Release: Armored Beasts 2.03 beta

[Mike_Nomad]

Thanks for the replies.

I did try this last night but it seemed to ignore it during startup. Maybe because I didn't have the below added to the ini.

I'll give this a shot when the server empties.

All I use is the batch file... nothing in .ini file.

 

[FreeMan]

All I use is the batch file... nothing in .ini file.

I got it to work using the same thing as you Mike. It looks like it all about the placement of the parameter. Instead of at the end of the command line and put it in the middle and lo and behold it works. Thanks.

 

[Amizaur]

A propos the .ini files

I just discovered that mutators can have .ini files too, parsing variable values to compiled mutator. Great feature, wish I know it before. Already modified the mut in the way that the tank projectile speed (SpeedFudgeScale) can be set in the mutator .ini file. So now in one and same version of AB the tank shell speed can be set by editing the ArmoredBeasts2.ini file to any value - 0.5 like in original RO and current AB, or 1.0 (true speed) like in AB 2.0, to see how it performs.
No need for me to release different versions with different shell speeds (as I planned, but didn't wanted to release two versions with the same filename...), shell speed can be modified at will. I guess that the setting on the server will overwrite values set by players.

This will be available in 2.06. Also I (or you) can enable debug mode without recompiling the mod. For example one of the switches enables displaying of the range in meters after each hit.
I can also for example add a swich displaying of the penetration calcs to screen, to demonstrate how the model works for new players that want to evaluate it.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

I got it to work using the same thing as you Mike. It looks like it all about the placement of the parameter. Instead of at the end of the command line and put it in the middle and lo and behold it works. Thanks.

Glad to help my friend... glad to help.

 

[Amizaur]

Hm just spectated in a game, to look more closely at some things, and I see that when mutator runs on servers, often wrong hit sounds are played - ricochet sounds when there was a penetration... have no idea why, it didn't show in practice mode. Have to look at this problem...

 

[Quietus]

Did you get the PM I sent?

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Hm just spectated in a game, to look more closely at some things, and I see that when mutator runs on servers, often wrong hit sounds are played - ricochet sounds when there was a penetration... have no idea why, it didn't show in practice mode. Have to look at this problem...

More than likely because the wrong sound file is in use..... Some servers are a bit tardy in doing proper updates.



The inclusion of an .ini file for AB is a great idea.

 

[Amizaur]

Hmmm seem not likely for me, because the sound file for AB 2.03+ has a different name that previous, I took care for that. So it's rather impossible that it uses old sound file :-/

 

[[FLOT]airborne]

We'd also like to update to 2.05, unless you're soon to release 2.06? Also, link does not have a UZ2 file. Mike, am looking for your update of 2.05 on your "mut downloads" page, as this is where I got all the correct files for 2.03.....

 

[Amizaur]

Excuse me, but what is uz2 file ??? I'm not joking, what is it for ?

Untill now AB had only u and ucl files, from next version it will have ini also.

2.06 will show if I fix some bugs or some new relevant features are added. Untill that, you are condemned to use 2.05 ;-)

 

[mat69]

uz2 a compressed format, so that you save download if you connect to a server --> the server sends you the compressed file and RO automatically decompresses it.

Just played around to get the correct command.
ucc Compress XY.u (or what package you want to compress)
ucc Decompress XY.u.uz2 (to decompress, but I doubt you'd need that command).

 

[Amizaur]

Thanks, I'll try. But the main mutator is 400kB

I just noticed that tank shells can't go trough glass in windows... There is no code that makes it fly trough, like the one found in ROBullet....

I have question - I checked the 2.03 version and still heard wrong sounds (ricochet sounds when there should be penetration sound). I wonder if the same was in 2.0. Anyone remembers ? Have also to check just stock game...

edit: no, stock game seems to play correct sounds. very good, bug in the mutator can be at fixed. so, were 2.0 ok, and penetration sounds were played ? and does ANYONE hears penetration sounds inonline games with 2.03-2.05 ? Or just ricochets ?

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Thanks, I'll try. But the main mutator is 400kB

I just noticed that tank shells can't go trough glass in windows... There is no code that makes it fly trough, like the one found in ROBullet....

I have question - I checked the 2.03 version and still heard wrong sounds (ricochet sounds when there should be penetration sound). I wonder if the same was in 2.0. Anyone remembers ? Have also to check just stock game...

edit: no, stock game seems to play correct sounds. very good, bug in the mutator can be at fixed. so, were 2.0 ok, and penetration sounds were played ? and does ANYONE hears penetration sounds inonline games with 2.03-2.05 ? Or just ricochets ?

