MG recoil - TW Please read

[Jippofin]

Produce successive groupings that tight ingame then Jippo, cause you haven't so far, no matter how many times you keep repeating that you have.

In the video posted by me all, not some but all, groups are tight groups.

And you can believe those markings, they are 100% accurate, checked and double checked. Furthermore only one group reached 25 MOA, the rest were between 2.5 to 5 MOA.

You are lying again. You really need to stop lying if you ever want to prove anything. I looked at the video again and they shoot several really poor groups, much worse than I did in the game. I don't think they show a single 5 MOA group after 4:30.

You really can not be trusted, sorry.

Anyway we're still stalking past the point, which is that prolonged bursts lasting anywhere from 1 to 3 seconds produce way to much muzzle climb ingame. It simply does not happen in real life.

You keep changing the point of your argument in every post you make so it is hard to follow.

Anyway here is a video that doesn't show any excessive muzzle climb:
mg.avi - YouTube
(From the post 92 of this thread by Tak.)

Also if you bothered to look at the practical accuracy video you will see that atleast half of the bursts string downwards, not upwards. In short, where's all that muzzle climb we're seeing in RO2 ? Again NOWHERE!

Really? Are you an idiot or do you have problems reading? And that is an honest question because I have answered this question to you in the post 22 of this thread. And I have made you a clickable link to that post again in the 97th post of this thread. Discussing requires two parties that are capable of understanding what the other party is saying, otherwise it is futile.

To add to that, in your reference material (at 4:30) the left target get's hit in the pelvis by first shot whilst the second shot hits the collar bone on the left side. How is that not a rising muzzle? Second hit is nearly one meter higher than the first one with both rounds barely hitting the silhoutte at 90 meters.

I am sorry but you are showing such a bad form here that the discussion becomes impossible.

 

[Jippofin]

I've shot an mg. I say it is not realistic. The jogging while firing fullauto is the most arcade like aspect of the game bar none. Even the silly 2 second bandage of a rifle round to the upper thigh pails in comparison to the circle strafing, full auto unloading of an mg in combat.

But if any of the TWI devs can display the ability, I'll concede. :IS2:

This is the real problem here with which I agree 100%. It should be impossible to move and fire like that.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Only one who's lying here is you Jippo, and it's mostly too yourself.

I will repeat what I've said multiple times by now: You did not produce even a single group in the video you posted that would correspond to atleast 4 successive groupings within 5-10 MOA in the practical accuracy video (with some as low as 2.5 MOA).

Furthermore most of the groups in the video string downwards, indicating what those of us who actually have fired machine guns already know, that there is close to no muzzle climb with a prone MG. What happens when you fire a prone MG is that the gun recoils back into your shoulder, and the whole gun either rises or falls a little bit in height depending on the position of the bipod. The muzzle of the gun does NOT begin to climb, and the buttstock is NOT pushed downwards as you claim - or should I say lie about, as you seem to be so fond of that word.

Also it should've been a pretty good clue for you that when groups string upwards, downwards and to the sides equally then there's very little muzzle climb going on, with dispersion being a result of the gun vibrating and not due to its' muzzle rising.

In short: MG behavior was accurately depicted in RO:Ost where the MG was pushed back into your shoulder and vibrated a lot, creating equal dispersion both in the horizontal & vertical. In RO2 however the MG is incorrectely depicted by exhibiting loads of muzzle climb that the player has to deal with, the MG behaving just as an automatic rifle fired in the standing or crouched position. That's just how it is, and it needs to be fixed.

 

[Jippofin]

I will repeat what I've said multiple times by now: You did not produce even a single group in the video you posted that would correspond to atleast 4 successive groupings within 5-10 MOA in the practical accuracy video (with some as low as 2.5 MOA).

Oh, that is the first time you ask. So I should get "4 successive groupings within 5-10 MOA". (And if I did it you would be asking something else. )

To show how absurd your claims are getting Let's look at the German qualifying system with MG3. To get the golden marksmanship badge (which is very, very hard to get) in the German army I should be able to get (out of 15 shots):

12 hits in three 18cm circles, one of them with two hits with in the 7cm circle, two of them with one hit in 7cm circles. Targets are at 25m distance.

18cm circle is 25MOA.
7cm circle is 10MOA.

As the video showed my level 9 gunner in game met the requirement to be within the top few percentage in Bundeswehr. The level of accuracy that you are asking is totally unrealistic.

Furthermore most of the groups in the video string downwards,...

