to be have correct scale and allow rangefinding, only the triangles are exactly twice as big as they should (because they would be very small if made 4 mils as they should). So distance between triangles is 8mils not 4 mils.

I'm not sure yet if in the future I will use true scale (very small) reticles, or doubled size. Probably you will decide after I show you pictures of both possibilities. For example in a Panther sight, if sized in true scale the triangles would be roughly 2 times smaller than currently to be really 4 mils.

Edit: forget to mention - I removed the driver's hatch from Is-2, because it doesn't have any really. On the other hand, I see that this reduces driver's vision maybe too much, because real driver had not only the visor but also two periscopes looking at angle to the left and right... so maybe I restore the hatch untill I add river's periscopes....

OK, the link is:

http://www.amizaur.za.pl/files/ArmoredBeasts2_Beta_2.03.rar

You may delete all old mod files, they are not used. Please report any problems by PM.

I may also release ArmoredBeasts2_Moz_BDJCamo_01 package (it's ready) or AB versions of other vehicle packages (so maps using them can be easily made AB-compatible) but I need permissionof their authors.

P.S. A word to people experiencing problems running mutator on Linux servers with this release: contact me on PM, maybe we can try to compile the mod on Linux (I have no idea if it helps, but we can try).
 
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Keystone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 25, 2007
293
8
0
In my opinion spreads of shells is still too accurate. It should be on range 1000m that sometime shell won't hit tank absolutely and then tank battles would be more effectible and longer. In game combat mission tanks sometimes can't hit wholly enemy tank by shooting even 10 times. Do you'll improve that? Beacuse I can still hit a tank every time on 1000-2000m when I'm in T34
 
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Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
5,024
1,037
0
78
Florida, USA
www.raidersmerciless.com
In my opinion spreads of shells is still too accuracy. It should be on range 1000m that sometime shell won't hit tank absolutely and then tank battles would be more effectible and longer. In game combat mission tanks sometimes can't hit wholly enemy tank by shooting even 10 times. Do you'll improve that?

I am not seeing this anomoly even at 1200m and 1600m. So far, this version works a treat.
 

Amizaur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2006
275
3
0
43
Gdansk, Poland
In my opinion spreads of shells is still too accuracy. It should be on range 1000m that sometime shell won't hit tank absolutely and then tank battles would be more effectible and longer. In game combat mission tanks sometimes can't hit wholly enemy tank by shooting even 10 times. Do you'll improve that? Beacuse I can still hit a tank every time on 1000-2000m when I'm in T34

I based the shell dispersion on real ballistic data about dispersion of German tank guns, some infos I collected about Russian gunaccuracy, and verified it against data about gun accuracy from GvA page
(http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/weapons/german_guns7.html).

The most accurate guns are Tiger and Panther, as you can see in GvA tables. Those were very accurate guns. 75L48 from PzIVH was much worse. 50mm is also very accurate gun at up to 1000-1500m.

The Russian 85mm and 122mm guns are good/average, worse than 88, but better than 75L48. The Russian 76mm gun is worst of all (with exeption of short 75L24). I had test data of Russian 76mm L52 gun (like in Su-76) tested by Germans who used it as 7.6cm PaK, also I found info than in combat T-34/76 had about 50% accuracy on 1000m, 85mm about 63% at 1500m and 122mm about 50% at 2000m and I used this info to estimate accuracy of Russian guns. 85 and 122 came better than German 75L48 but 76mm even worse than that.

For RO I used single dispersion data (it's a gun dispersion derived from test firings on a test range with fresh calibrated sights, precise aiming and good ammo quality) not doubled dispersion data. I want to see how it works in practice now.
The accuracy in RO will be probably a bit worse than first column in those tables, because you can't aim in RO as accurately as in real life (on the other hand your stress and adrenaline in game is probably 10 times lower than in real combat). We'll see how much worse. If still too good, later I may try to use doubled dispersion data (which is closer to real combat conditions like less accurate aim, varying ammo quality, gun and sight wearing) but I don't want to put so big dispersion at once to not get flamed (T-34/76 would have problems hitting a tank at 1000m with doubled dispersion).

We'll see how single dispersion works , and we agree that it's too low, then we can try to put double dispersion into game.

Dispersion of tank guns in 2.04 (it's a maximum error, not 50% dispersion, for 50% dispersion divide this by 3):

Tiger 88L56 0.60 m at 1000m
Panther 75L70 0.60 m at 1000m
Stug III 75L48 0.90 m at 1000m
PzIV 75L48 1.00 m at 1000m
PzIV 75L24 1.50 m at 1000m
PzIII 50L60 0.58 m at 1000m

IS2 122L48 0.80 m at 1000m
T-34 85L54 0.75 m at 1000m
Su-76 76L52 1.20 m at 1000m
T-34 76L42 1.30 m at 1000m
T-60 20L82 1.00 m at 1000m

I'm not sure the spread model used in RO, but average error values should be lower than this maximum error. This error may seem too low to prevent hitting a tank at 1000m (with exeption of T-34/76 and PzIVF1), but even this will prevent you from hitting exactly the point you aim at (for example Is-2 mantlet), so you may hit ineffectively or ricoshet.

