Will snipers/marksmen get camo coats and wrapped rifles?

[LionbI4]

Cpt-Praxius,
You are trying to protect your false sentence, that person can't be a sniper without a scope.
If you now agree, that someone can be a sniper without a scope - say it.
Stop your demagogic arguments like "the exception proves the rule".

What most people agree with, that in RO Sniper is a more designated marksman, than "real" sniper.
I think most agree with wikipedia description of designated marksman

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Cpt-Praxius,
You are trying to protect your false sentence, that person can't be a sniper without a scope.
If you now agree, that someone can be a sniper without a scope - say it.
Stop your demagogic arguments like "the exception proves the rule".

Ok, how's this.... I don't believe anybody who fires a weapon without a scope is a sniper, but a sharpshooter. This is correct because depending on which country you look at, depending on who's history you follow, this would be correct, since the term "Sniper" holds more then one meaning.

Example...... and a decent one this time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

Just looking through the long list of various descriptions from one country to the other, there is no one solid definition for what a sniper is, besides someone who tries to hide when they fight.... which as already said countless times by not just me, but others in this thread as well.... that this definition is already met in game by my own actions in-game, as well as anybody else who plays the same way.

When I am sniper class, I hide, I stay out of the normal angle of fighting, I shoot at long distances, I will stay in one spot for as long as it serves "my" objectives and then relocate when necessary.

Based on all of this, I already fit your requirements for a sniper in the game, thus the class title suits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksman
^ Now with Marksman, even what they describe here, compared to what you are describing a Marksman as isn't absolute either:

"The main difference between a marksman and a sniper is that a marksman is usually considered an organic part of a team of soldiers, whereas snipers tend to work solitarily or with other snipers."

^ Usually, not always.

And depending on how a player plays in the game RO, determines what they are, not by your limited understanding of playing the game.

Just because you play a certain way, doesn't mean everybody else plays as you do, nor should they.

What most people agree with, that in RO Sniper is a more designated marksman, than "real" sniper.
I think most agree with wikipedia description of designated marksman

Ah, so now we switch from just a "Marksman" to now using "Designated Marksman"

Stick to one or the other, otherwise your argument is fractal.

And what "Most People Agree with" in regards to RO?

I see two... maybe three people in her arguing for Marksman over Sniper.

You're still wrong when it comes to the game, because it's not actually the game that tells us what the class is (Besides telling us it's a Sniper in class selection) It is the Player and how they play which determines this.

And yet while I address just about everything you say or focus on, you continually avoid this fact of the player and keep rolling back to irrelevant points that still don't matter to the actual discussion.

There are all sorts of meanings for Marksman, Sniper, Sharpshooter, Counter-Sniper, Precision Marksman, Tactical Marksman, Precision Riflemen, Precision Shooter, etc etc.

Thus, pretty subjective based on the tactics used..... which has been the same thing I have already been saying for the last couple of pages.

For me personally (not including tactics since that should have been a given a long time ago) the most effective sniper is one who uses a scope..... anything else I would consider a sharpshooter, which as I have already provided a definition for:

"The second military grade of proficiency in the use of rifles and other small arms."

"an expert marksman, esp with a rifle"

Which means a Marksman or Sharpshooter could be anybody that has good aim, such as a good rifleman, or someone who can pick off someone at a distance with an MP40, etc..... this is why I conclude that a Sniper (in most cases) usually requires a scope to set some sort of difference, besides obvious tactics which have not been in dispute in the first place.

If that clarifies anything.

 

[LemoN]

It's quite simple in my opinnion. RO focuses on small company sized battles wich is reflected by the reinforcements (and also has been stated by the devs numerous times). So basically all soldiers qich are part of thise battle are part of a squad in that company. Since Snipers usually (nearly allways) operate outside the boundaries of a squad the soldiers with a scoped rifle in RO are by definition Marksmen with a scoped rifle attached to a squad. Of course you can also play a real sniper in RO but this would require the map to be made in a specific way wich doesnt exist yet afaik.

This discusion is simply pointless as it doesn't matter how you "play" your role ingame. Only thing that counts is how the map is set up (ie company vs company ect).

Also playing "like" a sniper is only possible in games like OFP or ArmA, it simply is not possible in RO due to the fact that there are too many ppl going on and a sniper would never ever advance with a squad or fight right alongside it. Snipers are simply snipers. Go in unnoticed -> shoot -> escape. In ro he just advances and also caps points, defends positions ect.