We were hearing both all day long in a mostly full server....

 

[Amizaur]

:-|

I'm not sure anything anymore... i could swear I heard penetration sounds on Valley. But on Arad, Orel and some other maps I tried today I didn't hear single penetration sound where rounds were penetrating, just ricochet. Only on shot when vehicle blows up, penetration sound is heard...

 

[Mike_Nomad]

:-|

I'm not sure anything anymore... i could swear I heard penetration sounds on Valley. But on Arad, Orel and some other maps I tried today I didn't hear single penetration sound where rounds were penetrating, just ricochet. Only on shot when vehicle blows up, penetration sound is heard...

On the ORIGINAL version of Orel by Slashbot427, AB works fine... on the subsequent "changed" versions (no great loss) it does not. Which is ok by me as we use the original with the Panthers and T34/85's - it makes for better, well balanced gameplay. That means its more FUN.

We played Valley, Orel, Arad SH4 and BlackDayJuly all day and we never noticed any trubs with the sound. We'll be there again today and I'll pay particular attention to the sounds.

 

[Frontal_Lobe]

Hi,

I first want to thank the modders (mutadders ) for all the work they have done.
I really like the idea of a realisitc RO mutator and had a lot of fun playing the previous Armored Beast Mutators.

But with this version I have the strong impression, that it went into a wrong direction.

If you are not an ammo-box hunter, then it feels, that tanks are now much harder to kill, than before and even than in standard RO.

By now I had several situations were I was facing T34s with a Tiger or an IS2 from side with a panther, both at point blank range, and needed more than three hits to kill them (If I wasnt killed before).

Yesterday, when I faced a T34 with a Tiger at less then 1000m and we changed about 5 rounds it just triggered the impression, that this must have been what the people on Monitor and Merrimack experienced.

Of course one shouldnt expect every hit to be a one shot kill. But by now it seems, that only direct ammo box hits are instant kills an this is far from realistic. Ammunition oftentimes was caused to explode by glowing debris for example.
Having read a lot about german WW2 tanking it appears to me, that the one shoot kill was standard (at least more than 50%) for Tigers and Panthers and not the exception

I dont know, if the current damage model, as experienced in game, is intended or still the hardly expected outcome of the surely not yet finished work in progress.

It just feels by now, that you are not fighting tanks, but moving ammo boxes with hardened emptiness around them.

I am sorry, if you consider my remarks as somehow flaming. I ensure you, that this is not my intention.
But I am somehow frustrated, that for me the "reality feeling" ist not even worse compared to 2.03 but even to standard RO.

Some inaccuracies I am unhappy with:
- german 75mm and 88mm ricochet on IS2 below 500mm
- german 75mm and 88mm ricochet on T34 below 1000mm
- IS 2 seems to be unable to penetrate Panthers front armor over 500m (but gives you a one shoot kill if you hit the turret frontally)
- IS2 side seems to be way too strong
- Tigers back seems to be too strong. I wasnt able to penetrate below 1000m with T34 762 (bout 3 hits - no effect)
- there ist still a "yellow" damage state - whats it about ?


Suggestions
- can a turret rotation assemly (connection between turret an hull) hitbox be included? Tank crews were teached to hit there, because it ist a very vulnerable point for penetration, no matter from which side. Projectiles also dont ricochet there but are oftentimes even guided into the weak spot due to the bad armor geometry there.
- there shoud be a small (increased?) chance of ammo and/or fuel tank explosions after every penetrating hit.
- the yellow damage state should be replaced by somthing like "disabled turred" or "killed turret crew" if possible
- correction of the penetration values
- increased probability of track damage, especialy after hits from the side

What I really like:
- the new "slow burnig death" mode. I was really surprised the first time it happened to me
- the already big variety of possible hits and their different results
- the more realistic reloading times
- the panther and stug gunsights


I dont use the stug by now, because of the damage model. Stugs superior tank killer capabilities are more than outbalanced by the now too resistant T34 values in 2.05. I liked it a lot before.


The sound issue:
I would like to confim your observation, that it happens almost every time on arad. Can remember the impact sounds only from VoD.


Sorry again for all the critics, expecially because you have done all the hard work and I have done nothing at all.