P.S. OK, I know reason for so strange dispersion pattern. If anyone is interested (though it probably shoul be on Coding forum):

In short - large dispersion values works OK (so MG works OK), very small dispersion numbers have problems.

This is because the smallest possible gun angle correction is 4 rotational unreal units. I don't know why, but noticed this while calibrating gunsights. Angle corrections were working only in intervals of 4 unreal units, for example for 1, 2 and 3 there were no difference, only 4 made difference, then 5, 6, 7 again no difference, only 8 worked. So if the spreead function generates aim error of less than 4 ruu (that's 0.38m at 1000m) then it will not work. Values between 0.38m and 0.77m will make 0.38m correction and so on - in steps of 0.38m.

Now, why it worked down and left more than up and right: as I wrote above, the gunsight pitch correction works in 4 uu intervals. While calibrating sights, I set sight corrections for most German guns to first value that worked. So if I needed correction for which 34, 35, 36 and 37 were valid values, I set 34.
Now if the pitch after spread was inreased by 1, 2 or 3 ruu - nothing happened, but if it was enough to decrease by 1 to lower the line of fire. Same situation in horizontal (+4 correction needed to move aim line right, but -1 was enough to move it left). If I really needed so small shell dispersion error (smaller than 0.0008) then I can compensate this in code or set gunsight pitch corrections to middle value and this will make up and down corrections equally probable (if I set gunsight correction to 35 or 36 from above egzample). The problem would probably disappear if double dispersion values were used, as smallest error would then be 0.0011).
 
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Dheepan

FNG / Fresh Meat
There was no drivers hatch on the panzer III if I remember right. Same with the STuG then too. Not sure about the panzer IV, or tiger.

A lot of times a driver out of the hatch of tiger will obscure the gun, so I'm not sure if you really peek your head up out of the hatch in real life.
 

Amizaur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2006
275
3
0
43
Gdansk, Poland
I'm happy there is so few comments on 2.04, this would mean probably that everything works as it should :)

I have no idea about PzIII hatch. About PzIV I have to admit that I didn't see a photo of PzIV running with driver's head out, although I seen a Tiger with driver's head out. But of course not in combat, rather during precise maneuvering or road marches. IS-2 hatch was extreme example as in this case it was not question if the hatch could be used during driving or not, but because it simply DOESN'T HAVE a driver's hatch at all.

I will probably restore the Is-2 "hatch" as I drive it in online game and see that without it the driver's vision is probably too restricted. Real IS-2 had also two periscopes for driver looking at some angle left and right. Far from perfect vision, but at least it had some way of looking to the sides... So, as long as RO doesn't model multiple driver's periscopes or is not played with full crewed tanks, making realistic and so restricted driver's view is probably questionable idea...

For 2.04 I restored driver's unbuttoned view in Is-2 (although driver is not "exposed" as he can't be, he's stil under armor), maybe I will limit the view angles a bit or add overlay texture to simulate periscope view.

I also increased tank shell dispersion to 1.5x the single dispersion value (50% increase from 2.03).

I'm still not sure what to do with binoculars. The single high-magnification piece of 7x50 has FOV of 10deg at best, so it is very poor tool for detecting targets at medium distance and keeping situation awarness. But it is probably realistic. It's usually takes longer than few seconds to spot a tank at 500m in real life (and of course this is why "looking around" should be done from turret-down position, but in RO it's hard to find such position from a driver's seat. That would be next advantage of playing with at least 2 person crews - the commander can direct the driver to find a good, turret-down position for safe looking around... a "slowly ahead" command under a key would be help in that too)

Real tank commanders of German and late Russian tanks had either their own 1x eyes or binoculars to scan for targets, just like in 2.04 (some people use tank sight for this but this is good idea maybe in Panther only, with it's fast turret and extreme 28 degrees field of view. T-34/76 and KV-1 had also 2.5x periscopic observation devices, but they abandoned the idea as it restricted FOV too much on close distances, they used non-magnified periscopes later. So adding second, wide FOV binocular zoom level would be not very realistic.

I can try one more thing, add second level of eye view, the default one is 85deg FOV and it has effective "zoom" lower than 1x (unless you have 21" monitor). The "natural" 1x zoom would be about 70deg FOV if you keep eyes close to monitor. So I may make two levels of unbuttoned naked-eye view, one default 85deg to quiclkly look around, and second 65-70deg FOV used to look for targets at med distances. Tell me what you think about this idea (well it has to be checked in practice anyway to know if it's good or not, just like hatchless Is-2 - this is what those beta mod versions are for. So I will try this in 2.04 probably and we'll see if it's any good).

