No, support describes that class better due to the higher ammo capacity and more carrying capacity
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Gunslinger Perk - Yes or No?
- Thread starter brphoenix
- Start date
No, support describes that class better due to the higher ammo capacity and more carrying capacity
this ^
I'm sick of all the arguments constantly looping; it's boring. The "yes" vote has beaten the "no" vote and a lot of non-TWI-forum people would be likely to love any new content.
Phoenix, why don't you make some sort of conclusion/update to the OP?
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Woah, increased run speed and siren resistance aswell?
Unstoppable.
and..resistance to Stun? What do you mean?
Unstoppable.
and..resistance to Stun? What do you mean?
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Its all in the link, last 3 paragraphs.
On the unstoppable front, bear in mind the Dualist will have no resistance to bloat acid, no resistance to husk fireballs, and will be grabbed by clots. Unlike the medic or Zerker he has no damage reduction (except for Sirens), so one hit from a husk and especially the bloat will cause him alot of problems.
He also lacks the cutting power of the sharpshooter and the speed of the commando, so mistakes for the Gunslinger/Dualist will be punished severely.
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I agree to everything here except the resistances, and the dual wielding extra damage and hipfire extra damage. Just make it less spread when akimboing (assuming there is a spread which i'm not really sure of since I never akimbo). And as for reload speed increase, 100%. Pistols are amazing for speed reloads.
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Ok just read the resistance to stun thing and it sounds godlike-ishly overpowered.
Literally unstoppable.
Literally unstoppable.
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Fair play, I'd have to disagree because the Dualist can't cut things down all that fast. And as I say, especially on suicidal things like Husks, Scrakes and Fleshpounds will cause alot of problems. Gorefasts upon a sucessful charge will cause major damage and woe betide the gunslinger if he walks into a bloat.
Sure the visual blur won't be such a problem, but the damage still will be, and unlike other perks, long range isn;t really a good choice for this perk, its close -mid at best, if not totally close range. Course things can always be chopped off if needed.
Dual wielding and extra hip fire damage is explained in the original post. There is next to no spread with dual wielding, only no ADS, and reloading is really the Commandos forte.
Thats my opinion at least. On to the point, whats you opinion of the Dualist?
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That is remarkably uncreative.
Just take some pre-existing bonuses and slap them together.
Also what is "stun"? Ain't that a specimen-only thing?
Now since no one apparently read my post, let me follow my own points:
_______
+pistol damage
+reload speed
+ammo mags
-Gains a temporary reload speed boost when killing something (+10% for each kill, stacks up to 50%, lasts for 5 seconds, timer being reset with each kill so you can chain reloads?)
-Autofire with akimbo handguns
-Shooting specimens with dualies gives a higher chance to make them flinch (dance!)
-Extra damage with single handguns
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Far as I see it: -
- No real protection from common specimens
- Relatively low damage output per shot (Given rate of fire)
- Single shot fire rate, difficult to get damage down (Given relative low damage)
- Rather short effective range
- Lack of ADS making accuracy more of an issue
Alot of these as you can see overlap, and although individaully they aen't a major hinderance, together they do cause problems. Kinda like its bonuses there is nothing that particularly stands out as a major advantage, after all the perk was designed to be rather versatile.
However when combined together its weaknesses do give the Dualist a number of situations where it would struggle. Large numbers of moderate specimens for example can easily overwhelm the Dualist, or a couple of big specimens, without allied support will also create big problems for the Dualist.
To answer your question more precisely, he doesn't have a major weakness, he has a number of small weaknesses that combine to make it hard for him when fighting alone. He is best employed when specimens are widely spread or engaging an ally.
Well I did design it to follow the trend of other perks rather than come up with something totally new and far different from the norm of the game. Also Dual wield damage, hip fire damage, and reduced stun effect are 3 new ideas far as I can tell.
I'll post this stun thing since it seems to be causing alot of issue.
Spoiler!
Remember this only reduces screen effects and not damage.
Yeah those perk bonuses are the kind of thing I wanted to avoid.
+5% reload speed per kill is completely different to how any perk currently works. It is against the trend where its a passive inherant effect rather than an actively changing effect.
Auto fire would be a bit of a problem don't you think? Personally I like full control of when my bullets fire without the game assisting me.
Increased flinch chance, fine really, no complaints.
Extra damage with single pistol, kinda keeps dual wielding off the table as a potentially unique ability, making it like every other perk in the game. Also very similar to my hip fire idea, with a little less uniqueness.
Not cutting your post apart dude, just don't know what you mean by saying I'm unimaginative, but hey if people don't like my idea thats fine, as long is their own gives the Dualist something unique that doesn't deviate from the trend of other perk bonuses.
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If you have dualies, you have a high rate of fire, twice the ammo but no helpful ironsights.
Major weakness of that is enemies that are further away since you can't aim right.
If you have single guns, you have higher damage and precision but clickety-click rate of fire only
Closer enemies are your weakness if you chose to go that way though as you lack the ability to pump them full of lead point blank.
As for what specimens his archenemies are, same as commando.
AKA none with a slight tendency towards fleshpounds.
