MG recoil - TW Please read

[Jippofin]

You don't understand Jippo, I've tried it a lot of times, infact I try everytime I use the thing, and it just aint possible.

So it doesn't surprise me that you can't prove it.

Ok, I spent an hour figuring out how to make a video from a game. I used Fraps torecord the video and movie editing tool to make it small enough to upload. And I can tell you that wasn't much fun...

Here is the video:


Here is what I said:

I can keep my shots 95% on the area between the center piece and top of the copper arc. That is about what I can do in the real life (less than torso size).

You should see from the video that all rounds hit the centerpiece and the spread of the rounds is actually quite a bit less than my initial claim with most rounds hitting within lower half of the copper arc. In fact in German army would be getting a Golden Sch

 

[Cwivey]

Doesn't that Video prove Single shot / Two-Burst accuracy rather than the large burst / full auto fire the other chap was on about?
Everyone can fire single shots with high accuracy, most with even two or three shots, but after that, it climbs high and you can go off target very fast.

 

[Tak]

But short bursts is how you use an LMG effectively. Uninterupted fire is for heavy mounted guns.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Ok, I spent an hour figuring out how to make a video from a game. I used Fraps torecord the video and movie editing tool to make it small enough to upload. And I can tell you that wasn't much fun...

Here is the video:


Here is what I said:


You should see from the video that all rounds hit the centerpiece and the spread of the rounds is actually quite a bit less than my initial claim with most rounds hitting within lower half of the copper arc. In fact in German army would be getting a Golden Sch

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

M-60 Light Machinegun Gunner's View - YouTube

M-249 Para POV - YouTube

Where's all that muzzle climb we see ingame? Nowhere, it just doesn't happen.


MG34 - YouTube

MG-34 shooting and disassembly - YouTube

Girl firing with mg-34 part 2 - YouTube

WW2 German Machine Gun MG34 Maschinen Gewehr in action - firing full auto - YouTube

 

[Jippofin]

I am really starting to loose my temper with you now.

Try to decide what you want. First you say that it is impossible to do something and ask for proof.

I provide you the proof that it is not only possible but even easy to do even better.

You revert your opinion 180 degrees and now claim something completely different.


You are behaving like a child who has been caught lying. Explanation after another. I have had it with you. You are not capable of reasonable discussion. Shameful on your part.

I on the other hand have wasted enough with my time with you, and I will not repeat that mistake. Apology for that would be in place, if you ask me. Otherwise I am done with you.


Ps. And what are you going to prove with a youtube video of a machinegun firing. Part of what I do is to teach people how to ****ing shoot them, for christs sakes.....


Pps. Have a look at the size of the target. Most of the rounds were hitting within a half torso. (that is ****ing A for a machinegun!)

And unlike in your reference video, the shooting distance in Spartanovka was not 90 meters, but about 150meters, a good 60 meters more than in comparison video.

 

[Spacehogking]

It's all back-asswards. You can hipfire dudes with astounding accuracy, yet the set-up MG has a ridiculous recoil. The MGs should be just as strong, or just slightly weaker than the mounted MGs. This may sound too powerful, but keep in mind that the MGs won't have the same round capacity. As it stands right now, you're better off using a Rifle than an MG, which is truly bizarre. I see rounds where the MG isn't even taken because it's clumsy, dangerous to use, and underpowered.

Recoil needs to be cut in half or more.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

I am really starting to loose my temper with you now.

Try to decide what you want. First you say that it is impossible to do something and ask for proof.

I provide you the proof that it is not only possible but even easy to do even better.

No you didn't Jippo, it is quite clear from watching your video that you could not reproduce the performance of the guys in the practical accuracy video, which was to have a 3-4 round burst hit within a chest sized target at 100 m.

Produce a video where you replicate the performance of the chaps in the practical accuracy video and then you can rightly claim that you have proven me wrong, otherwise my point still stands = The MG's ingame feature excessive amounts of muzzle climb in the prone position as compared to their real life counterparts.

You revert your opinion 180 degrees and now claim something completely different.