If the other armoured beast enthusiasts disagree with me, just ignore the posts. Due to 2. degree tank addiction I will be back from time to time anyway.

Now I go to hide myself in an IS2

CU on VoD

 

[Mike_Nomad]

Come, try the latest AB Mut on our Armor Only Server.... None of what you indicate is actually the way you describe. The penetration and armor values for all the Tanks are now accurately portrayed. They are the true specifications. AB mut has moved us away from the arcade-like atmosphere to a genuine, demanding battlefield condition. The Stug is now as it should be, a formidable weapon. Deviation and Variation of projectile travel is far more accurate for both close range and long range battle.... you must compensate.. The probabilities of projectile shatter and ricochet are far more accurate than ever before. Please, do stop by and give the latest AB an in-depth whirl on our Armor Only Server.... you will not be disappointed.

 

[Frontal_Lobe]

Thanks for the kind invitation

but wasnt I on your server yesterday? I remember your name. It was a good match anyway. I really like the Valley of Death map.
Or are you talking about another server?

Anyway I do not doubt, that the values for penetration an ricochet are well researched. However to model something like an impact of a projectile straight from scratch you surely need a huge computer cluster, if possible at all. So in one way or the other you have to simplify things. And right now my impression is, that the simplicifations went into the wrong direction, thats all.
I think its not wrong, to check in game the plausiblity of the outcome of all the calculation and estimations . And that outcome seems to me in the moment too close to "clash of ironclads" rather than WWII Combat.

There might still even be the possibility, that its not a problem of the calculation at all (at least some of it), but some strange bug like the sound bug, which happens to some people and others not - who knows?

But no problem. If you guys are happy with it, dont care about me.
Its just a feedback. I surely dont underestimate the work, that has been done by the modders.
Thx a lot.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

My bad.... (I replied b4 my first cup of coffee). Yes, you were with us yesterday (Most of the day I might add).. we all had a blast. You are welcome * anytime *.

Thanx for the input.

 

[Amizaur]

But with this version I have the strong impression, that it went into a wrong direction.

Dear Frontal Lobe, any critics is welcomed, but be sure you know what you are criticising. Some your objections, like question why can't you kill a Tiger from 1000m (!!!) from T-34/76, makes me doubt if you know the parameters of the tanks we are talking about (no offence, but why for God's sake the Tiger rear should be weaker than the side ???). I will answer to some your questions and comments.

If you are not an ammo-box hunter, then it feels, that tanks are now much harder to kill, than before and even than in standard RO.

Not enitirely true. The damage done is highly random, so you may as well kill a tank with one shot (it happens all the time for me) or do no damage at all (something like a faulty shell fuse and very lucky crew). The ammo hitboxes in RO are so big, that it's hard to not hit in them, and then tank usually blows with one hit... The tanks were made more resistant just because suggestions of the players, which felt that using 1-4 shots to kill tanks would be more realistic than 1-2 hit kils. In previous version the tanks were exploding more easily because I assumed that even after one penetration, the crew is ussually taken out of action even if still alive. As there is no way to "paralyse" a crew in RO, I chosed to just assume tank is taken out of action and explodes. In this version tanks are bit more resistant, the minimum damage limit is lowered that sometimes a penetration can cause very little damage, tanks take anything from 1-4 shots to get killed (depends on gun, ammo and target) and this was done on request of the players.
I will now collect opinions again and maybe tune it again in 2.06, that's why I call the mod "beta" even if most people see it working very good.

In the future (something like 2.1), it will still take 1-4 shots to destroy a tank. Only the crew could be killed after the first penetration already. If I found a way to "shock" or paralyse crew for some time after penetration, I will use it too, even if they are not killed they will be shocked a bit.

By now I had several situations were I was facing T34s with a Tiger or an IS2 from side with a panther, both at point blank range, and needed more than three hits to kill them (If I wasnt killed before).

It's true that the crew should be probably not able to react after the first shot penetrated. They usually had no chances in proevious versions of AB because their tank exploded.
But taking out a tank (to make it explode or burn) could take 3-4 hits in case of 75mm gun. The Tiger shell has stronger behind-the-armor effects and it usually takes 1-2 hits to kill a T-34. At least should. If it takes more, it will be tuned up a bit. The damage system is still only extending the basic RO point-damage system, and it can't be better untill I recode it to calculate kill probability instead of point damage.