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Good point, I suppose I didn't think it through too much, not to say that the name "Gunslinger" is more original, Think before saying is a thing I have yet to master.
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No real protection from Common Specs - Deagle, 9mm, body armour.
Relatively low damage output per shot - Dual deagle, Single deagle.
Single shot fire rate - Deagle
Effective range - Deagle, Revolver (?)
As you can see, purchasing a deagle and body armour will scale down most of these weaknesses to just slight annoyances. Even more so with 30% extra ammo.
Every perk should have some major weaknesses, at least 1.
Now let's imagine for a moment, a pre-Level Up but after Heavy Metal Killing Floor, when it was IMO the most balanced.
All perks had their major weaknesses.
SS = Close range.
Support = Expense, Reload timing, Only short range, Ranged specs.
Zerk = Ranged Specs, FP.
Medic = No damage increase, so the usual suspects, Scrake, FP.
Commando = Scrake, FP.
Firebug = Scrake, FP.
Gunslinger = Low rate of fire?
Versatility is overpowered, Gunslinger is pretty much the M14 in perk form.
Relatively low damage output per shot - Dual deagle, Single deagle.
Single shot fire rate - Deagle
Effective range - Deagle, Revolver (?)
As you can see, purchasing a deagle and body armour will scale down most of these weaknesses to just slight annoyances. Even more so with 30% extra ammo.
Every perk should have some major weaknesses, at least 1.
Now let's imagine for a moment, a pre-Level Up but after Heavy Metal Killing Floor, when it was IMO the most balanced.
All perks had their major weaknesses.
SS = Close range.
Support = Expense, Reload timing, Only short range, Ranged specs.
Zerk = Ranged Specs, FP.
Medic = No damage increase, so the usual suspects, Scrake, FP.
Commando = Scrake, FP.
Firebug = Scrake, FP.
Gunslinger = Low rate of fire?
Versatility is overpowered, Gunslinger is pretty much the M14 in perk form.
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Wishful thinking.
Name 1 weakness the support specialist has.
And by "weakness" I mean "an enemy that's damn near impossible to kill" instead of that wishywashy "strength" of being able to combine weapons to cover both close- and long range.
Play with the hunting shotty only then.
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True, the support's biggest weakness is the lack of fire rate. It's how they always get overwhelmed; they can't shoot fast enough.
Also, me and Zeron have chatted about the amount of moderator/dev silence and this:
(no offense to anyone is intended here. Magical moderator can remove if wanted.)
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2 ideas regarding perk bonuses:
*GENERAL recoil reduction: 40% or so (works on all weapons)(logical by the reasoning that the Gunslinger is used to running and shooting with one weapon in each hand, which causes quite alot of recoil!)
*Pistol ironsight runspeed and weaponsway penalty reduction: 75% (when you use ironsight, the runspeed penalty and the "sway right and left" with your weapons, are dramatically reduced, which is DEFINITELY a fitting "run and gun" bonus!)
Imo, the suggested Siren and Stun resistances would be better for the Berserker.
And the ZED time damage bonus to me seems too randomly occuring and too unrealistic.
@Undedd Jester:
Damage bonus while dualwielding, while somewhat unrealistic, is a nice way to emphasize dualwielding for sure! Hipshot damage bonus though, is not that great imo. Especially not considering my own ironsight suggestion
Thoughts on weaknesses:
As you can carry maybe all your weapons together (Weight suggestion: Dual 9mm = 2kg, HCs and G18s = 4kg, and Revolver 4kg = 14 total) the perks maximum performance and ammo is balanced around having all of these weapons (meaning it's a bit expensive perk, although not "Demolitions"-expensive). Like the HCs currently are, ammo is actually quite low, especially if dualwielding.
Another weakness lies in the dualwielding itself, being able to spam alot causes reduced accuracy, unless being careful. This once again also makes ammo something you need to be careful with.
Another weakness, exception being the Revolver and slightly the HCs, is that all bullets are rather weak, meaning you have to either spray alot (meaning lots of misses and ammo wasting) and/or be very skilled with your hits and/or be very close up (meaning a dangerous area to be) to kill the heavier targets.
*GENERAL recoil reduction: 40% or so (works on all weapons)(logical by the reasoning that the Gunslinger is used to running and shooting with one weapon in each hand, which causes quite alot of recoil!)
*Pistol ironsight runspeed and weaponsway penalty reduction: 75% (when you use ironsight, the runspeed penalty and the "sway right and left" with your weapons, are dramatically reduced, which is DEFINITELY a fitting "run and gun" bonus!)
Imo, the suggested Siren and Stun resistances would be better for the Berserker.
And the ZED time damage bonus to me seems too randomly occuring and too unrealistic.
@Undedd Jester:
Damage bonus while dualwielding, while somewhat unrealistic, is a nice way to emphasize dualwielding for sure! Hipshot damage bonus though, is not that great imo. Especially not considering my own ironsight suggestion
Thoughts on weaknesses:
As you can carry maybe all your weapons together (Weight suggestion: Dual 9mm = 2kg, HCs and G18s = 4kg, and Revolver 4kg = 14 total) the perks maximum performance and ammo is balanced around having all of these weapons (meaning it's a bit expensive perk, although not "Demolitions"-expensive). Like the HCs currently are, ammo is actually quite low, especially if dualwielding.