Really ? Well let's see what I wrote:

"I mostly use the MG so I am quite aware of how it works. And at 100 meters ingame you will not be able to produce groups with as little vertical dispersion as in the video above, I've tried, many times. You can probably approach it with a lot of effort, but it takes way too much effort to keep the sights from rising, whilst in reality muzzle rise is almost non-existant with MGs in the prone position.

If you claim you can do better ingame than the guys in the video, then by all means prove it."

So I guess in your mind calling you out on your claims is the same as reverting ones opinion then? Interesting...

You are behaving like a child who has been caught lying. Explanation after another. I have had it with you. You are not capable of reasonable discussion. Shameful on your part.

That's funny, cause that's how I feel about you right now.

I on the other hand have wasted enough with my time with you, and I will not repeat that mistake. Apology for that would be in place, if you ask me. Otherwise I am done with you.

Oh we're done.

Ps. And what are you going to prove with a youtube video of a machinegun firing. Part of what I do is to teach people how to ****ing shoot them, for christs sakes.....

Really? Considering the things you've written here I find that hard to believe.

Pps. Have a look at the size of the target. Most of the rounds were hitting within a half torso. (that is ****ing A for a machinegun!)

That's not what I saw, I saw the first two bullets group fairly tight (still not chest sized) whilst the third went estray. If you had kept to the scenario we were discussing, which was the muzzle climb during full automatic fire (which entails more than just a couple of 2 round bursts btw), then your video would've showcased what is so wrong with MGs ingame atm.

Instead however you tried to hide the insane muzzle climb experienced during full automatic fire ingame by limiting yourself to 2 round bursts.

 

[Jippofin]

When talking about shooting what we measure is hits on target. That is in all shooting sports and qualifying test I know. We do not compete on how long we can keep the trigger down, we strive to get most hits on target. You are asking me to use tool incorrectly.

The guys in the video are not hitting the torso because they have a poor trigger control. Poor trigger control is poor skill resulting them to miss and skilled people fire two to three round bursts because that is how you get the best accuracy. That is how we train our gunners. I shoot better already because I know how to shoot, funny but that is how it goes.
And that is the point of reference I have on MG accuracy: we shoot 150m 2-3 bursts and I shoot better in game than I do in real life.


Never mind that there are several 3 round bursts in the video I posted.

Attachment is orginal high resolution video enlarged 3 times. You will see remains of the first hit straight on the round centerpiece that I used as a aiming point, second up and right of it, and the third as a smaller dot below the second hit. (example taken 14s into the video) What is your excuse for not accepting my results this time?

 

[Roland777]

Jippo, you are the one in the wrong here.

 

[Jippofin]

There is one easy way to prove me wrong. Somebody takes mg-34 , shoots better group than I have to show controllable the gun is.Mr Unus here has boasted here that on how easy that is and he has access to one, so he is the no.1 candidate on that.The thing here is that knowing the qualifying standards for few countries I already managed to shoot very good result in the game, that means it is going to be very hard to prove mg's in game are somehow more difficult to shoot than in real life.

 

[Tak]

Is there a way to increase the decal-stay for the bullet holes?

I tried to do some shoots and I couldn't ever actually check where my bullets went because by the time I got close to them they'd long faded away.

mg.avi - YouTube

I tried some shooting. It got away from me during the second drum but I think the first one and the opening and closing of the second drum were sufficiently man-shooty to be deadly.

My MG is level two I think, so that probably has to be taken into consideration. Also, can we please get rid of the leveling-up of weapons now? See how hard this makes discussion about weapons?!

I have a problem going by youtube video as a basis for comparison. A handy cam just can't film fast enough to catch all the movement a gun makes, much less all the kinetic energy getting kicked around when a machine gun fires.

For some reason all the love is to the MG42. I can't find an MG34 slow-mo video.

This gentleman never goes past about four or five rounds, but there's still a lot of wiggle in that gun. WWII German Machine Gun (MG42) firing in slow motion (Casio EX-F1) - YouTube

There are several videos of the 42 on a tripod mount, and it's still enough to make the gun dance when not properly braced (like the rear feet resting naked on concrete in one video, doh). Just youtube search MG 34 slo mo, MG 34 slow motion, or any variation. Be prepared for lots of bad soundtracks though.

