losing interest

[Rocker Fox]

I do what? When did I ask for a personal line or to be something special? wtf is my english really that bad??

No, your English was fine and i get what you want, you want a dev acknowledgment on every single issue right now apparently which is imo unreasonable amount of time spent on news updates.

They already stated they are working on zerker, they already are being clear what they are working on content wise and you came to the conclusion that they are not updating enough after only releasing 1 "what are we up to" update and not waiting to see what else they are working on.

What you need to understand is that they can't spend every waking hour of their day making posts and going "here is what we are doing now" if you still want them to work on the game and put updates out in a reasonable time. Again, no one has time for that and claiming that they are doing a ****ty job because they don't keep everyone in the know about every little thing they do is pure lunacy.

Go by the forums and use some common sense to figure out what they want to hear about. If you search and find a problem was never reported then make a post about it. If you search and find there has been 1k + posts on the issue already then post it in an existing thread or don't bother posting at all. It's what everyone else does and it's not rocket science to figure out how to use a forum search function.

They also don't want to tell you what not to look for because it effects player psychology and someone might go "oh, this is similar, they probably reported this already" and not report it. It also leads to the opposite happening with a larger number of false reports by people who are witch hunting for a bug that they did say they are looking for.

Sorry if you meant this in a different way but based off the original post (read, an entitled whine post about how he is an employee and needs weekly updates on every little thing) i could have only assumed the worst.

Edit: another reason the don't post every little idea and thing they have in mind, people tend to flip out when it comes to balance and they way some issues are addressed. Often when saying "we are testing this to see how it works" leads to people going "They are going to change this and make it worse! Panic, panic, panic, panic!" which causes a lot of unneeded headache, stress and stupidity vs just keeping quiet until they are ready to actually test it out.

 

[silverlighted]

Let me get this straight:
- Your response is it is impossible for them reply to every unimportant bit out there in a meaningful way, hence it is impossible to reply to a reasonable amount, a selection or very few at least as well.

Fine if that is your opinion. You shouldn't hope to convince anyone else of it though.

But they do reply to a few posts. You may not think that they are replying enough. But that is open for discussion.

I've seen enough of these types of threads across multiple game forums to know that they never actually improve player-Dev relationships.

Yep. And devs have feelings too. Sometimes the posts here remind me of customers in line that are yelling at cashier for something that MAY be a problem, but they're just completely out of line with it.

snip

*hugs* It will all be okay. You are not alone. And frankly, I just try to think that the unreasonable posts are just a rather vocal minority.

 

[Escadin]

Not every single issue. Only the important ones. The kind of issue that everybody is concerned about one way or the other. The kind of issue of which we currently only have like 10. Given that number there actually isn't any reason to be vague about it:

1. Voice commands in comparison to KF1.
2. Scrake/Hans AI bug.
3. Scrake/Hans balance.
4. Berseker skills and new role.
5. Commando's awkward skill choices.
6. Teleporting ZEDs.
7. Support meta.
8. Medics potential of being OP.

Well I guess I couldn't even come up with 10. All I wish them to do - not demand them to do - is to state whether or not these points are considered final or subject to change and if so maybe some outlines of the way they plan to address them just to get the general idea.

All of that in a small but specific paragraph each within their next "what we are up to" or perhaps a similar format if they want to keep the general stuff seperated from the upcoming.





Is that really too much to ask during EA? Does that really require every single developer of out 4 dozens+ to spend every waking hour on the forum? Does that really make me an entitled, immature child? I don't get it anymore...

 

[Rocker Fox]

*snip*

No it doesn't and i will say i jumped the gun and i am sorry about that but once again there are reasons there can't be answers as soon as it comes up. For starters there needs to be an overall team wide consensus on what needs to be done about a certain problem and time needs to be spend researching what is the best way to deal with it. I can bet there are office wide debates on what proper game balance looks like and how it should work based off of not only what they think but also what they read in News, saw in videos, saw on the forum and experienced themselves. I honestly feel like some of the fractured opinions on what to do about various problems on the forums also goes on in the office about many different aspects of development.

Going out and saying the first answer that has come to a developer's mind just to say something has gotten people in a lot of trouble in the past. Not only from fellow collages that had a different view but also with the community having a violent reaction to a change with a game or a developer's decision (See many of the blizzard title's forums, the game world of tanks and nearly any MMO after an announcement of a major change).