BTW how do you like the differences between tank gunsight parameters made in 2.04 ? For example difference between excellent Panther's sight and T-34/76 sight ? :)
And NO, I didn't mean to model gunsight QUALITY. The quality of all gunsights in RO is exactly the same, as it is hard to model glass and optics wuality in game, and also there are contrary opinions of how good or bad Russian optics were. Those differences you see in 2.04 are only because of technical parameters (zoom, field of fiew and resulting apparent field of view).
Pather's sight had 28 degrees field of view. T-34/76 sight with the same zoom had 15 deg field of view. You feel the difference ? Take a look trough a cheap telescope and you'll see what apparent field of view it has. About same like you see in T-34/76. Also KV-1 and T-60 gunsights had rather narrow field of view, and a Stug sight too was similar (5x zoom with only 8deg field of view, Panther's sight had 14deg field of view in 5x zoom, almost twice of that). T-34/85 and IS-2 gunsights were much better, as can be seen in game. They were based on PzIV sight construction. BTW if you think T-34/76 sight is narrow, then I can say you than some allied gunsights (on Shermans and US tank destroyers) had even smaller FOV than that. Fortunately for them, they had also wide FOV periscopic sights to use at close ranges.

T-34/76 should have modelled periscopic sight too (2.5x with 25deg FOV, as good as PzIV gunsight and could be used to fire a gun at close distances), but I would need animation of moving between periscopic and telescopic sights (it was not instant for sure). I can't make anims. Have to think what could I do with that for next version, maybe some smart use of existing anim... Also I have no idea how the reticle of Russian periscopic sight looked like, would have to use some generic untill I find right one.

But my main task now is not visual stuff but making better armor modeling at last, and is what I'm going to work at now, mostly.

P.S. Was the idea to force "unbutton" animations before exiting vehicle is allowed suggested to devs ? This would be at least some delay. I don't know this part of code to modify that... And I'm afraid that simply allowing to exit ONLY from unbuttoned view (what I maybe could do) would make many panicked tankers burn in their vehicles to death after forgetting that they have to open hatch before they can get out ;-))))
Well many will die after they forget to reload their gun, too, as I'm going to implement on-key reloading of tank guns somwhere in the future... ;-) only I don't know yet how Unreal/RO engine handles key presses... most of my work so far is creative copy-paste + some new algorithms (basic all-around programming) ... any U coder would like to help with that (reload on R key press?)
 
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Recce

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 31, 2006
605
0
0
I have no idea about PzIII hatch. About PzIV I have to admit that I didn't see a photo of PzIV running with driver's head out, although I seen a Tiger with driver's head out. But of course not in combat, rather during precise maneuvering or road marches. IS-2 hatch was extreme example as in this case it was not question if the hatch could be used during driving or not, but because it simply DOESN'T HAVE a driver's hatch at all.
Based on clambering around inside the split-open and gutted PzIII at the Bovington tank museum, it would be impossible to look though the hatch and drive at the same time. As the hatch is forwards of the driver's viewing slit, the driver's body would be in-front of the steering levers. The hatch on the driver's side would only be useful for engine maintenance. (See attached).

As for the PzIV, it's more believable, as the hatch is above the driver's viewing slit, it has the chance of being physically possible. I have no idea if this guy is actually driving; there is a considerable distance between were his head is and where it would be when looking through the vision slit.



For those who are interested, the design of the JS-2's nose was changed between Feb and June '44. Previously the glacis was in 2 sections, the lower at an angle of 16deg, and the upper, housing a plug-hatch, at an angle of 60deg. This hatch could be swung out and up, giving the driver an improved field of vision, but didn't provide access. I can't a good picture of it open on a JS-2, but it's the same design as the JS-85




A better picture of the type on hatch on the KV-85.


The later design of glacis was a single piece of 120mm armour containing a just the vision slit.
 

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Amizaur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2006
275
3
0
43
Gdansk, Poland
Thanks. Yes, early IS-2 - small vision "hatch" similar like in Panther D, but not big enough to even put head out probably, late Is-2 only small vision slit with triplex glass block. BTW I didn't want to be in the shoes of the driver if a round hit or simply ricocheted along the armor just into his visor... :-/ From what I heard, it happened frequently with early Is-2 (with broken nose) and still from time to time on late ISs-2s... the driver usually was killed...

As for PzIV it was probably possible to put head out, but not reach controls at the same time. So I should disable controls while the head is out I guess ;-). And PzIII ? Only possible to get head out while stationary ?