Yesterday, when I faced a T34 with a Tiger at less then 1000m and we changed about 5 rounds it just triggered the impression, that this must have been what the people on Monitor and Merrimack experienced.

Are you absolutely sure that your rounds penetrated ? In my experience a T-34 blows up after 1-2 penetrations from a Tiger, 3 is very rare. Maybe you just not hit effectively (tracks, turret sides) ?

It has to be clear that even a Tiger CAN ricochet from T-34, even from 100m. If it hits a side of the turret for example instead of the front (the front is not much more than the mantled, everything left and right is sloped back and curved so you need to hit it in the center, close to gun.

Of course one shouldnt expect every hit to be a one shot kill. But by now it seems, that only direct ammo box hits are instant kills an this is far from realistic. Ammunition oftentimes was caused to explode by glowing debris for example.

Try this mod in practice version. Take a test map and do multiple shotings from Tiger to T-34 turret (then you are sure you are not hitting ammo boxes). In my tests it takes 1-2 hits to blow up a T-34 from Tiger, rarely 3, only once in my testings I have seen for hits needed.

Having read a lot about german WW2 tanking it appears to me, that the one shoot kill was standard (at least more than 50%) for Tigers and Panthers and not the exception

One shot kill was not standard, at least not for most guns. One shot knock-out is another matter. One shot kills from Tigers happened in 50-80% of the times IIRC when hitting T-34 hull, from some tankers reports. It also depened on which side was hit. On the other hand, I know relations of T-34 crews survinvins and evacuating a tank 1-2 hits from 88mm gun (only to get their tanks repaired in the evening). It all depends on where it was hit, what was the range (and kinetic energy of the shell), was the fuse OK...
Tiger should kill in 1-2 shots, if it does not (and it does in my tests) then it will be fixed. But first check it in practice mode, aiming from close range to be sure you are penetrating.

I dont know, if the current damage model, as experienced in game, is intended or still the hardly expected outcome of the surely not yet finished work in progress.

Yes it's a work in progress. The damage model in stock RO was just fixed point damage done by each hit and fixed tank "health" value. You always needed x shots to kill a tank, a number with a cumulative damage > tank health value. Hit in the ammo multipled damage done by 4 or 5, so caused instant explosion.

In 2.01 damage done was changed to be random in range of 30-150%, and shell damage values were tuned to give expected number of shots and probability of first shot kill (for example if tank health is 650, and shell damage is 500, then possible damage values are from 0.3x500 = 150 to 1.5x500=750,
As can be calculated, first shot kill probability is then 16.6%. For 800pts shell the first hit Pk is 57%.
Real probability in combat is higher, because part of shots are ammo hitbox hits and this is sure kill.

In 2.03 the min damage was lowered to 0% (so now damage is random from 0 to 150% of basic shell damage) and shell damage values were reduced about 10% to get number of hits-2-kill requested by players (well sometimes, as still 1-2 shot kills are often).

This system is far from perfect (but I believe it's already far more realistic than original RO damage?) and completly new damage system is planned. There will be no tank health value (or it will be used to different purposes, for example to make tanks burning ect) and instead od point damage done, each hit will make a probability of kill. it will be based on kinetic energy of the shell (after penetrating the armor), armor thickness (very thin armor makes much less shrapnels) and the size of HE filler in the shell. And maybe quality of the impact fuse. There still would be needed 1-4 hits to "kill" a tank, especially in case of less-lethal 75mm shells (only 18g of He filler in comparison to almost 50-60g in 88mm shell), but the crew can be killed much more easily than the tank made burning or exploding. In real life there were no "kill messages" so the target tank was shoot at untill it burned or exploded, because the shooter didn't know if the crew is killed or not...
The ammo hitboxes will be reworked and put in proper places and sizes (as possible with current hitbox system).

It just feels by now, that you are not fighting tanks, but moving ammo boxes with hardened emptiness around them.

Take practice mode and shoot at T-34 turret from a Tiger, you'll see that it can explode after just one shot, most often after two, and almost always after three.

Current damage of Tiger cannon shell is 630. Health of T-34/85 tank is 650. Average damage value is 472. First hit Pk is exactly 31%. Chance second shot kill is about 80% (not exact value, estimate).

Not sure if the new damage system will be done for next version, probably not, but the current system may be tweaked a bit again, maybe minimal damage will be increased to 10%.