Yes, there are some issues that the community agrees on but another reason not to say anything is the amount of time it may take to get things right. Putting a date on anything for example can be worse than nothing at all. Take the PC Gamer John Gibson interview on how long till release. He said AT LEAST 6 months but people freaked out due to it being 2 months in and some things still not being added or updated. Even look at the EULA, they put that in clean words and announced what it meant and people flipped out completely. Even after the newest "what we are up to" people started to complain IN THE THREAD about how it was taking to long! If they stated the date it was going to be released it could still catch complaints from people about it taking to long and god forbid if they miss the date.

Even just mentioning something causes a light bulb to go off with people going "Ohh, that has to be soon, like next week soon!" when nothing was even mentioned about a date. Saying nothing is some times the safe bet sadly, you can land in more trouble from trying to keep your community informed instead of just saying noting until an update is about to be pushed.

Since it's also early in development i can't blame them for not spending time making news posts and trying to keep people in the know, first couple of months for any game is a all hands on deck situation and when you don't have a dedicated news and updates staff like a lot of larger companies it makes it even harder if you need to update every once and a while. Seriously, doing some reading tripwire has about about 50 people at max, it's not like it's a 300+ person company that can afford to lose a few people here and there, you have to manage your resources carefully when you don't have a massive dev team to work with.

 

[RoyLaPoutre]

Not every single issue. Only the important ones. The kind of issue that everybody is concerned about one way or the other. The kind of issue of which we currently only have like 10. Given that number there actually isn't any reason to be vague about it:

1. Voice commands in comparison to KF1.
2. Scrake/Hans AI bug.
3. Scrake/Hans balance.
4. Berseker skills and new role.
5. Commando's awkward skill choices.
6. Teleporting ZEDs.
7. Support meta.
8. Medics potential of being OP.

Well I guess I couldn't even come up with 10. All I wish them to do - not demand them to do - is to state whether or not these points are considered final or subject to change and if so maybe some outlines of the way they plan to address them just to get the general idea.

All of that in a small but specific paragraph each within their next "what we are up to" or perhaps a similar format if they want to keep the general stuff seperated from the upcoming.





Is that really too much to ask during EA? Does that really require every single developer of out 4 dozens+ to spend every waking hour on the forum? Does that really make me an entitled, immature child? I don't get it anymore...

Thank you! It's not too much to ask and it should be done by the devs. It's part of their job, even more with EA... Those issues were reported by tons of players and everybody agrees on these matters, and what did we got? Noting. How does TWI feel about teleporting zeds and all the rest? Will it be tweaked, removed or will it just stay as it is?? We don't have a clue about their opinion on important matters, and that's a big issue on EA. I personally want to know what they think of this massive feedback. It would take one post with one little paragraph per issue...

 

[superkiller]

What do you need, daily progress reports? They already do the "What are we up to" posts.

How does them acknowledging the bug report have anything to do with how long it takes to fix? Do you want a developer to come to every bug report and go "We estimate it will take 6 weeks to fix, assuming we can troubleshoot the memory leak"?

I work in software. I take bug reports and I respond to them, for people that are in actual business using our software.

So by comparison, gamers wanting to know if their pet peeve is going to be fixed and getting salty because a developer doesn't personally take time out of their schedule to pat their head, need to get a grip.

posted by Yoshiro in your "what we are up to"


This is our first State of the Killing Floor 2 Union Address. We are a couple of weeks in from our launch on Steam Early Access. During our time in Early Access we'll be bringing you regular updates on what we're up to and what's coming next (includes visuals of the new stuff!). Everybody here is working hard away at something. For some their task of investigating the critical bugs and crashes continues. While we fixed many of these with hotfixes and the first patch, there are still some left lurking that aren't giving us good data. To that end with the next update will include some additional logging and catching mechanism in hopes of getting us more information to address these issues.




do you understand what regular means

 

[outofrealman]

posted by Yoshiro in your "what we are up to"


This is our first State of the Killing Floor 2 Union Address. We are a couple of weeks in from our launch on Steam Early Access. During our time in Early Access we'll be bringing you regular updates on what we're up to and what's coming next (includes visuals of the new stuff!). Everybody here is working hard away at something. For some their task of investigating the critical bugs and crashes continues. While we fixed many of these with hotfixes and the first patch, there are still some left lurking that aren't giving us good data. To that end with the next update will include some additional logging and catching mechanism in hopes of getting us more information to address these issues.




do you understand what regular means

He is a tryhard defender of TWI, every post he make is basically calling people who disagree with TWI idiots. All choices TWI make is perfect in his eyes.