I noticed a bug in blow-up-after-burning-a-while code in online game tonight. It takes damage and blows up only if there is a man on a driver's seat, I sit in a burning time 10 minutes after noticing that bug, only didn't switch to driver anymore. Have to look at that. And I have to make adjustable sniper scope if no one tried to do this :-/ because I was exremally frustrated today trying to relax from tanking a while by trying a sniper role at med (500m) range... I need data about the sights modelled (zoom and field of view) !

But I would prefer to focus on tank warfare... is there a one coder interested in actually improving the game a bit ? Not only "round limit" or "grenade only" muts ?

Mike, great map by the way :) promotes maneuver and I can imagine that it would promote team tactics greatly if any team tried it (good team with VoIP would simply wipe the floor with the other side, red or blue, if it was team vs bunch game :).
 
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Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
5,024
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Florida, USA
www.raidersmerciless.com
Thanks. Yes, early IS-2 - small vision "hatch" similar like in Panther D, but not big enough to even put head out probably, late Is-2 only small vision slit with triplex glass block. BTW I didn't want to be in the shoes of the driver if a round hit or simply ricocheted along the armor just into his visor... :-/ From what I heard, it happened frequently with early Is-2 (with broken nose) and still from time to time on late ISs-2s... the driver usually was killed...

As for PzIV it was probably possible to put head out, but not reach controls at the same time. So I should disable controls while the head is out I guess ;-). And PzIII ? Only possible to get head out while stationary ?

I noticed a bug in blow-up-after-burning-a-while code in online game tonight. It takes damage and blows up only if there is a man on a driver's seat, I sit in a burning time 10 minutes after noticing that bug, only didn't switch to driver anymore. Have to look at that. And I have to make adjustable sniper scope if no one tried to do this :-/ because I was exremally frustrated today trying to relax from tanking a while by trying a sniper role at med (500m) range... I need data about the sights modelled (zoom and field of view) !

But I would prefer to focus on tank warfare... is there a one coder interested in actually improving the game a bit ? Not only "round limit" or "grenade only" muts ?

Mike, great map by the way :) promotes maneuver and I can imagine that it would promote team tactics greatly if any team tried it (good team with VoIP would simply wipe the floor with the other side, red or blue, if it was team vs bunch game :).

I was glad to see you in there "mixing it up" with the guys... you got the chance to see both RO-Valley of Death_A1 and AB Mut 2.03 at work... Hopefully Valley will be released as Beta 1 shortly so everyone can see it.

ArmoredBeasts 2.03 is excellent. (I don't have AB 2.04 is it released somewhere?) Any enhancements are always appreciated. I PM'd to you the few anomalies I found. Thanks again for all you do.
 

Amizaur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2006
275
3
0
43
Gdansk, Poland
No I will announce each release on this thread (or make a next thread). When I fix some bugs/issues or make some new additions i will release next version (probably soon). 2.04 would probably mean only fixes - increased spread of shells, restred back IS-2 hatch, I'm working on problem with Panzerfaust pickup (it doesn't want to mutate :-/) and problem with dropped panzerfaust spinning in air, a problem with burning tanks blowing up only if there is player on driver's seat. Those are current issues. Maybe I will put some other stuff if it's ready.
 

Mike_Nomad

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 15, 2006
5,024
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Florida, USA
www.raidersmerciless.com
No I will announce each release on this thread (or make a next thread). When I fix some bugs/issues or make some new additions i will release next version (probably soon). 2.04 would probably mean only fixes - increased spread of shells, restred back IS-2 hatch, I'm working on problem with Panzerfaust pickup (it doesn't want to mutate :-/) and problem with dropped panzerfaust spinning in air, a problem with burning tanks blowing up only if there is player on driver's seat. Those are current issues. Maybe I will put some other stuff if it's ready.

Exellent!! I anxiously await the next version. ;)
 

Amizaur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2006
275
3
0
43
Gdansk, Poland
At last I resolved the problem with panzerfaust pickup. I just didn't notice that there are two kinds of Panzerfaust pickups, weapon pickup and ammo pickup, and that I need to modify the ammo pickup not weapon one :-/
 

Amizaur

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 18, 2006
275
3
0
43
Gdansk, Poland
Of course I know that this model is 10 times (or maybe 100 times if by numer of vertices) to detailed to add to RO :). Just nice model :). Have you seen his suspension and track on other pages ? And nice seams. I have to talk with him to give me some hand in 3D modeling, and give him some pictures how Tiger's front turret armor (not the mantlet) with opening for gun should look because he doesn't have it probably (or maybe just didn't make it yet).

Ups !!! I forget to disable something before compiling 2.04, uploading corrected version... Now corrected uploaded.

edit: I'm blocking the file again, just noticed something weird with HE shells :/ Should be back in an hour or two, sorry, don't know when something broke in HE shells against tanks :/
 
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