Personally? I think the MG works fine, and I don't think recoil is overstated. My only wish is to be able to lower my head even further, forgoing the use of the iron sights completely (and going by tracer/impacts for adjustment) in exchange for better cover.

If anyone has one of those high speed cameras and an MG34, I'll pitch in for ammo and we can put this to rest the right way!

 

[The_Cook]

Mg's are fine as they are. if you're not destroying the other team you're doing it wrong. Russian Mg @ 180m from windows at 1st spawn on apartments, you've got a beautiful killzone that looks down the road from german spawn to the house. if you aren't top 3 on any game with MG.

1.) you prolly didn't find a good spot
2.) don't know how to shoot and need practice.

Blame the operator before you blame the machine.

 

[Golf33]

I think there is something in the ini file that sets decal stay time. I'd tell you what it is but having trouble finding it in the search now :-(

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

It's funny that you keep posting pictures of what we've already seen Jippo = that you were unable to even approach the accuracy of the guys in the practical accuracy video. Firing 3-4 round bursts the were able to place all their rounds within a chest sized area at 100 meters, something that is simply impossible to achieve in RO2. Your video only goes to demonstrate the excessive muzzle climb present ingame, even when only firing 2 round bursts, and at the few times that you let off 3 rounds your accuracy went completely to ****, the third round going way estray.

Also if you had cared to pay notice to how the rounds stringed in the real life practical accuracy video you would've noticed that the string of hits either stayed at the same height, most of the spread being to either side, or they actually stringed downward from the first impact = the exact opposite of muzzle climb!

Having fired MGs several times before myself I confirm this is what happens, also when I fired the MG34 years back. There quite simply is very little if any muzzle climb, esp. efter the initial recoil from the first two rounds have been overcome and you have the gun under full control.

Also stop argueing about how you achieve the best accuracy with a MG, we've not even begun to discuss that subject, what are discussing is how much vertical spread MGs exhibit during full automatic fire, be it during 0.5 sec bursts or prolonged 2-3 sec bursts; and as evident in reality the verticl spread is very little.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

There is one easy way to prove me wrong. Somebody takes mg-34 , shoots better group than I have to show controllable the gun is.Mr Unus here has boasted here that on how easy that is and he has access to one, so he is the no.1 candidate on that.The thing here is that knowing the qualifying standards for few countries I already managed to shoot very good result in the game, that means it is going to be very hard to prove mg's in game are somehow more difficult to shoot than in real life.

So now I have access to an MG34 ? Sure, if I choose to visit a friend in another country and ask wether I could get to shoot his MG34(s) again. Yeah, just give me a sec and I'll pack my bags so I can travel to another country just to prove someone wrong on an internet forum

 

[Jippofin]

It's funny that you keep posting pictures of what we've already seen Jippo = that you were unable to even approach the accuracy of the guys in the practical accuracy video. Firing 3-4 round bursts the were able to place all their rounds within a chest sized area at 100 meters, something that is simply impossible to achieve in RO2.

If you weren't lying about the contents of the video you would say that from 90 meters they were hitting the backstop with most (but not all) of their rounds. And that they hit the targets chest with few rounds with others missing the paper completely and many hitting the paper on it's white parts. Isn't it so:

Your video only goes to demonstrate the excessive muzzle climb present ingame, even when only firing 2 round bursts, and at the few times that you let off 3 rounds your accuracy went completely to ****, the third round going way estray.

If you wouldn't be lying about the contents of my video you woul probably say that 100% of the rounds hit the torso with most of them grouping within 50cm circle, in other words: all of them being deadly if I were shooting at an enemy. And even better I was shooting more than one and a half times the distance compared to the youtube guys. Hitting does get trickier with increasing distance, doesn' it?