 

[Rocker Fox]

posted by Yoshiro in your "what we are up to"


This is our first State of the Killing Floor 2 Union Address. We are a couple of weeks in from our launch on Steam Early Access. During our time in Early Access we'll be bringing you regular updates on what we're up to and what's coming next (includes visuals of the new stuff!). Everybody here is working hard away at something. For some their task of investigating the critical bugs and crashes continues. While we fixed many of these with hotfixes and the first patch, there are still some left lurking that aren't giving us good data. To that end with the next update will include some additional logging and catching mechanism in hopes of getting us more information to address these issues.




do you understand what regular means

reg

 

[Stryker]

The maps aren't the problem, that's what the modders are for. It's the classes.To be honest i dont know how you guys can balance 4 classes when adding in the other 6 is going to unbalance them all. Release them all and balance from there.

 

[Lorkenpeist]

He is a tryhard defender of TWI, every post he make is basically calling people who disagree with TWI idiots. All choices TWI make is perfect in his eyes.

Um, I don't see how that follows?

 

[Rocker Fox]

The maps aren't the problem, that's what the modders are for. It's the classes.To be honest i dont know how you guys can balance 4 classes when adding in the other 6 is going to unbalance them all. Release them all and balance from there.

Yea but once again, if you were a game dev would you honestly disclose that plan? Going "we are going to release the perks first and then balance" which imo is a pretty good concept but once again not everyone agrees with that. You would make people like me happy but those who want balance first would flip out and declare the game a failure. That is the main point that i was reminded of when reading the news on a few other games, people are often to quick to react to news for anyone's good.

 

[outofrealman]

reg

 

[Rocker Fox]

TBH, what do we really get? Screenshots. That's all. We have huge problems right now, really. We know they are going to fix map glitches, but uneless perk choices? Teleporting? May be they will end up changing it in the next patch. However, and I believe most people here will agree, that this should be addressed when they spend time on the forum. They do spend time on forum, as we see their reply once in a while, but like many people here said, they never leave a single word on the serious problems. All we get is screenshots atm. Dont get me wrong, new maps is important too, but when something is complaint again and again from 10 out of 10 people like the TELEPORTING, I think the dev should at least express their opinion.

Yes, but if someone stated that then wouldn't you expect the fix to come soon? Maybe the reason they didn't comment on it or confirm it is because they either:

1. Don't know what they want to do about it yet.
2. Don't know how to fix the problem without causing a different problem.
3. Know what they want to do but don't have enough data to be sure.
4. Don't know how long it will take to fix said problem.

They also mentioned that they are fixing zerker and still trying to get more data for more accurate recording and reporting. If anything this screams to me that they want more numbers on a problem and for a lot of things the reason they arn't jumping because of option 3, not enough data.

Saying "We are going to do something" and not doing it or even being late with it can be even more damaging then just being vague and not confirming anything at all. On top of that you're acting like every dev has exactly the same opinion which is probably not the case at all.

 

[Nenjin]

Um, I don't see how that follows?

He's trying to insult me. S'alright. It's not a very effective one. I don't worship TWI, I just choose to be a lot more selective about what parts of the game I ***** loudly about. Clot grab isn't worth being a jack *** to TWI over.

Compared to the many, many, many game forum communities I'm part of, TWI's has to be one of the *****iest and least reasonable. Which is why I spend as much time defending TWI as I do pointing out what I don't like or don't think works about the game currently.

That and people have zero patience, which is always frustrating to read. KF2 isn't some sprawling game like Star Citizen (nor do they have ALL TEH MONIES like SC does), and working in a company about the size of TWI, I can sympathize with how much they need to get done with the people they have, and how much being told "IT'S NOT ENOUGH" by people who are supposed to enjoy your product (instead of just use it) sucks. And I include them talking to us as part of that.

Anyways, after all that, I think we're probably due for a really long John post at some point.

 

[MrRavens]

This thread is a poison. Can someone lock this? It has gone from a disscussion to a bunch of people at each others throats. It's going no where.