Even that is not true.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Oh, that is the first time you ask. So I should get "4 successive groupings within 5-10 MOA". (And if I did it you would be asking something else. )

To show how absurd your claims are getting Let's look at the German qualifying system with MG3. To get the golden marksmanship badge (which is very, very hard to get) in the German army I should be able to get (out of 15 shots):

12 hits in three 18cm circles, one of them with two hits with in the 7cm circle, two of them with one hit in 7cm circles. Targets are at 25m distance.

18cm circle is 25MOA.
7cm circle is 10MOA.

As the video showed my level 9 gunner in game met the requirement to be within the top few percentage in Bundeswehr. The level of accuracy that you are asking is totally unrealistic.

MOA is a circular measurement, and as such it says nothing about muzzle climb as the dispersion could just as-well be horizontal as it could be vertical, and on top of this the vertical stringing could be a downwards one. Hence why we can't really use the Bundeswehr requirements for much, esp. if you need to put over 15 rounds in a single burst into a 10 MOA circle, which is very impressive indeed.

Btw, the accuracy firing MGs in RO:Ost was no better than these requirements, and the MGs behaved almost exactly as they should in that game.

Even that is not true.

Now you're once again guilty of your own accussations of lying because that is simply not true. I checked and double checked all the bursts fired at the target by the BAR in the video, and very few stringed upwards, the majority stringed mostly downward or horizontal.

In short, the muzzle climb you so persistently claim is there is nowhere to be seen, and the fact that you keep claiming that there is substantial muzzle climb just reinforces my belief that you have never fired a machinegun in your life.

 

[Jippofin]

Hence why we can't really use the Bundeswehr requirements for much, esp. if you need to put over 15 rounds in a single burst into a 10 MOA circle, which is very impressive indeed.

You really can't be that stupid, can you? You must be really ****ing with me now.

Can you read? Do you understand english?

Requirements are:
1. Must get 12 out of 15 rounds hit within 25MOA ring in minimum of 3 bursts on 3 seperate targets. (Can shoot as many, as short burst as possible, even single shots, AND THE SHORTER THE BURST THE BETTER.)
2. Of those twelve rounds 4 must be within 10 MOA ring

I understand that you would like to invent some fantasy standard that would support somehow your case but I would prefer we stick to real world standards when we are trying to judge realism.

Here is a quote of someone who actually holds the given award:

I managed to do this, however it was really, really, really hard to have a 2-bullet-burst hit the inner circle twice. I remember the first 2 bursts I was aiming for the middle of the inner circle and the 2nd bullet of each burst already hit the outer circle. On the third burst I aimed slightly uptop the bottom line of the inner circle. I made 2 hits inside, close to the bottom and top outline (so maybe 5-6cm away from each other).

Hmmm Mr. Unus, how is it. Do you understand english? Also can you tell us which way the barrel went.

For the latter part of your post, it is not worth the time spent in replying.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

In short: MG behavior was accurately depicted in RO:Ost where the MG was pushed back into your shoulder and vibrated a lot, creating equal dispersion both in the horizontal & vertical.

Better solution. Throw out all the current RO II MG behavior (and leveling) into the rubbish bin and emulate the MG behavior of Darkest Hour's (not RO I's) MG42...DH's is possibly the best representation of MG behavior. Jippofin, Unus Offa, Unus Nex I urge you both to try out the current DH5.0 MG42.

Anyway here is a video that doesn't show any excessive muzzle climb

Funny but in the video it seems that the player is desperately trying to keep the muzzle climb from 'escaping' but it gets away from him especially past the 0:17 second mark.

Are you an idiot or do you have problems reading? You really can't be that stupid, can you? You must be really ****ing with me now. Can you read? Do you understand english?

 

[Tak]

Funny but in the video it seems that the player is desperately trying to keep the muzzle climb from 'escaping' but it gets away from him especially past the 0:17 second mark.

You talk about me like I can't hear you! WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME?! I WANT A DIVORCE! /dramatears

All that aside, I freely admit it ran away from me on the second drum. My MG was level zero or one in that video, maybe two tops. I just thought with all the talk of RO2s MG in this thread we could use a video of RO2s MG in this thread.

I just fired up DH, and holy crap that thing is a tack driver! You can't miss with either of the German MGs unless you try to!

ROOst has a little more bounce to it than DH, possibly, but not by much. They may well be the same.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

I just fired up DH, and holy crap that thing is a tack driver! You can't miss with either of the German MGs unless you try to!

I think the story goes that when the map Dogreen was made the ROMG42 revealed itself to be as impotent as a bullet tosser at those ranges so it was thoroughly looked at and redone as the DHMG42.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

It's becoming quite amusing to watch you repeatedly dodgle the original subject of this discussion Jippo.

