Gunslinger Perk - Yes or No?

[zfroggyman]

Well regarding the point about liking shotguns, demo, ect, those classes actually add significant different weapon dynamics (shotguns for closequarter crowd control, demo for longer distance crowd control, firebug for softening mobs, commando to pick off most mobs coming from everywhere (along with EBR sharpies) and sharpies helps take out the big ones. Berserker distracts mobs and mele which is completely different from any other class (and medic heals). BUT gunslingers can only take the role of the commando or sharpshooter. It is completely nothing different enough to warrant its own class. Especially if you argue for versatility which either will make it stronger than Commando or sharpshooters, or weaker than either one, the latter resulting in players choosing a commando and a sharpshooter to get better results in higher difficulties rather than go as a "jack of all trades master of none" that does the job of commandos and sharpshooters worse. There's a reason handguns are always backup weapons. Making a perk based around a backup weapon may become a "fun class" but it does the job worse than the classes it's trying to become (unless you make it stronger than either one undermining the use of sharpshooters and commandos). Thus, this is completely redundant. Just make it a small sidearm bonus for every class but much weaker than primary weapons so that it actually becomes what it is: a backup weapon. There really isn't any advantage of having a versatile class does the job of every other class worse. 6 gunslingers won't be as good as a team with one of each class (again, unless gunslighers gets a massive buff that make it primary strong which will result in undermining other classes)

 

[brphoenix]

Well regarding the point about liking shotguns, demo, ect, those classes actually add significant different weapon dynamics (shotguns for closequarter crowd control, demo for longer distance crowd control, firebug for softening mobs, commando to pick off most mobs coming from everywhere (along with EBR sharpies) and sharpies helps take out the big ones. Berserker distracts mobs and mele which is completely different from any other class (and medic heals). BUT gunslingers can only take the role of the commando or sharpshooter. It is completely nothing different enough to warrant its own class. Especially if you argue for versatility which either will make it stronger than Commando or sharpshooters, or weaker than either one, the latter resulting in players choosing a commando and a sharpshooter to get better results in higher difficulties rather than go as a "jack of all trades master of none" that does the job of commandos and sharpshooters worse. There's a reason handguns are always backup weapons. Making a perk based around a backup weapon may become a "fun class" but it does the job worse than the classes it's trying to become (unless you make it stronger than either one undermining the use of sharpshooters and commandos). Thus, this is completely redundant. Just make it a small sidearm bonus for every class but much weaker than primary weapons so that it actually becomes what it is: a backup weapon. There really isn't any advantage of having a versatile class does the job of every other class worse. 6 gunslingers won't be as good as a team with one of each class (again, unless gunslighers gets a massive buff that make it primary strong which will result in undermining other classes)

Paragraphs. Use them.

Acually replying, though.

There is one thing you're overlooking.

If you happen to be a commando and has a firebug right next to you, and you see three FPs spawn (in suicidal) right in front of you. What will you do?

The Sharpshooter is nowhere to be seen, and neither you nor the FB posess enough firepower to take them down.

Or, if you're the sharpshooter (and you dislike EBRs and won't use them - and you're not using pistols as well) and 10+ gorefast spawn close to you.

A commando/firebug/support is nowhere to be seen, and you don't posess enough rate of fire to take them down.

In both those cases, you'll die.

And that's because you lack the correct weapon to take those zeds down.

Being a gunslinger means you'll always have a weapon to do the job. Of course, you won't be able to take down single handedly three FPs on suicidal, but I assure you you'll have much higher chances to take them down than a commando would.

A gunslinger adapts to the situation he's facing. No other perk does that. Say what you want, but no other perk can handle every situation he faces with relative ease (except an EBR sharpie, which is why it needs a nerf). And I say relative because you could take down a FP even with a firebug alone on a 6-man suicidal server. But it's incredibly situational, and bogs down to luck more than skill (no other zeds spawn to bother you, environment helps, etc)

This is the gunslingers biggest accomplishment: replacing luck by skill. A skilled gunslinger will be somewhat able to handle everything.

And as said hundreds of times, you won't be able to do it better than the classes meant to do it.

I believe you're not correctly understanding this. You can't compare the gunslinger to a single perk, or compare him to a situation with both the extremes present (Commando + Sharpshooter). Of course a pair of commando + sharpie will fare off better than commando + guns or sharpie+ guns, or guns + guns. However, the gunslinger shines when you lack one of those perks. Teaming up with a firebug will give that player the protection of both a commando and a sharpshooter, though weaker. While FB+Comm will do well against certain types of zeds, it'll fail against others, and likewise for FB+Sharp.

 

[C_Gibby]

What phoenix said. ^

Jack of all trades, master of none.

He can fill any role but the REAL master of the role will always outshine him.