 

[superkiller]

corporate yes man

corporate yes man

He's trying to insult me. S'alright. It's not a very effective one. I don't worship TWI, I just choose to be a lot more selective about what parts of the game I ***** loudly about. Clot grab isn't worth being a jack *** to TWI over.

Compared to the many, many, many game forum communities I'm part of, TWI's has to be one of the *****iest and least reasonable. Which is why I spend as much time defending TWI as I do pointing out what I don't like or don't think works about the game currently.

That and people have zero patience, which is always frustrating to read. KF2 isn't some sprawling game like Star Citizen (nor do they have ALL TEH MONIES like SC does), and working in a company about the size of TWI, I can sympathize with how much they need to get done with the people they have, and how much being told "IT'S NOT ENOUGH" by people who are supposed to enjoy your product (instead of just use it) sucks. And I include them talking to us as part of that.

Anyways, after all that, I think we're probably due for a really long John post at some point.

you seem like a real corporate yes man

 

[superkiller]

two separate entities

two separate entities

reg

 

[Rocker Fox]

sure every two weeks there is supposed to be a major update,I read that.the statement said regular updates + a major update . cant you comprehend what you read.

I'm sorry, where in that quote do you see "regular updates + a major update"? Do i need to quote it again? Infact, i will quote the 2 that are currently out.

Hello everyone! It has been an exciting week or so for us here at Tripwire HQ (and we hope for you as well!). We've been watching the project we've been working on for the past few years get played and enjoyed by thousands!

But there is much more to be done! To start we have been focusing on critical bugs and crashes (with more to be done here as we move forward). But now that we have cleared away a good chunk, we are also looking at "what is next?". And if there is one thing we've seen over the past few days, it is that everybody else wants to know the answer to that question as well.

To help with that we are planning to do an information update (What We Are Up To post) roughly every two weeks. In these posts we will be talking about the upcoming content drops. As part of this you will be seeing work in progress shots (pictures for sure and possibly moving pictures!) of new weapons, perks and maps (and perhaps a few extra surprises).

We hope to kick these off officially this upcoming week, so stay tuned! But also, lets not forget that you don't just need to wait on us! Some awesome mappers are already hard at work with some great new content for you to play right now! http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=107932 Be sure to check out these new maps and give the mappers feedback! And there are even more on the way!

This is our first State of the Killing Floor 2 Union Address. We are a couple of weeks in from our launch on Steam Early Access. During our time in Early Access we'll be bringing you regular updates on what we're up to and what's coming next (includes visuals of the new stuff!). Everybody here is working hard away at something. For some their task of investigating the critical bugs and crashes continues. While we fixed many of these with hotfixes and the first patch, there are still some left lurking that aren't giving us good data. To that end with the next update will include some additional logging and catching mechanism in hopes of getting us more information to address these issues.

That isn't all that is going on. Data, data everywhere! From watching others play (both in-game and on streams), to forum discussions to live gameplay data from servers, we are absorbing it all. This is the area where we'll collect and collate date, listen and discuss - we don't have all the answers yet. Perk balancing discussions are ongoing (did somebody mention the Berserker yet? Yes? Ok), as are the feature refinement meetings (what do you, the players, dislike, and how can we change that). As we continue development we will be talking more and more about these items (what those items are will be ever changing as well) . But right now we are still figuring out much of that as we pore over data sets.

But what is the next visible piece? That we do know. While there are many irons in the fire here at Tripwire HQ (maps, perks, weapons, characters, bosses, more?) we are closing in on what will be the first content update for Killing Floor 2. We are pleased to announce the (Work In Progress) new map - Manor.

Set against a Swiss cliff side, this modern fortress hides many secrets. While the raging storm outside approaches, evil has begun to leak out from its imposing walls. You are being invited in (well you've been offered dosh to clear the place out!), are you up for the challenge?


And this is only the first of what is to come (see the previously mentioned irons in the fire)! We'll be posting more info very soon with more details - so stay tuned!

Where in either of those posts do they say that they are going to be doing weekly updates? All i see is them stating that they are hard at work with bugs, content and actually working on updating the game (which is what they should be doing in the first month....). If you mean "not regular enough for you" then too bad, every 2 weeks is still regular by the definition and to be expected early on. Not much they can do a weekly update with if they can't get any work done due to updating the news on the work they haven't finished yet.