A VW Golf doesn't become a Formula 1 car just because you drive it like one.

 

[LogisticEarth]

When I am sniper class, I hide, I stay out of the normal angle of fighting, I shoot at long distances, I will stay in one spot for as long as it serves "my" objectives and then relocate when necessary.

Are you objectives usually something that will help the advancing platoon? Are you responding to requests from your team for precision fire support? That is, as I said before, providing overwatch, taking out enemy MGs or well entrenched infantry, or locking down a particular part of the battlefield? If so, then you're not operating as a sniper, you're operating as a squad/platoon's marksman. If you're not doing any of these things, and advancing your team's cause by providing precision fire or cover, then you're just screwing off and wasting your team's assets.

 

[213]

if it's going to be just a glorified rifleman, then take away the scope and sniper gear.

the game is not squad based, it's class based. the simulation of reinforcement suggests that it is a raging battle, members of one team are not necessarily part of a squad. this is especially true in combined arm type maps.

and you're looking at this feature from the perspective of post ww2 developments. if the marksman class is just going to be the "good shot" on the team, why even differentiate it from the rifleman class?

it's a sniper, guys. he has a scoped rifle, his role is specialized and if he's smart he's not going to run with his team into close quarters combat, he's going to kill enemies from a safe distance(even arcade games allow this kind of gameplay, how will it not be possible in ro2?).

 

[Zetsumei]

Who said he should run into close quarters combat thats not the job of a marksman either thats the job of assault soldiers. The job of a marksman is to kill the mgs from a safe distance.

But in the case of this thread the termology doesn't even matter, you are fighting with a squad (atleast you spawn with a squad), and in that case generally you carry thesame uniform wether you are just a normal soldier awarded with a scoped rifle or a trained sniper.

Why should the scope be taken away, there is a reason why its handy to have scoped soldiers in a squad. Its so he can get rid of pesky riflemen, mgs and whatever beyond regular range. So in that sense not much should change from ro. If there is a realistic usage for scoped weaponry, i rather see that utilized than a more unrealistic employment, some camo is nice but that should be equally possible for other soldiers.

 

[LogisticEarth]

I think people are misconstruing the meaning of the phrase "work with the rest of your platoon". Teamwork doesn't only include running behind people and assisting them close up, it also includes trying to work as a co-ordinated unit across sometimes large distances.

 

[Flogger23m]

Ok, how's this.... I don't believe anybody who fires a weapon without a scope is a sniper, but a sharpshooter.

A sniper is a rank or position. A sniper is soldier who gets special training, both in shooting and tactics as well as other things.

This is the main difference between a designated marksmen. A DM is your average soldier, who is just issued a slightly more accurate rifle than your average soldier. Example: In the USMC, they are issued slightly more accurate versions of the M16 with a better scope. In WWII/RO, this would mean a scoped K98K or Mosin.

A sniper can use an assault rifle with iron sights. They're still a sniper. A sniper can use an SMG. They're still a sniper.

Likewise, a downed pilot can pick up a sniper's scoped rifle. Just because he has a scoped rifle does not mean he is a sniper. In fact, he'll likely he less skilled in shooting compared to your average riflemen.

We can take a more modern example, such as Black Hawk Down (the book). Two of the Delta force "snipers" were not using accurate scoped rifles. But they were still referred to as "snipers" in the book, as well as many other articles and documentaries.

From everything I have read, this stays true for all countries. Or at least the vast majority of them.

Considering there are not sniper like objectives or many maps large enough for sniper combat, it does not make sense for them to be "snipers".

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Are you objectives usually something that will help the advancing platoon?

Any kills I make that take their reinforcements down more helps my side of the war.

Are you responding to requests from your team for precision fire support?

Nope, because they normally never ask for it and if they do, usually I'm on the other side of the map and by the time I did get to where they wanted me, it'd be too late, thus I don't bother.

That is, as I said before, providing overwatch, taking out enemy MGs or well entrenched infantry, or locking down a particular part of the battlefield? If so, then you're not operating as a sniper, you're operating as a squad/platoon's marksman.

And yet didn't someone earlier say that doing this and taking out key targets was what snipers do?

