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MG recoil - TW Please read

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
525
0
Finally:

Jippo, next time before you start feeling sorry for yourself for having to present a single video recording of you shooting the ingame MG34, know this:

It took me a very long time to mark every hit and assign it the proper number on the target picture I just presented in my previous post. I had to check and double check EVERY SINGLE hit in the practical accuracy video to make sure it was accurate. Going through frame by frame to make sure I didn't miss a single shot or incorrectly numbered the successive hits.
 

Jippofin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
183
72
0
Why don't you leave your accusations of "dodging" etc. and go read what I have really said. It seems you have not understood half of it.
 

The_Cook

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 10, 2006
542
177
0
How about The_Cook doesn't care about either of you two's drama. As the MG's go in this game they are accurately represented enough to satisfy my requirements of realism. i.e. perceived accuracy. Does the Cook particularly care as to what direction the muzzle climbs or does not climb? no not really. All The_Cook cares about is if he can lay down accurate fire @ 200meters. my MG skills are about even @ lvl20 for both and so far it seems to get easier and easier to do sustained roflpwn fire into groups of infantry @ 200 meters. 3rnd bursts are hella accurate @ 200 meters. Currently The_Cook could easily and handily get sniper marksman MG3 german badge Moa pwn award.

So in conclusion. MG's are fine as they are. Maybe too accurate idk how it's going to feel @ lvl50, but I have a feeling I'm going to be using lazor cutters by the end of it.

Those that think MG isn't accurate enough are noob and don't know how to fire MG. Practice. Cry less, die moar.
 

Proud_God

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 22, 2005
3,235
548
0
Belgium
Better solution. Throw out all the current RO II MG behavior (and leveling) into the rubbish bin and emulate the MG behavior of Darkest Hour's (not RO I's) MG42...DH's is possibly the best representation of MG behavior. Jippofin, Unus Offa, Unus Nex I urge you both to try out the current DH5.0 MG42.
Having tried DH again to compare, is it really realistic in DH? I mean the lmg's in DH behave like the mounted MGs in RO2, ie, practically 0 recoil. Isn't that a bit too good?
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
525
0
Why don't you leave your accusations of "dodging" etc. and go read what I have really said. It seems you have not understood half of it.
:rolleyes:

You claim that RO2 accurately depicts real life MG characteristics, I think we get that by now Jippo. Problem is you're wrong yet unwilling to admit it, a reoccuring tendency of yours.

In RO2, if you hold down the trigger, unless you stop it, the muzzle of the MG will keep rising until you can't aim any higher. This doesn't happen in reality, and that is all that has ever been stated by myself. You sought to disprove this through claims, insults and conjecture.

I do not wish to make using MGs ingame easier or harder, only that they behave closer to their real life counterparts. The closest we have come to this was in RO:Ost and Darkest Hour, where it wasn't easier shooting the MG accurately, just different. In RO2 we have too much muzzle climb, yet we're missing the immediate drop in point of aim and heavy vibrations of RO:Ost & DH, where you immediately see the MG kicked back into your shoulder and sight vibrating.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
525
0
Also MOA is a circular measurement of accuracy, simply because it ALWAYS refers to a circle of dispersion. It is angular as-well ofcourse, in size relation, in that 10 MOA is not a fixed size, but one that changes with range.
 
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Jippofin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
183
72
0
You are arguing against my personal experience Unus. Based on my personal hands-on experience on firearms and videogames RO2 has the best representation of a bipod mounted machinegun in such a game yet. There isn't anything an unknown net personality like yourself can do to change it. I shoot the MG34 better in game than I do lesser weapons in real life, that is enough with me.

I have written my arguments why I think it is the best representation so far in the posts before this and there is nothing more I can do about it either. You may disagree with my arguments, but then please do at least read them and understand them before arguing. If you insult people in discussion by not listening anything they are saying, you are sooner or later going to get insulted yourself.

For instance this obsession of yours with the muzzle rise is yours only. You will not find me saying that real MG's do so. You will find me saying it is a good compromise, though. Making a game where one "shoots" with a mouse is never going to be realistic.

Also, MOA refers to the angular distance. 1 MOA is 1/60 of a degree(minute of angle?!) and in itself has nothing to do with circles. It is hardly, I quote, "ALWAYS refers to a circle of dispersion" as it is used in many, many other fields of life other than shooting. Even the dispersion of a weapon is just calculated by measuring the distance between the hits furthest apart. Nobody in my neck of woods carries a compass and draws circles in the range.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
525
0
Well atleast we've gone from RO2 depicting MGs realistically to it instead compromising in its' depiction.

Having fired MGs myself though I cannot understand how you find RO2's depiction better than that of RO:Ost or DH, where you actually see the weapon behave more closely to how it behaves in reality. And MG fire wasn't more accurate in RO:Ost or DH either, just different to manage.


Regarding MOA (Silly argument really);

MOA stands for Minutes of Angle, that is no secret, no'one ever said otherwise, however it still provides you with a circular measurement of accuracy, illustrating a particular weapon's cone of fire/dispersion. And it is a circular measurement of accuracy simply because it doesn't distinguish between vertical or horizontal dispersion.

For instance, if a group is 10" wide but 20" tall, then it will be considered a 20 MOA group at 100 yards. And it remains a 20 MOA group even if you turn it around so that the group instead is 20" wide & 10" tall, or both 20" wide & 20" tall.

As such MOA provides us a circular depiction of accuracy, with a 1 MOA rifle being expected to hit within a 1" circle at 100 yards and so forth.
 