See where that comes in? You can't expect a 50 man team to make weekly news updates and keep up with bug fixes, making content and game development unless you want a bunch of sentences going "I know that this bug/problem exists, that is all" for 10 lines. Out of all the people that made point to want more updates your the one who sticks out as being an entitled jerk.

You already stated you don't think they are a real company because of releasing in early access, you made it clear that you think you can treat the devs like they are a doormat because you spent money on their game and you seemed to make it fairly crystal that you think you're so important that the basic rules of etiquette and communication don't apply to you. You probably don't even give a dam what the developers are up to, you just want more to pick at and complain about.

 

[poosh]

First, please stop comparing entertaining software with business software. There os no place for Early Access in business. You can't offer business clients buggy, unfinished software, which from time to time may wipe their data and offer no guarantees that it'll work or that you'll finish it in a certain amount of time.

Second, please stop comparing Tripwire to other game developer companies. I do not preorder anymore (thanks to Gearbox and ACM). I do not participate in Early Access. I'm always waiting for finished, polished products. Which usually are available a few months after initial release and come with a discount offer. I MADE AN EXCEPTION FOR KILLING FLOOR 2! Because I trust[-ed] Tripwire. I bought Early Access version at day one. And I don't want to get disappointed. I don't want KF2 to become "another EA game", i.e. "yet another ****".

Tripwire has more than 50 employees. Not all of them are doing the same job. There are programmers; there are animation specialists; there are level designers; there are QA team and there is a community manager as well: Yoshiro.

There is no need to reply or even read every thread. There is no need of every dev to reply in every thread. There is no need in having a special dedicated person to represent TWI in the forums. All I'm asking is just to spend one "coffee break" per week to read and reply to most popular discussions, which bothers community the most.

TWI Level Designers could occasionally check Level Design section: besides tons of useless ****ty maps releases there are a few threads with questions and level design feedback, that are waiting for developer responses. QA team could participate in major balance threads etc.

Weekly reports aren't that much to pay respect to the people who trusted you and invested your money into your company.

 

[Curunir]

First, please stop comparing entertaining software with business software. There os no place for Early Access in business. You can't offer business clients buggy, unfinished software, which from time to time may wipe their data and offer no guarantees that it'll work or that you'll finish it in a certain amount of time.

Second, please stop comparing Tripwire to other game developer companies. I do not preorder anymore (thanks to Gearbox and ACM). I do not participate in Early Access. I'm always waiting for finished, polished products. Which usually are available a few months after initial release and come with a discount offer. I MADE AN EXCEPTION FOR KILLING FLOOR 2! Because I trust[-ed] Tripwire. I bought Early Access version at day one. And I don't want to get disappointed. I don't want KF2 to become "another EA game", i.e. "yet another ****".

Tripwire has more than 50 employees. Not all of them are doing the same job. There are programmers; there are animation specialists; there are level designers; there are QA team and there is a community manager as well: Yoshiro.

There is no need to reply or even read every thread. There is no need of every dev to reply in every thread. There is no need in having a special dedicated person to represent TWI in the forums. All I'm asking is just to spend one "coffee break" per week to read and reply to most popular discussions, which bothers community the most.

TWI Level Designers could occasionally check Level Design section: besides tons of useless ****ty maps releases there are a few threads with questions and level design feedback, that are waiting for developer responses. QA team could participate in major balance threads etc.

Weekly reports aren't that much to pay respect to the people who trusted you and invested your money into your company.

This is a lost crusade, brother. Almost everyone on these forums will defend TWI even if TWI staff drives over and strangles their cat, because hey, it was probably for the greater good and TWI always knows what they're doing, right!

Nobody will listen to reason and most will try to gang up and trample over any legitimate complaints about how TWI handles ANYTHING.

I too think that so far the EAccess launch and post-launch development of the game has been a mess.

It has been one full month. No balance patches for the current perks, no real bugfixes for the myriad gameplay issues, no information on release dates for new perks, no release date for the new map, very little communication even on the official forums.

Everyone who has been in an EAccess game before will (understandably) start getting anxious at this point and start asking questions.

I already sent a refund request. Not sure if Steam even does refunds for EAccess games but they usually do refunds if you state your problem calmly and provide details on your refund reasoning.