Like I said, the terms are subjective and everytime someone on here tries to argue Sniper or Marksman, they continually interchange what each do, or they use definitions of something totally different to somehow justify their position, when they completely forget they used the same definitions to justify the totally opposite earlier.....

case in point:

Flogger23m - "A sniper would sit still for hours, waiting to take a few shots and kills against important targets."

What you listed above sounds like important targets to me.

As another example:

Nimsky - "Even if you sit in one spot sniping d00ds for an entire round, you're still technically playing as a designated marksman. Not a sniper."

So how about you guys sit down and have a little pow wow to get your sh*t straight before you start ranting on about what a marksman and a sniper is, since you guys seem to love interchanging meanings and tactics to whatever suits your argument of the moment.

If you're not doing any of these things, and advancing your team's cause by providing precision fire or cover, then you're just screwing off and wasting your team's assets.

So just like how every other person in every other class is screwing off and wasting teams' resources?

If nobody asks for help or to take something out, then I play the game on my own, as I damn well please, since that's all that everybody else is doing. Rarely I see anybody take commander class and use it right..... rarely do I ever see people playing the sniper class as you dictate they should, rarely do I even see riflemen doing what they're supposed to be doing, and usually just stay behind at spawn and sharpshoot people off in the distance because they're too chicken sh*t to advance.

So don't come all up in here preaching about how one should be playing the game, because clearly nobody is listening to you in-game and everybody seems to be playing for themselves, rarely ever listening to commands to defend or cap an objective......

basically with a few exceptions, all anybody does in RO at present (Tanks, and Soldiers alike) is that they pick out their favorite spot on the map and then just camp there killing things off in the distance as they pop their heads out..... Arad is a prime example of this.

Don't hate the playa.... hate the game.

if it's going to be just a glorified rifleman, then take away the scope and sniper gear.

the game is not squad based, it's class based. the simulation of reinforcement suggests that it is a raging battle, members of one team are not necessarily part of a squad. this is especially true in combined arm type maps.

and you're looking at this feature from the perspective of post ww2 developments. if the marksman class is just going to be the "good shot" on the team, why even differentiate it from the rifleman class?

it's a sniper, guys. he has a scoped rifle, his role is specialized and if he's smart he's not going to run with his team into close quarters combat, he's going to kill enemies from a safe distance(even arcade games allow this kind of gameplay, how will it not be possible in ro2?).

That's how I see it.... in RO, it's not supposed to represent the exact same 16 or so soldiers coming back to life to fight again, you're technically supposed to be more soldiers coming to the battlefield.... thus there is no ties to one particular squad or team... you're all Germans.... or you're all Russians..... Side A and Side B.

There is no parameter in the game at present that allows people to assign squads like there is in say, BF2..... thus whoever wants to form up a squad or follow a bunch of people are doing so at their own discretion.

Don't like it? Then change the way the game plays.

 

[[5GTA] Juan]

If we point that RO is an historic game, in both Nazi Germany and CCCP snipers acted as "snipers", I mean, working alone or alongside a supporter with binoculars and a PPSh to give close cover, and hunting "sensible objectives" such as officials, radio operators, MGs...
They could be alone and out of base for days and worked away of the main front, a lot of times behind enemy lines.
The use of scope is not necessary, and a lot of them used a lot of times normal sights, that with the PU sight ac still be used, unlike modern scopes. Simo Hayna, finnish, achieved 542 kills with a non scoped Mosin...
The concept of "Marksman" moving with the squad to give medium distance cover, was only later introduced in the Soviet Army, and they even made a rifle for them (the Dragunov) while snipers keeped their venerable Mosin-derived bolt action rifles until the KSVK appeared in the 90s...

 

[iTRemeN]

The german army didnt train any snipers after ww1. They didnt have any snipers until 1943, when they learned from the Soviet union. Altough they did have riflemen equipped with scoped rifles, or "Marksmen".

 

[LemoN]

The german army didnt train any snipers after ww1. They didnt have any snipers until 1943, when they learned from the Soviet union. Altough they did have riflemen equipped with scoped rifles, or "Marksmen".

Source?
Just curious as it sounds pretty believeable.

 

[Matt Baker]

Any kills I make that take their reinforcements down more helps my side of the war.