You keep bringing up the requirements for obtaining the German Golden Marksmanship Badge for the MG3 as some sort of proof, whilst at the same time being seemingly unaware of how completely useless it is to this discussion.

Let me repeat for you what this discussion is about in big fat capital letters: MUZZLE CLIMB

Now as you should know MOA is a circular measurement of accuracy used to determine the overall accuracy of a weapons system, one that doesn't distinguish between vertical & horizontal spread. What this means is that a group of shots at 100 y that measure a spread of 25 inches in the horizontal but only 10 inches in the vertical will infact be determined as a 25 MOA group, despite the vertical spread being under half that amount. It is a method that quite simply isn't meant to tell you anything specific about the characteristics of a weapon during fully automatic fire, but instead just to determine the overall accuracy of the weapon.

In short: The requirements for obtaining the Golden Marksmenship Badge are USELESS to us in this discussion, because we are still talking about MUZZLE CLIMB here and NOT the overall accuracy of the machine gun ! When in gods name is that going to sink in ??

So I will repeat once more what I have been saying so many times by now:

The MG's in RO2 exhibit an excessive amount of muzzle climb in the prone position as compared to their real life counterparts, so much so infact that overshooting your target is far more common in RO2 than shooting wide of it. As for real MGs, in comparison they exhibit very little to no muzzle climb during automatic fire, with dispersion being a result of the gun vibrating and not due to its' muzzle rising. This behavior was accurately depicted in RO:Ost where the MG was pushed directly back into your shoulder, the sight picture falling abit and vibrating a lot, creating equal dispersion both in the horizontal & vertical, corresponding well with reality.

 

[Klaus Stamper]

In my opinion, having served with the Irish Army, and having fired many of the weapons from WWII in several historical "rallies" as we call them, i feel that the MG gameplay, while its mounted is arguably very realistic. The MG34 in RO:HOS is pretty damn close to what iv felt, as are many of the other weapons, trouble is a lot of people don't use them for their intended purpose and complain that they are not authentic because they are either missing at range, or being killed by someone who is using it properly.
The rate of fire is spot on, as is the recoil, both axis included, and the truth is, the higher your accursed skill goes in the game, the less recoil you will have, which is a feature i do not like. In real life you don't just become good at it, you learn different factors for controlling the weapon, such as short burst firing, tilting the weapon while firing and pressing into the butt with your weight in your shoulder. Albeit the last one doesn't apply in game, but even so i think this is a viable excuse to bringup why the skill system is bull****

 

[Jippofin]

Now as you should know MOA is a circular measurement of accuracy used to determine the overall accuracy of a weapons system, one that doesn't distinguish between vertical & horizontal spread. What this means is that a group of shots at 100 y that measure a spread of 25 inches in the horizontal but only 10 inches in the vertical will infact be determined as a 25 MOA group, despite the vertical spread being under half that amount. It is a method that quite simply isn't meant to tell you anything specific about the characteristics of a weapon during fully automatic fire, but instead just to determine the overall accuracy of the weapon.​

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MOA is an ANGULAR measurement unit (hint: Minute Of an Angle). It is not used to measure accuracy of weapon, but precision of it. If you try to be an armchair general, please get the facts right first. It'll be more convincing that way.

In short: The requirements for obtaining the Golden Marksmenship Badge are USELESS to us in this discussion, because we are still talking about MUZZLE CLIMB ...

If you could comprehend written English you would have seen in the quote that it is MUZZLE CLIMB caused by the recoil that makes this a feat difficult...

But all in all how silly are you? If my inexperienced gunner is able to do better 95% of German army the recoil is too easy to control if anything! Shooting MG34 should be significantly more difficult to control to be realistic.Adding spread to the gun is not realistic, the real gun is precise (as we see on tripod mounted MG's), the game should be equally precise and equally difficult to control.​

And if you weren't such an *** with reading problems you would have read and understood what I have written in this thread. I am not quite sure how repeating things over and over makes a difference, but here goes nothing. After this you can be a retarded idiot by yourself, if you only wish to do so:​

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Post 22
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Bipod mounted machineguns are not easy to control. They will change their point of impact after first shot and on all consequent shots. Bipods are on a swivel and when the gun recoils rearward the barrel will go either up or down. If the bipod legs are tilted towards front (or are indeed up-right), the barrel will drop - if they are tilted towards rear barrel will rise. If the shooters shoulder will move the barrel will tilt more. Shooters shoulder will move in recoil. If the shooter doesn't know how to take the recoil into his body the barrel will also turn sideways causing the rounds to miss from either side, usually opposite side of the trigger finger. And all this happens in perfect conditions on the firing range. Remember that a movement less than the width of your finger is enough to cause one meter miss. You can't see that on a Youtube video....