 

[zfroggyman]

If you are in a situation where you can't take down 3 FPs because you are lacking the class to do so and you can't rely on your teammates, then you shouldve rolled as a sharpshooter in the first place. In your example, if just by having a gunslinger can take down 3 FPs then you are much too overpowered (or the map is very big in which case you shouldn't be losing in the first place or it would mean you and your teammates must suck alot). When the gunslinger class can do the role of the commando or sharpshooter just as good or better, you have just made them useless. We don't need more EBRs added to the game.

You even stated yourself that "the gunslinger shines when you lack one of those perks." Does that mean if you were "one of those perks" then you would make the gunslinger useless? Every class can easily handle trash mobs below the level of skrake. Thus the gunslinger is only presumably useful in takign down skrakes or FPs, but like i said before, if you really need to take them down, go as a sharpy (which Gibby even said that a real master will outshine the gunslinger). So basically in a 10 wave game, waves 0-6 you can play as any class you want and still be better than a gunslinger since all other classes are in fact very good masters at takign down trash mobs, and once the FPs start rolling in, rolla sharpie with xbow. AND this is still assuming you are playing solo. If you had teamates, they should be able to take of trash mobs even if they suck *** as long as you all stick together. If you find that you HAVE to run this gunsilnger class to play as every perk in the game simultaniously in a server to make up for sucky players then just leave and join another one.

Now if you just want to have fun using pistols only, I'm all for it, just make it a sidearm the level of a bullpup available to everyone.

 

[brphoenix]

If you are in a situation where you can't take down 3 FPs because you are lacking the class to do so and you can't rely on your teammates, then you shouldve rolled as a sharpshooter in the first place. In your example, if just by having a gunslinger can take down 3 FPs then you are much too overpowered

Stopped reading here.

If you want to make a counter-argument, try and read my previous post.

Return when you've done that.

 

[zfroggyman]

"If you happen to be a commando and has a firebug right next to you, and you see three FPs spawn (in suicidal) right in front of you. What will you do?

The Sharpshooter is nowhere to be seen, and neither you nor the FB posess enough firepower to take them down."


come again?

if you are talkijng about when you said "Being a gunslinger means you'll always have a weapon to do the job. Of course, you won't be able to take down single handedly three FPs on suicidal, but I assure you you'll have much higher chances to take them down than a commando would." ----I just ignored this part because not only does this prove nothing, it shows that gunslingers will be just as useless as you all die anyhow.

 

[brphoenix]

"If you happen to be a commando and has a firebug right next to you, and you see three FPs spawn (in suicidal) right in front of you. What will you do?

The Sharpshooter is nowhere to be seen, and neither you nor the FB posess enough firepower to take them down."


come again?

if you are talkijng about when you said "Being a gunslinger means you'll always have a weapon to do the job. Of course, you won't be able to take down single handedly three FPs on suicidal, but I assure you you'll have much higher chances to take them down than a commando would." ----I just ignored this part because not only does this prove nothing, it shows that gunslingers will be just as useless as you all die anyhow.

Yes, it's exactly that part.

Ignoring it "because it proves nothing"...?

Well, that's convenient.

You ignored that part then said it'd be overpowered because it can kill 3 FPs on his own.

And if you honestly think "gunslingers will be useless", then try and THINK.

How often have you been in a situation where you would've loved to be a sharpshooter? Or a commando?

And don't say "then switch herp de derp" because you can't do that midwave.

 

[9_6]

This is the gunslingers biggest accomplishment: replacing luck by skill. A skilled gunslinger will be somewhat able to handle everything.

Just like the commando.

I thought you guys came up with something unique that would give it a reason to exist already?
Versatility isn't exactly that key point that sells this. The support specialist is just as versatile.
There are no archenemies for him either.

Did you make up your mind on any specifics just yet?
Like what unique key abilities does this perk have?
Only more damage during zed time is kinda... weak.

All other perks have more than one unique trait.

 

[zfroggyman]

I actually never had that situation happen because if I had a incompetent team, I will take the skrake/fp killer perk (xbow + handcannon). Not to mention I have no problems taking out all other mobs with the handcannon even if my crappy teammates couldnt even handle those.


"You ignored that part then said it'd be overpowered because it can kill 3 FPs on his own."---wrong, I said it would be overpowered because it can kill 3 FPs to prove a point with an argument i wrote later on to show that if it COULD do that it would be overpowered, but if it cannot do it, then you are as useless as a commando because both of you are gona die anyhow.


And on that "switch herpaderpawhatever" part, if you can't tell how good your teammates are and you want to win, and it's wave 7 in a 10 wave round, then run a sharpshooter. You don't wish for things to happen you plan ahead.