Nope, because they normally never ask for it and if they do, usually I'm on the other side of the map and by the time I did get to where they wanted me, it'd be too late, thus I don't bother.


And yet didn't someone earlier say that doing this and taking out key targets was what snipers do?

Like I said, the terms are subjective and everytime someone on here tries to argue Sniper or Marksman, they continually interchange what each do, or they use definitions of something totally different to somehow justify their position, when they completely forget they used the same definitions to justify the totally opposite earlier.....

case in point:

Flogger23m - "A sniper would sit still for hours, waiting to take a few shots and kills against important targets."

What you listed above sounds like important targets to me.

As another example:

Nimsky - "Even if you sit in one spot sniping d00ds for an entire round, you're still technically playing as a designated marksman. Not a sniper."

So how about you guys sit down and have a little pow wow to get your sh*t straight before you start ranting on about what a marksman and a sniper is, since you guys seem to love interchanging meanings and tactics to whatever suits your argument of the moment.



So just like how every other person in every other class is screwing off and wasting teams' resources?

If nobody asks for help or to take something out, then I play the game on my own, as I damn well please, since that's all that everybody else is doing. Rarely I see anybody take commander class and use it right..... rarely do I ever see people playing the sniper class as you dictate they should, rarely do I even see riflemen doing what they're supposed to be doing, and usually just stay behind at spawn and sharpshoot people off in the distance because they're too chicken sh*t to advance.

So don't come all up in here preaching about how one should be playing the game, because clearly nobody is listening to you in-game and everybody seems to be playing for themselves, rarely ever listening to commands to defend or cap an objective......

basically with a few exceptions, all anybody does in RO at present (Tanks, and Soldiers alike) is that they pick out their favorite spot on the map and then just camp there killing things off in the distance as they pop their heads out..... Arad is a prime example of this.

Don't hate the playa.... hate the game.






That's how I see it.... in RO, it's not supposed to represent the exact same 16 or so soldiers coming back to life to fight again, you're technically supposed to be more soldiers coming to the battlefield.... thus there is no ties to one particular squad or team... you're all Germans.... or you're all Russians..... Side A and Side B.

There is no parameter in the game at present that allows people to assign squads like there is in say, BF2..... thus whoever wants to form up a squad or follow a bunch of people are doing so at their own discretion.

Don't like it? Then change the way the game plays.

Today i just played as sniper at Foy in DH. I choose the g43 with scope. i shot and shot, died about 5 times that round. At the end of the round I had 86 kills. (the round took standard 25 min i think 20/25min)




to tell the trough I wasn’t really sniping, I was simply put a hole in every enemy I saw with better accuracy, than most. The g43 isn’t very accurate over 100 meters away I would never use it to engage enemies. But fewer than 100 meters. Its Mass murder, crowd control. But with a scoped blot action rifle is it 100% accurate, the only thing to worry about is bullet drop. With a scoped blot rifle i would say that you where a sniper. if you had a scoped g43 i would say you where a sharpshooter or designated marksman. With the scoped bolt rifle you can hit a mm at 150m, with no problem. With a scoped semi its, horrible you scream in agony because you can’t hit him.


so basically i would say
-a person who spawns, scoped semi automatic rifles is a sharpshooter.
- a person who spawns with a scoped blot rifle is a sniper.



Guys if you think there will be a real sniper in RO :HOS you are pretty dumb. they will most likely keep the same sniper system as in RO: OST. its too much work... and you guys say my ideas are dumb ( some of you)

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Today i just played as sniper at Foy in DH. I choose the g43 with scope. i shot and shot, died about 5 times that round. At the end of the round I had 86 kills. (the round took standard 25 min i think 20/25min)

to tell the trough I wasn

 

[Matt Baker]

I can't say I ever called anybody's ideas dumb.... I may say I don't agree or that there are faults, maybe even silly, but not dumb.... of course unless it's something really, and I mean really dumb.

But your above assessment I would agree with.

I have noticed the difference between the semis and bolts.... as well as exactly how far the bullets go before dropping. I've heard a lot of people say that the map's arn't big enough for "Snipers" yet if the map is large enough for you to have to be concerned about bullet drop... I'd say they're large enough.