Do you really want to bring this level of realism into the game? That the gun will run away in any given direction depending how you deploy and where (just like in real world(tm)), or shall we go with the easy "always up" gaming solution which makes our lives unrealistically easy now?​

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...Post 24

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There seems to be skill involved in using MG-class. Many people enjoy it just because of that, it isn't too easy.​

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I am one of those people, it is the class I like to play most and I would hate it being changed. It is a near perfect simulation of LMG in a shooter (sans the deployment problems / hipfire running&gunning) and it requires a skillset to use just like the real ones. Recoil isn't that bad since you are supposed to fire 1-3 shots per trigger pull to remain accurate and effective like in game. Sustained fire is pulling the trigger every 2-3 seconds (firing sounds like: brt-brt-brt-brt), not holding it pressed until the belt runs out (that is "I shat my pants because I think I am going to die" -fire.) Here is an example of how you should do sustained fire with an MG:​

Finnish machine gun kvkk - YouTube​

This works in game as well. You are supposed to use skill with trigger to manage recoil in game and in RL. Many soldiers posess these skills and so they enjoy the MG a lot and are happy to find a MG-slot open in-game.​

...Post 28

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The barrel going only up makes things easier, not harder, because I know into which direction to correct even before shooting, which is always not the case in real life.​

What you want is effortless lazy *** game were you can "own noobs" without any skill involved in doing so.​

RO2 has the best ever, including Arma et al., simulation of LMG because it forces the shooter to shoot short burst like a real gun does. But not only this, it also allows indefinate lenght fire but that requires working the mouse. This is definately easier than working the gun in RL, but it adds realism because you really have to do something to control the weapon. In real life this is done by shooters body, not the mouse.​

If you want to loose this realism, go ahead, be my quest. I do not ****ing care, heck I don't even play the game anymore. Also, since no amount reasonable writing is going to sink in your head, so why bother?​

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[Colt .45 killer]

Jippofin you arent helping your discussion by endlessly bashing other people. Anyone over the age of about 20 see's wildly throwing insults not as winning an argument, but loosing and not taking it nicely.

I've seen some of unus's or his mates videos on youtube hitting a steel gong > 1000 yards with various ww2 rifels, which adds some serious credibility to his comments.


Also, when you say MOA is not a measure of accuracy but a measure of precision. In this context are those not exactly the same things?

 

[Tak]

Jippofin you arent helping your discussion by endlessly bashing other people. Anyone over the age of about 20 see's wildly throwing insults not as winning an argument, but loosing and not taking it nicely.

I've seen some of unus's or his mates videos on youtube hitting a steel gong > 1000 yards with various ww2 rifels, which adds some serious credibility to his comments.


Also, when you say MOA is not a measure of accuracy but a measure of precision. In this context are those not exactly the same things?

Agree with point A.

Disagree with point B. If you had video of MG usage (not rifle) it might be different. They are different skills by a significant amount.

As to C, they are not the same in any context, though they are often used interchangeably in non-scientific conversation. There is probably a Wikipedia article on it.

This thread has devolved into name calling and repetition. Sad pandas abound

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Agree with point A.

Disagree with point B. If you had video of MG usage (not rifle) it might be different. They are different skills by a significant amount.

As to C, they are not the same in any context, though they are often used interchangeably in non-scientific conversation. There is probably a Wikipedia article on it.

This thread has devolved into name calling and repetition. Sad pandas abound

B was related to his mentioning weapon accuracy.

C To me as a gun owner / Collector if some one mentions a precision rifle, then I believe they are probably talking about something machined / produced to might higher tollerances. This will usually result in better accuracy. Precision shooting to me means the bullets land where they are supposed to repeatedly, which is synonymous with accuracy.



Either way I'll look up the wiki..

 

[Jippofin]

Jippofin you arent helping your discussion by endlessly bashing other people.

I have had 6 pages of polite conduct. I even learned how to make a video in game for this fellow. I say: enough is enough. Every reasonable argument has been dismissed without bothering to read or understand them or with arrogance and outright lies. I urge you to read our dialogue in this thread from start to finish.

I tried to be helpful and offer insight on how things are in RL, and I can not say I am too happy with the welcoming it got.

This kind of behaviour pisses me off:
Jippo:
"I can keep my shots 95% on the area between the center piece and top of the copper arc. That is about what I can do in the real life (less than torso size). "
Unus:
"At 100 meters ingame, at lvl 9? No way Jos

 

[Colt .45 killer]

I see you'r point and I'll go over the post and read it tommorrow when I have some time.