Nikita

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2011
1,874
606
0
You are arguing against my personal experience Unus. Based on my personal hands-on experience on firearms and videogames RO2 has the best representation of a bipod mounted machinegun in such a game yet. There isn't anything an unknown net personality like yourself can do to change it. I shoot the MG34 better in game than I do lesser weapons in real life, that is enough with me.

For instance this obsession of yours with the muzzle rise is yours only. You will not find me saying that real MG's do so. You will find me saying it is a good compromise, though. Making a game where one "shoots" with a mouse is never going to be realistic.
Forgive me, as I have absolutely zero experience with firing light machine guns, though I am more than competent with mechanics-based physics...

...but I just can't see how the barrel of a bipod-mounted machine gun manages to rise during extended firing. I mean, from a physics point of view, how can the force generated by the ignition of the propellant inside the casing of the bullet within the machine gun chamber cause it to exert a net groundwards vertical force on the back of the weapon when the buttstock is presumably couched against the shooter's shoulder? I'm assuming of course that it's not the barrel rising into the air, somehow levitating the bipod with the force of firing... :confused:
 

Frostedfire

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2010
1,055
153
0
oz
quick recap - people are arguing that you can't just hold m1 and drag across the screen to kill everyone like in DH?
 

Jippofin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
183
72
0
...but I just can't see how the barrel of a bipod-mounted machine gun manages to rise during extended firing. I mean, from a physics point of view, how can the force generated by the ignition of the propellant inside the casing of the bullet within the machine gun chamber cause it to exert a net groundwards vertical force on the back of the weapon when the buttstock is presumably couched against the shooter's shoulder? I'm assuming of course that it's not the barrel rising into the air, somehow levitating the bipod with the force of firing... :confused:
I don't mean to be rude, but I have to say we had that covered in the page one of this thread.

Basic answer is that gun is not rising, but turning and the camera (eye) in the 3d environment is slaved to the gun. You might want to look at the DP pictures I posted on the first page and think what kind of film one would have if a camera was fixed to the DP sights in solid fashion.
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
525
0
In real life the muzzle of the MG will not rise any appreciable amount when firing from the prone position, infact it has a tendency to go down sometimes. As such inexperienced MGers will tend to shoot low or wide of the target.

Also keeping the gun on target during long bursts becomes hard simply because of the vibrations of the gun, not because you have to combat any muzzle rise. This was most accurately replicated in RO:Ost & DH.
 

Jippofin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
183
72
0
In real life the muzzle of the MG will not rise any appreciable amount when firing from the prone position, infact it has a tendency to go down sometimes. As such inexperienced MGers will tend to shoot low or wide of the target.

Also keeping the gun on target during long bursts becomes hard simply because of the vibrations of the gun, not because you have to combat any muzzle rise. This was most accurately replicated in RO:Ost & DH.
If you don't know, don't talk, listen.
 

Nikita

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2011
1,874
606
0
Now I don't mean to be rude, but your pictures on the first page of this thread were far from conclusive.

Problem is that the "torsion" (torque) effect you're talking about has an absolute minimal effect whilst firing a MG from the prone position. Why? Because the recoil has no moment arm to act upon in order to make you tilt backwards like when shooting from a standing or crouching position, which is what causes muzzle climb.

Interestingly they got this almost completely right in RO1, where when firing the MG42 for example you'd see the recoil kick the gun back into your shoulder and the sight picture vibrate abit, however there would be very little if any muzzle climb.
Plenty of detailed, sensible logic here--and I agree. The MG42 felt great in Ostfront. Look Jippofin--it STILL took skill to compensate for the recoil in that game. The skill was just applied differently. I'm a perfectly capable machine gunner in RO2 myself, and having wrestled plenty with the PPSh in Ostfront controlling recoil is no problem for me. I can deal with any recoil, exaggerated or none. The exaggerated recoil, however, just feels unrealistic.

And lay off on this: "If you don't know, don't talk--listen", "You are behaving like a child who has been caught lying", "Lying, lying, lying...", "I wouldn't dig the hole any deeper if I were you", "You are lying again," "You really cannot be trusted", "You really can't be that stupid, can you?"
You're not impressing anyone with that kind of talk.
 
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Jippofin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 15, 2011
183
72
0
Now I don't mean to be rude, but your pictures on the first page of this thread were far from conclusive.
Are you talking about the ones with the lines drawn on them? It really doesn't come any more conclusive than that IMHO.


Plenty of detailed, sensible logic here--and I agree. The MG42 felt great in Ostfront. Look Jippofin--it STILL took skill to compensate for the recoil in that game. The skill was just applied differently. I'm a perfectly capable machine gunner in RO2 myself, and having wrestled plenty with the PPSh in Ostfront controlling recoil is no problem for me. I can deal with any recoil, exaggerated or none. The exaggerated recoil, however, just feels unrealistic.
It is just a matter of personal preference. I can appreciate your view of it, too.

And lay off on this: "If you don't know, don't talk--listen", ...
I'm not going to comment the latter part because that is something I already apologised for. But for the comment above, I see nothing wrong. The fellow already said he was very inexperienced himself, and in that situation it is not very good idea to make any sweeping generalisations. It is far better to ask questions and listen to those that have more experience. I think that is a good advice for all of us.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
1,809
525
0
I'm not going to comment the latter part because that is something I already apologised for. But for the comment above, I see nothing wrong. The fellow already said he was very inexperienced himself, and in that situation it is not very good idea to make any sweeping generalisations. It is far better to ask questions and listen to those that have more experience. I think that is a good advice for all of us.
You really need to learn to admit when you are wrong Jippo, being this stubborn when you are clearly wrong is of no good.

This discussion has turned out just like in the one about the D-T 15 doppel trommel where again you clearly hadn't the slightest clue what you were talking about.