Maybe that should be what happens in the future.... that is if there is any change going to happen to the class..... have two classes, snipers with bolts, good scopes, spawn elsewhere other then where the rest of the team spawns and proper uniforms..... and have Marksman/Sharpshooters looking much as the sniper class does already, have them use semis, less powerful scopes (don't see as far as snipers would, thus better at closer ranges) and spawn with the team as what currently happens.

then everybody is happy

Hooray for Zoidberg

Currently there are different scopes for the semi auto rifles and the bolt rifles.

The semi auto rifles have 3x i would say.

And blot rifles have 4x. but i have no problem if it was adjustable from 4x to 6x.
And having two classes is smart think i posted this somewhere else no matter.
Small maps Sharpshooter.
Medium maps Sniper can choose between the semi and blot rifle models.
Large maps sharpshooter and sniper class.
very large maps, two snipers the can choose rifle type bolt or semi.

 

[Zetsumei]

with 64 players max of servers. 1 marksman per team of 32 players is statistically speaking already too much, by having both marksman and snipers you will get too many.

Next to that the player amounts severly limit the possible size of maps. Pure tanking maps perhaps can be made quite large and snipers could possibly fit in there with camo.

Personally i don't see the need and sense for having any real sniper classes in the game purely because they should be fighting a different battle than a general map depicts. And don't see in anyway how it would add gameplay to the game beside the coolness factor.

You guys want them fine, but quite some people want to see a depiction of the front that resembles the battles of the past as much as possible. And with that prefer the more logical explanation and designation of a scoped marksman than having snipers in a place where they shouldn't be generally speaking.

Anyway lets stop arguing about this, as the discussion has already hit an halt since the first page.

 

[LemoN]

Currently there are different scopes for the semi auto rifles and the bolt rifles.

The semi auto rifles have 3x i would say.

And blot rifles have 4x. but i have no problem if it was adjustable from 4x to 6x.
And having two classes is smart think i posted this somewhere else no matter.
Small maps Sharpshooter.
Medium maps Sniper can choose between the semi and blot rifle models.
Large maps sharpshooter and sniper class.
very large maps, two snipers the can choose rifle type bolt or semi.

Simply not true. Could you please stop making up random stuff and post them as facts?

PS: @ Praxius, your argumentation on why the class we have now is a Sniper is simply stupid.

 

[Matt Baker]

Simply not true. Could you please stop making up random stuff and post them as facts?

PS: @ Praxius, your argumentation on why the class we have now is a Sniper is simply stupid.

Then tell me the truth then, smarty pants.

i see no problem in adding camo coats and wrapped rifles. Many i will guess say call of duty that COD that. So more details are always nice.
​

 

[LogisticEarth]

i see no problem in adding camo coats and wrapped rifles. Many i will guess say call of duty that COD that. So more details are always nice.

The counter argument is that the "snipers" in RO are actually squad or platoon marksmen. If RO is shooting for historical accuracy, then these soldiers should be dressed as a normal memeber of a squad would be. We've explained fairly thoroughly why the scoped riflemen in game are in fact marksmen or sharpshooters and not dedicated snipers. Also note that in Soviet doctrine the word "sniper" is more broadly used and also encompasses the DM role. However these soldiers were still typically dressed the same and did not operate autonomously outside thier squad.

And Cpt. Praxius, am I understanding it right that your arguement basically boils down to "pubbies play in a disorganized fashion, therefore all classes are really just crap and people should randomly fight without any direction?"

So how about you guys sit down and have a little pow wow to get your sh*t straight before you start ranting on about what a marksman and a sniper is, since you guys seem to love interchanging meanings and tactics to whatever suits your argument of the moment.

Generally we do have our "sh*t" straight. Our points are just going over your head because you're arguing from a point of ignorance about the real difference between the sniper and the marksman/sharpshooter. "Killing important targets" does not a sniper make. It's the way they operate that makes the difference. And how you play them in the game has no effect on the definition of the roles. If you're a SMG dude, and you break from your squad and go way off by yourself, hide in a bush, and plink at targets that are 300-400 yards away, you're not a sniper. You're a SMG trooper who's being a friggin' moron. The same is true with the marksman role in the game.

 

[iTRemeN]

Well because Im lazy, I will just link to wikipedia, [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper#World_War_II[/URL].

But as many here already have said, the "sniper" class in Red orchestra, is not a sniper, but a marksman. Altough in Russia, the word sniper is often used for both marksmen and snipers.