I am sorry, if you consider my remarks as somehow flaming. I ensure you, that this is not my intention.
But I am somehow frustrated, that for me the "reality feeling" ist not even worse compared to 2.03 but even to standard RO.

You surely can have objections, comparing to reality, as it' work in progress, but comparing me to stock RO is something not fair IMO.


S

ome inaccuracies I am unhappy with:
- german 75mm and 88mm ricochet on IS2 below 500mm

And why they shound not ??? Of course they can, if the IS is hit at angle, or even at the side of the turret (anything much outside of the mantlet horizontally, is assumed to be side turret hit, and the angle is too big for penetration. Only 88L71 would have better chances hitting those sloped parts).

Can you argument why Tiger and Panther can not ricochet from Is-2 at this range ? Take armor thickness, penetration, angle and do some calcs. I will make this here in the first case, will leave you the rest to do yourself.

Is-2 front turret armor assumed 120mm against 75-88mm shells. Tiger can penetrate it from about 1200m at 0deg angle, Panther from 1650m at zero angle. Give or take 100m because each shot penetration is a little random, by 2-4%.

But at 30deg of angle the 120mm becomes >140mm of effective armor (with the formula used in current version, I posted it in 2.0 read me) and Tiger can penetrate it from only 450m ! Panther from 950m.

Front hull is 120mm at 30deg (lower hull is not modeled yet). What's effective protection of it you have above - about 145mm. Tiger can have maybe 20% of chance to penetrate it at 500m (the exact number is 400m but random factor makes that it have some chances at 500m).

If the is 2 hull with effective protection of 145mm is angled at 30deg, then it gives 165mm of protection - impossible for Tiger to penetrate from any range, and for Panther only from up to 150-300m

So what is so strange with IS-2 ricochets at 500m possible, if the IS is at some angle (not percfectly front) ? Even with IS frontally, the Tiger has very reduced chance to penetrate it's front hull.

If it was late war IS-2, then the front hull (upper) will be invincible for anything at any range (even 88L71 at point blannk, maybe 128mm could damage it). Only the lower hull would be vunerable to some extend, and the turret.

Now please argument why the Is-2 is too strong in your opinion, looking at above ?

It was a hard target, requring precise shot in the mantlet or range below 700-400m to kill the hull for Panther-Tiger. Very, very hard target for PZIV, in practice only possible from lucky mantlet hits at 300-400m or the close side shots. Check historical sources from what range Tiger and Panther commanders reported their IS-2 kills, read German test reports of captured IS-2 that list from what range IS-2 can be penetrated by Tiger and say me what is wrong ?

- german 75mm and 88mm ricochet on T34 below 1000mm

It should not if hitting the hull (or rarely, at higher angles for example you hit hull side). It's very possible to ricochet from turret, if not hitting it centrally. At what point were you hitting it and at what angle it was standing ?

- IS 2 seems to be unable to penetrate Panthers front armor over 500m (but gives you a one shoot kill if you hit the turret frontally)

And why it should be different ? Is-2 could kill Panther hull only from below 600-700m with AP ammo, at 0deg angle. APC ammo was much better, and later in the was Panther armor quality was decreased, so late versions of Is-2 can kill Panther from longer distances. But RO says "IS-2 model 1943" right ? It even has too good sight (from later IS-2) as I didn't give it proper one yet. Late IS-2 using APC ammo will be able to kill Panther front hull from long ranges, but it will depend on luck. Sometimes, especially at angle, even APC ammo may ricochet inside 1000m.

- IS2 side seems to be way too strong

Why you say so ? It was strong, especially at angle. How thick was it how do you think ? I can say you that it was thicker than Tiger side armor, and probably bit stronger too. Don't expect to penetrate it at angles higher than 30deg.

- Tigers back seems to be too strong. I wasnt able to penetrate below 1000m with T34 762 (bout 3 hits - no effect)

And why should the Tiger back be so weak ????????????? when it was a bit better armored than the side. Excuse me, but do you know the tanks we are discussing ? What their real protection was ? Then how can you expect to penetrate it from 1000m from T-34/76 ?? You need to be at 100-200m and have good angle in that tank.

- there ist still a "yellow" damage state - whats it about ?

It's coded in ROHud class, so I can't change it, and tank is yellow if the damage is higher than some value. Let me check... it means than tank health is 75%. Tank is in no way "weaker" in this state.
The "red" state currently means that you are burning (health 35% or less).