And as I kindly pointed out in the picture I posted regarding your previous false comments, I did indeed manage to shoot many accurate three round bursts. In the image we had three very solid chest hits within one burst (and no unmanageable tendency for the gun to twist up as the 3rd round is indeed lower than the second). May I present it to you again, this time with crayon so you might get the gist:

Also if you had cared to pay notice to how the rounds stringed in the real life practical accuracy video you would've noticed that the string of hits either stayed at the same height, most of the spread being to either side, or they actually stringed downward from the first impact = the exact opposite of muzzle climb!

I explained this issue to you first time in the post #22 of the thread. You might have the courtesy of not repeating the same issues:
<a href="http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=955530&postcount=22" target="_blank">http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=955530&postcount=22

Having fired MGs several times before myself...

Quoting you on this one:
"Really? Considering the things you've written here I find that hard to believe."

Would you mind sharing us some actual results instead of empty words then. You see, you are not really bringing anything to the table here, are you?

So now I have access to an MG34 ? Sure, if I choose to visit a friend in another country and ask wether I could get to shoot his MG34(s) again. Yeah, just give me a sec and I'll pack my bags so I can travel to another country just to prove someone wrong on an internet forum

Other alternative would be a reliable source of information on the accuracy, like German qualifying test accompanied with gunner success rates.

If you claim something, you should be able to back up your words. It would be interesting to see you present some solid facts about issue instead of just demanding evidence from others.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

If you weren't lying about the contents of the video you would say that from 90 meters they were hitting the backstop with most (but not all) of their rounds. And that they hit the targets chest with few rounds with others missing the paper completely and many hitting the paper on it's white parts. Isn't it so:

Your skill at selective reading and obversation is astounding.

First of all I said that all rounds were placed within chest sized area Jippo, not that all rounds in the video hit within the chest region of the human silhouette target in the video. Because once more we're looking at group size and not the placement of the groups.

Looking through the video you will discover that nearly every group is small in size (esp. after the first few familiarization firings), and most of the spread is to the sides (Yep, the rounds that go estray are the ones that go wide, funny you forget to mention that ), with very little vertical spread going on.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

The problem we have ingame atm is not the accuracy of the machine guns themselves, they hit where they are pointed, just as they should. No the problem is the amount of muzzle climb that the ingame machineguns exhibit when firing more than 2 rounds at a time, it's as if the buttstock gets hammered into the ground; it just doesn't happen in real life.

In reality, assuming that the operator is familiar with the weapon and has zeroed himself in, most of the rounds fired at a human sized target at 100 yards with a MG in the prone position will end up at the same height level as the target (the string of hits usually stretching from bottom of waist to the top of the chest), and most of the rounds that miss will be ones that go wide.

Take a look at the practical accuracy video:

At 2:37 min the BAR shoots this 3 round group, notice how the rounds string downwards, each round hitting lower than the other and drifting to the left:



Now ofcourse they were still familiarizing themselves with the weapons at that point, but here's a couple of their groupings after some practice (From 3:47 min to 4:01 min):

[Two 2 round groups, and four 3 round groups]


Achieving successive groupings this tight ingame at 100 meters with the MG34 is impossible.

 

[Golf33]

Are there some different expectations here about what the game user should have to do (through the mouse input) vs what the game avatar should 'know' to do (without mouse input)?

As an example, take adopting a correct firing position (e.g. "position and hold should point the weapon naturally at the target without undue effort on the part of the firer"). In real life this is a skill that has to be trained and often requires some effort to achieve, e.g.in awkward or tight spaces. In the game you don't have to do any of this work as your avatar does it for you the moment you click the iron sight button. In some cases the game even does a but too much, for example when coming off a sprint to aim at a target at right-angles to the direction of movement.

In other cases, perhaps what people are arguing is that the game doesn't do enough of the work. If the avatar controlled for recoil the same way that it controls for correct position and hold, then all you'd need to do is put the ironsight on a target at 80m and squeeze off 3 rounds without moving the mouse at all. Your avatar would control the recoil such that the burst landed within the sort of spread seen in the practical accuracy video (plus or minus a bit depending on how MG34 handles compared to Ben and BAR which have much lower rates of fire and different ergonomics).

Is that what people are after here, or are you looking for something different?