Not to nitpick but to me Accuracy is not hitting the target once, I would never sight in a scope by firing one round, say the groups are good and go home. I would fire multiple rounds to ascertain how good the accuracy was with those loads / that factory ammo.


Meh either way thats semantics, it probably shouldent bug me but it seems odd to me...

 

[Tak]

You want MG joy? Ogledow RO2. Geramn MG. Run forward to the crest of the hill and enjoy. Got a 329 meter kill earlier today, at level 3 or so MG. Gaggles of 150 to 250 kills. Very few short range kills because no one got close enough!

 

[Golf33]

Yep, Ogledow is a map where RO2 MGs will shine. Finally.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Jippo,

Your accusations of me lying are becoming very tiring, as are your vile and repulsive comments throughout this thread.

And it only gets worse that you keep dodging the real issue again and again and again, and that is muzzle climb. It really isn't a smart move on your part.

Anyway you claim that the ingame muzzle climb is realistic and try to provide proof of that by posting German Army Gold Marksmanship Badge requirements for the MG3, which demands 15 hits divided over 3 seperate targets within a 10 MOA circle (Did I interprete it correctly this time?), as-well as a low resolution ingame video of you firing mostly 2-3 round bursts at a large target (arching doorway crown).

Neither of these things however serve as proof to your claims. Infact we can very shortly address each of these so called "proofs" of yours one at a time:

1) The German Army Gold Marksmanship Badge requirements for the MG3 are based on a circular measurement of overall accuracy, and as such it does not tell us anything about vertical dispersion/stringing (relating to muzzle climb), which is infact what we're discussing here. Therefore it is of no use to us in this discussion, and that should be rather obvious.

2) Your low resolution ingame video showing you burst firing the MG34 clearly shows your third shots falling estray. To disprove this you post a picture of a 3 decal grouping on the doorway crown spread over a rather large area. This could have been from seperate bursts, we don't know, also if you pull down your mouse an insane amount (loosing all control of your aim in the process) you can probably get a lucky grouping like that ingame (no'one is disputing that). Problem is however that this doesn't happen on a regular basis, and it is more luck than skill if it does happen.

Those two arguments having been addressed we move on to the next problem facing your claims, which is that in reality you quite simply don't have to combat muzzle climb with an MG like you have to ingame, quite simply because in reality there is very little to no muzzle climb shooting a MG in the prone position. And I know this because not only do I know a lot people who operate MGs on a regular basis, I have also fired plenty of MGs myself, and even better yet (for this discussion atleast) a real MG34 on a couple of occasions.

But that's not all.

You also continue to dispute the results of the practical accuracy video Jippo, refusing to acknowledge that the majority of the 3 shot groupings in that video actually string downwards, not upwards. And effectively all of your claims are dead right there, with no need to go into more detail as to why (we're going to anyway though).

In the practical accuracy video we see the following groupings:


So, where's the muzzle climb you talk about? Short asnwer: Nowhere.

And it's the same story when you look at these guns being fired:
MG-34 shooting and disassembly - YouTube

So why is it we see no indications of muzzle climb in any of these real life videos, just the exact opposite?

Reason is that muzzle climb does not occur when firing a MG like the MG34 in the prone position because there is no moment arm for the recoil to act upon to cause the muzzle to rise; The recoil can't tilt you, and therefore not raise the muzzle of the gun, since your center of gravity is level at ground height. Instead the recoil just travels straight to your shoulder and from there through the entire length of your body. And since the recoil is not strong enough to actually move your body across the ground, it just it ends up just shaking you abit instead.

This is also evident in every video you see of people firing MGs in the prone position as-well.

What you're suggesting should happen just quite simply does not happen, infact it's almost a physical impossibility if you're properly operating a deployed MG in the prone position. For what Jippo is suggesting ever having a chance of happening either the buttstock would actually have to push itself downwards into the ground or the barrel would have to lift itself AND the bipod off the ground = Not gonna happen! (Except in RO2)

There are three things that will happen when you fire a MG however, and it will effect your aim. The first thing is the vibrations that the recoil causes, and second is that the entire gun either lifts or lowers itself abit (on a level plane!) relative to the ground depending on the tilt of the bipod legs. Third is that since you're lying down with your back arching upward, in order to bring your shoulders up to the right height, the push of the recoil will often raise your upper body abit, along with the butt of the gun; lowering your point of aim and making you shoot low. And THAT is what we're seeing in the practical accuracy video as-well most of all the real life MG videos out there.