Suggestions
- can a turret rotation assemly (connection between turret an hull) hitbox be included? Tank crews were teached to hit there, because it ist a very vulnerable point for penetration, no matter from which side. Projectiles also dont ricochet there but are oftentimes even guided into the weak spot due to the bad armor geometry there.

What you wrote depends on tank construction. Some tanks had turret rings vunerable to penetration, some only to bejammed, and some not at all. Some kind of weaker armor/prone to jam/shot trap can be programmed in the future.

- there shoud be a small (increased?) chance of ammo and/or fuel tank explosions after every penetrating hit.

And there is such chance, 30% currently with Tiger hitting T-34. What means the tank "explosion" for you ? Is it only shell exploding or the ammo and fuel ? If a turret or rear hit (so no ammo hitbox hot) explodes the tank, it means the ammo or fuel exploded.
The chance is increasing with next shots, as the tank damage increases. To bue honest, I'm not sure if it should accumulate damage in the future. If the ammo was not detonated by the first hit, why should it be easier to detonate by second hit ? There are some physics effect that could cause some increase in ammo vunerability (like inreased temperature inside of tank afer penetration and possibly explosion), but I'm not sure if they are worth modelling.... A fire is another matter. If the hit sets inside of the tank on fire, the crew can only get away but then you don't need next shots at all, the ammo will blow anyway after some time...

- the yellow damage state should be replaced by somthing like "disabled turred" or "killed turret crew" if possible

I can't remove the yellow color, without modyfing ROHud. The turret jam or crew kill possibility - I have to code it first.

- correction of the penetration values

Correction to what precisely ??????

- increased probability of track damage, especialy after hits from the side

And why should a SIDE hit damage a track ? Do you thing there is much chance to hit the track from the side ?? You can hit wheels, sure, but track is rather narrow target... Much more easily you could hit a track from the front, but still the effect would depend on what hits what (122mm shell will break anything, 75mm shell would break thin T-34 track, but 76mm shell against massive Tiger track can just ricochet or do minor damage). HE shells would be preffered (direct hits from front or very close from side). The track damage system was not touched at all yet, it's like in stock RO, only from the front it may work different as front armor zone was changed a bit).

What I really like:
- the new "slow burnig death" mode. I was really surprised the first time it happened to me
- the already big variety of possible hits and their different results

It's still bugged, not works usually if youn sit in the turret and I don't know why :-/

- the more realistic reloading times
- the panther and stug gunsights

nice to hear it. they are still to be improved. new reticle graphics and new proper way of working (mowing reticles).

I dont use the stug by now, because of the damage model. Stugs superior tank killer capabilities are more than outbalanced by the now too resistant T34 values in 2.05. I liked it a lot before.

Stug shell with much lower kinetic energy than Panther's one, and only 18g of HE filler (55g in Tiger shell, 150g in 76mm shell) does reduced damage and multiple hits would be needed to blow up a tank. But crew could be incapacited after first penetration, and I hope to model this in the future.

The sound issue:
I would like to confim your observation, that it happens almost every time on arad. Can remember the impact sounds only from VoD.

It's under investigation now. Have absolutely no idea now how it can work OK on some servers, and wrong on others. Or is it map related...

Sorry again for all the critics, expecially because you have done all the hard work and I have done nothing at all.

The critics are absolutely OK, if they are about various mod features. I even think you are right in some aspects. But if the critics are about concrete values like penetration and armor, then they should be rationalised with numbers. Read first how the penetration model works (it's in 2.0 readme), take penetration and armor values (you may take real ones) and do the calcs yourself, and only then say something is wrong and show what. Something like "feel" that tank is too strong, or too weak, or penetration "should" or "should not" occur, is no argument at all.
I don't say that the penetration calcs are perfect, they are very basic, but based on real ballistic formulas and real numbers. I'm also not saying that nothing can be wrong there. I could make a mistake somwhere. But argument with numbers, not with feelings please. It's the only thing I ask for.

In the future I will probably just ignore people saying that something in penetration is "just wrong" or "feels wrong" without argumenting it with numbers. Not because I'm arogant, but answering each such post with detailed calculations, as I do now and did few times before, is too time consumin
The penetration model is published in readme, the tanks use real armor and penetration tables (only in few places tuned up or down because of non standard armor quality for example) so anyone can do the calcs and check it. Also I can't each time give detailed answers about such things like planned improvements, if I posted them before in this thread or in the ReadMe.

Regards