Bottom line, again I have to rewrite this part because you don't read arguments fully, every class can deal with trash mobs below FP, thus gunslingers will be naturally inferior to any other class that deal with these mobs. This leaves the gunslinger for adapting to kill scrakes and FPs, but Demo/sharpshooters still do this better. So gunslingers are inferior in every way.

oh and 9_6 ^



Final edit, the only way this class will warrant its own class is if it was given faster movement with loads of ammo for a true run-and-gun class, where you dont do a extremely high DPS, but with loads of ammo and maneuvering you still kill.

 

[brphoenix]

I actually never had that situation happen because if I had a incompetent team, I will take the skrake/fp killer perk (xbow + handcannon). Not to mention I have no problems taking out all other mobs with the handcannon even if my crappy teammates couldnt even handle those.

Let me remind you that the sharpshooter is overpowered. You being able to handle every situation given to you like the sharpshooter can is overpowered.

And I'm not necessarily talking about a crappy team. Think of a good team that has been split up. You end up as a commando, and you have one team mate next to you who's anything but a sharpshooter. If a few strong zeds show up, you're dead.

Or you're a sharpshooter and you've got no HC ammo left. A huge group of clots and crawlers appear, and you're ****ed. Because you can't kill them fast enough.

These are the situations where you'd shine the most as a gunslinger. The fact that you can easily switch your playstyle by pressing one button to adapt to what you'll have to face.

EDIT: PLEASE don't add more stuff to your posts two seconds after posting. Just write it down already.

 

[zfroggyman]

Let me remind you that the sharpshooter is overpowered. You being able to handle every situation given to you like the sharpshooter can is overpowered.

And I'm not necessarily talking about a crappy team. Think of a good team that has been split up. You end up as a commando, and you have one team mate next to you who's anything but a sharpshooter. If a few strong zeds show up, you're dead.

Or you're a sharpshooter and you've got no HC ammo left. A huge group of clots and crawlers appear, and you're ****ed. Because you can't kill them fast enough.

These are the situations where you'd shine the most as a gunslinger. The fact that you can easily switch your playstyle by pressing one button to adapt to what you'll have to face.

EDIT: PLEASE don't add more stuff to your posts two seconds after posting. Just write it down already.

But you just edited after seconds after posting. Ok jokes aside,

A good team would not split up. Was playing on insane with 0 sharpshooters in biotic lab with commandos and supports and a medic and a firebug. By sticking together at the spawn, we annihelated everything with ease.

I dont run out of HC ammo if my team splits because mobs splits as well. If my team splits, I would never camp out and will always be ready to move (preferebly back to the team but if not, stay far away form my team so more mobs tend to go after them. And even if I did, i still have 9 mm which is more than enough to deal with crawlers/clots/gorefests even as a sharpshooter lvl 0 by backpedaling.

And I have to edit:
If your team splits and it's on insane, it's not a good team (unless you're on easy maps like shoppin-fin having players camp corners of long tunnels on each side as a split.

And one more edit:
This is still assuming that the team splits and i go off alone, which I will only do if I am confident I can take anything that comes.

 

[Lepallastan]

Just my opinion. Gunslinger would be a great perk despite the many good points people have posted on this thread saying it is a flaw. Gunslinger would be good for taking out heavy monsters such as Scrake and Fp if they did add a strong revolver and you were a high level in the perk. The idea of adding ZED time to the perk is a good idea in my opinion, it would be the best timing for the Gunslinger to start getting those lethal shots in on his/her targets.

I can see why some people suggest the perk would be useless since it wouldn't be able to outshine the other perks(maybe berserker) but certain people are very good at using the weakest guns to take out the best enemies. The idea is perfect, not everyone can use sharpshooter that well, I know I cant, It would be able to take out crowds with akimbo 9mm's easily and could damage the heavier monsters with a stronger pistol such as a revolver or the desert eagle making the other players around you able to defeat them with more ease and making this perk a good support to a Firebug, Medic, or Berserker. Gunslinger should also have a new gun added to it. My idea for a new pistol is a is a Tactical P228, 13 rounds, damage between 9mm and Desert eagle, Flashlight, and a good accuracy even when shot at a rapid speed.

The Gunslinger perk would also be good for someone who wants the Sharpshooter feeling with a little kick of Support added to it. I got my Sharpshooter up to level 5 and the whole time I was thinking, this isn't fun at all, none of these monsters are a threat to me I am invincible at a range and this EBR is packed with enough ammo to take the next 10 waves without using the trader more then once(this was on hard). I switched to Support Specialist and began the fourth wave and had the most fun, I had to go near the zombies and be aware of any sneaky ones coming for me, I was only level 3 with my Support Specialist but I was taking good care of myself. I was thinking a pistol perk would be perfect for the mix of the two perks, I would have to go near them and shoot them from a closer range and still be able to get a longshot every once in a while.