Another weakness lies in the dualwielding itself, being able to spam alot causes reduced accuracy, unless being careful. This once again also makes ammo something you need to be careful with.
Another weakness, exception being the Revolver and slightly the HCs, is that all bullets are rather weak, meaning you have to either spray alot (meaning lots of misses and ammo wasting) and/or be very skilled with your hits and/or be very close up (meaning a dangerous area to be) to kill the heavier targets.
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I don't see what you guys see is the problem, you say the Gunslinger would be a usless perk being over seen by every other perk, I think if he has enough power to take a Scrake or Fp out in 4-6 shots with a new added revolver at level 6 on a hard server, would be a very promising perk to help a Firebug or Medic in danger, sure he may have a hard time trying to power over the other perks but it would be a great new addition to the game. Revolvers can have some serious power behind their shots, enough to take a head off of a scrake in about 3 shots im sure, the point im getting to is that the Gunslinger/Dualist/Pistoleer what ever you want to call it is a very good idea it could add some difficulty to the game instead of being a Sharpshooter, 1-2 shotting everything in sight or plowing through 10 specimens with 1 shot from Double Barrel/AA12, but making you have to get close to them only taking about 3 kills with 1 shot from the Desert Eagle at most. Your skill will be put to the test when your a level 6 Gunslinger and you have a Scrake/Fp rushing you and all you have is the last 6 shots in your beautiful revolver that have to take him down or its over.
In another post i said the Gunslinger should have the ZED extension just for those few fatal shots that could be needed, and that is still my opinion, cause you know at one point your gonna get freaked by a large mob coming for you and you will start spraying with your akimbo 9mms but why do that when you could have the special of being in your own fast reaction time being able to pick your shots like a pro?
My thoughts for the Gs's Perk abilities(Level 6)
50% more ammo for 9mm and HC
75% faster reload speed
50% more damage for 9mm HC and whatever other weapons with be applied
Fast reaction- No motion blur from damage or turning very fast
65% less recoil for 9mm HC Etc.
Along with some sort of firing speed increase,zed time increase, or something completely new to make this perk even more one of a kind.
(Comment on these if you want, just my thoughts/opinions.)
One last thing, someone said, "The YES vote has already beaten the NO vote so the arguing should stop", All i have to say is i agree the Gunslinger perk is very exciting to a few people and less to other and that is there opinion, im not saying they have to change their opinion or that their opinion doesn't matter to us, but that if you have nothing positive to say then don't say anything at all, you don't have to use this perk if you don't want to it's for the people who want to use it. Who knows you might use it one day and love it. Sorry for babbling.
In another post i said the Gunslinger should have the ZED extension just for those few fatal shots that could be needed, and that is still my opinion, cause you know at one point your gonna get freaked by a large mob coming for you and you will start spraying with your akimbo 9mms but why do that when you could have the special of being in your own fast reaction time being able to pick your shots like a pro?
My thoughts for the Gs's Perk abilities(Level 6)
50% more ammo for 9mm and HC
75% faster reload speed
50% more damage for 9mm HC and whatever other weapons with be applied
Fast reaction- No motion blur from damage or turning very fast
65% less recoil for 9mm HC Etc.
Along with some sort of firing speed increase,zed time increase, or something completely new to make this perk even more one of a kind.
(Comment on these if you want, just my thoughts/opinions.)
One last thing, someone said, "The YES vote has already beaten the NO vote so the arguing should stop", All i have to say is i agree the Gunslinger perk is very exciting to a few people and less to other and that is there opinion, im not saying they have to change their opinion or that their opinion doesn't matter to us, but that if you have nothing positive to say then don't say anything at all, you don't have to use this perk if you don't want to it's for the people who want to use it. Who knows you might use it one day and love it.
Sorry for babbling.
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Reloading's not really the commando's forte. 35% faster is only slightly useful on shotguns/demo except those two weapons are much better used on their primary perks and on a commando most people wouldn't use other weapons other than a generic ak/scar combo. Sharpshooters have what, a 60% or something reload faster rate? Seeing how the gunslinger is more of a run and gun class that focuses on maneuverbility and moderate damage, it should be given extremely fast reloads to keep the firing going.
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Meh its hard to say without looking at a working example in game. Remember its just as easy to underpower something as it is to ovepower something, so do bear in mind alterations still need to keep the perk unique AND playable. That aside, if anyone wants to pick things to be cut out or altered to be better balanced, the floor is open.
I wasn't posting it as a definate "This is what the perk should have", it was more a "this is what looks balanced to me, any ideas for alterations are welcome".
I've explained why I think it would be balanced as is, but if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
To Conlude: I'm more interested in if people like the overall concept more than the actual stats that I've put forward
I wasn't posting it as a definate "This is what the perk should have", it was more a "this is what looks balanced to me, any ideas for alterations are welcome".
I've explained why I think it would be balanced as is, but if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
To Conlude: I'm more interested in if people like the overall concept more than the actual stats that I've put forward
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