Gunslinger could also be considered a solo perk such as Berserker or Sharpshooter. Gunslinger should also have a bonus to their armour, maybe the regular 100 at level 1 and 2, 120 for level 3, 135 for level 4, and level 5 should get 150 armour. I did say in another post(page 50 i believe) that the perk should also have earmuffs for protection against the Siren even though it may provide a little disadvantage in sound causing the realism to go down a little(without considering the fact that we don't have flesh-hungering beasties walking the streets). Extended mags are another idea that would spark this perk(Not the revolver of course, six shot chamber cannot be enhanced unless they make it an eight shot revolver) and give the player more control over the enemies he faces. My last idea and the end of this post is that the Gunslinger perk should recieve the ZED time extension so the player can put those finishing blows in the enemy coming, whether it is a FP or clot army(sorry for repeating this, but this perk ability, but it is a very useful for weaker perks or perks that are for taking out large amounts of enemies).

 

[Lepallastan]

When people think of Sharpshooter the pistol usually isn't something you would think of, So why should it be part of this perk? The EBR is perfect already, it has a load of ammo, good power, and it has such a little weight for its size. I think of two perks when i think of pistols, Gunslinger or a Small Arms Specialist not Sharpshooter. The HC shouldn't even belong to the Sharpshooter that gun is a powerful gun that should go to the Commando or Support Specialist at most, not the already overpowered Sharpshooter.

 

[SMIFF]

Let me remind you that the sharpshooter is overpowered. You being able to handle every situation given to you like the sharpshooter can is overpowered.

And I'm not necessarily talking about a crappy team. Think of a good team that has been split up. You end up as a commando, and you have one team mate next to you who's anything but a sharpshooter. If a few strong zeds show up, you're dead.

Or you're a sharpshooter and you've got no HC ammo left. A huge group of clots and crawlers appear, and you're ****ed. Because you can't kill them fast enough.

These are the situations where you'd shine the most as a gunslinger. The fact that you can easily switch your playstyle by pressing one button to adapt to what you'll have to face.

EDIT: PLEASE don't add more stuff to your posts two seconds after posting. Just write it down already.

So it can tackle any situation effectively?

You said it yourself that the sharpshooter is overpowered, yet this perk could come out on top of a situation that would normally kill sharpshooters.

How is that not overpowered?

 

[C_Gibby]

How is that not overpowered?

The situation that normally kills sharpshooters is the kind that commando can handle easily.

Commando isn't overpowered.

And anyway, the powerfulness of this perk can be described as two gunslingers doing the same job (in a 6 man game) are as effective as one of the main role-fulfilling perks.

E.g. a commando can kill a mob of clots much faster than one gunslinger, but if there's two gunslingers, the GS pair kill the mob as fast as the lone commando. etc.

 

[zfroggyman]

The situation that normally kills sharpshooters is the kind that commando can handle easily.

Commando isn't overpowered.

And anyway, the powerfulness of this perk can be described as two gunslingers doing the same job (in a 6 man game) are as effective as one of the main role-fulfilling perks.

E.g. a commando can kill a mob of clots much faster than one gunslinger, but if there's two gunslingers, the GS pair kill the mob as fast as the lone commando. etc.

So 2 commandos will be even better and just have a left over sharpshooter to deal with fp in the last few FP waves.

 

[C_Gibby]

So 2 commandos will be even better and just have a left over sharpshooter to deal with fp in the last few FP waves.

Dealing with FPs and Scrakes is what a sharpie is for... >_>

Enough arguing today, I'm off to bed.

 

[zfroggyman]

Dealing with FPs and Scrakes is what a sharpie is for... >_>

Enough arguing today, I'm off to bed.

So you pretty much just said that gunslingers are for trash mobs below that and said that commandos can do better, umm so how again are gunslingers needed?

 

[SMIFF]

The situation that normally kills sharpshooters is the kind that commando can handle easily.

Commando isn't overpowered.

Commando is overpowered.
That's for a different time though.

What I was trying to get at was the fact that Sharpshooter can pretty much prevail any situation, but the one situation that might kill him is the one mentioned above with all crawlers and everything.

BUT, that wouldn't stop a Gunslinger, which can also tackle any situation much like the Sharpshooter, yet the one sharpie weakness, isn't a weakness for the Gunslinger.

I recall brphoenix saying something along the lines of "Gunslinger is effective against everything, but not overpowered"

In a brief answer (If possible), How?

Don't tell me to read the entire thread.

 

[Lepallastan]

Maybe instead of gunslinger(not trying to say this isn't a beautiful idea) it should be named Small Arms Specialist? I have no problem with the name Gunslinger I just like the more... modern sound of Small Arms Specialist.