Will snipers/marksmen get camo coats and wrapped rifles?

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Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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Finland

Sorry, but snipers were deployed at platoon level!

That is true for the russians. Now how about the germans? Obviously they could add the extra sniper for the russians, but then someone would mention the balance issues it might cause. I know it's paradoxic to talk about balance in realism games, but I don't know many cases where notable unbalance has actually made the balance to work in the first place - other than in few strategy games.

Organisation and doctrine based approach is quite difficult to pull off in a shooter game and having a proper hierarchy is almost impossible to get working off with just some random people.
 
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Cpt-Praxius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 12, 2005
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Sorry, but snipers were deployed at platoon level!


"To examine the tactics of the Soviet Sniper, it is necessary to review the philosophy for using snipers in the first place. Under the Soviet system, snipers were fielded in teams of two with a sniper and an observer. Both team members were qualified snipers and changed roles after each kill. The sniper was to provide both scouting duties as well as point and indirect fire to disrupt enemy activities and communications. The observer assisted in spotting potential targets, provided security and recorded and confirmed kills. Each sniper carried a "kill book" where they recorded time, date, location and details of each kill or engagement. This book was also used to record detailed information on German troop concentrations and movements. As mentioned before, the sniper was assigned at platoon level and reported directly to the platoon leader. Most sniper teams worked autonomously and ranged ahead of advancing formations or across an assigned frontal sector."

the full article can be read here.

Well, thanks for confirming my position on the matter.... :cool:

Now, how do we go about getting some fancy outfits and purdy rifles? ;)


.... Here's another thing I found in the article.....

.... It acknowledges the difference between the two, but it seems they would work together. At least for the Germans.

Interesting, as it would appear that tactics would have to be somewhat similar for them both to be able to work together, thus thinning that line of Sharpshooter/Marksman/Sniper.... and further justifying being able to have sniper outfits within the game.
 
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Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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Now, how do we go about getting some fancy outfits and purdy rifles? ;)

If sharpshooters or snipers do have them, they would mostly be avaible for everyone - ignoring some exceptional cases like usage of umbrella (actually common for german snipers) or some other improvised foliage.

Yes, I know this sounds obnoxious but if you look at original pictures of snipers or riflemen using camouflage, they are in general made out for standard issue items. Those cases where it wasn't standard issue then it could make more sense, but I do admit this digs **** bit too much to make actually sense in the game somewhat ;)

One thing I do find paradoxic though that why would you want to wear forest camouflage in urban enviroment, especially if the map IS based on urban enviroment? if it were outskirts around Stalingrad and Volga, then it would make more sense.

Might be matter of adding customization option for soldiers though.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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Balance.... balance, well. There are maps with lot of hiding places which you only show 1mm of your head (don’t remember what the name was). And you use a mg. he’s out of grenade range, the only way kill him is with a highly accurate shot, like by a sniper.

But if the person sitting there doesnt have a sniper rifle then you can take him out with a rifle as well. Nothing unbalanced about that.
 

Cpt-Praxius

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 12, 2005
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One thing I do find paradoxic though that why would you want to wear forest camouflage in urban enviroment, especially if the map IS based on urban enviroment? if it were outskirts around Stalingrad and Volga, then it would make more sense.

Might be matter of adding customization option for soldiers though.

That's where I was leaning.... if the characters are supposed to have a level of customization to them as TWI were mentioning, then it'd make sense to bring back the player's option section (Name, character model selection, etc) but in more detail.

Back to TF2 for a second, in each class available in the game, you have the ability to change their outfits (to things you unlocked) weapons and such..... a similar thing could be done with each class in the game. Once you install the game, setup your character and take a few minutes to setup each class you'd play the most.

As an example:

Sniper.... change your outfit layout for forest combat, and for winter combat, or urban combat.... same with officers and such.

Or a more simpler method would be to have one or two generic models that use different textures depending on the environment, so then you don't have to screw around with making sure you have the right outfit for the map, but rather the model would automatically switch to the proper textures for the environment.

So for example, you'd pick a regular rifle.... nothing needs to change.... or you want a wrapped rifle, which uses a standard wrapped model, but the cloth used changes from gray, green or white. Same thing could be applied to the outfits. Have a regular uniform set, which would be the default ones used in each map (what we currently have) or setup your camo outfit or customized outfit that has automatically modified textures to represent the map being played.
 
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Matt Baker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 18, 2009
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That's where I was leaning.... if the characters are supposed to have a level of customization to them as TWI were mentioning, then it'd make sense to bring back the player's option section (Name, character model selection, etc) but in more detail.

Back to TF2 for a second, in each class available in the game, you have the ability to change their outfits (to things you unlocked) weapons and such..... a similar thing could be done with each class in the game. Once you install the game, setup your character and take a few minutes to setup each class you'd play the most.

As an example:

Sniper.... change your outfit layout for forest combat, and for winter combat, or urban combat.... same with officers and such.

Or a more simpler method would be to have one or two generic models that use different textures depending on the environment, so then you don't have to screw around with making sure you have the right outfit for the map, but rather the model would automatically switch to the proper textures for the environment.

So for example, you'd pick a regular rifle.... nothing needs to change.... or you want a wrapped rifle, which uses a standard wrapped model, but the cloth used changes from gray, green or white. Same thing could be applied to the outfits. Have a regular uniform set, which would be the default ones used in each map (what we currently have) or setup your camo outfit or customized outfit that has automatically modified textures to represent the map being played.


i don
 

EvilHobo

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 22, 2005
2,613
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Germany, NRW
I'm serious about not having scoped weapons.
Only complaints I ever saw from the total lack of snipers on a map was from either the people who style themselves as snipers or those incapable of adapting.
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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Finland
Actually from pure gameplay perspective I would agree with EvilHobo. Not having scoped rifles in the first place could quite interesting, but obviously due other factors (and the general idea that scoped rifles must be in WW2 game, otherwise it's not WW2 game to begin with) it might not be a good idea to make such decision.
 

213

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 22, 2009
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I'm serious about not having scoped weapons.
Only complaints I ever saw from the total lack of snipers on a map was from either the people who style themselves as snipers or those incapable of adapting.

that's silly. take away a staple weapon that makes sense in the context of the game, just because you don't want someone dominating with it(possibly dominating you).

snipers don't need to be part of a squad. they could be remnants of a previous engagement(since reinforcement is represented) or they could simply be absorbed into the squad. use your imagination, some common sense and a helping of historical facts, and stop relying on hollywood and modern portrayal of snipers.
 

Floyd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 19, 2006
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And further down the spiral path of sophomorism we go. From a forum clientelle that (for the most part) were precise in their arguments to this:
One has to love the internet genre that will take as fact improperly footnoted quotes of (supposed) quotes from books (that may or may not exist). If the quotes were legit, they more than likely break every copyright law known to the free world. The internets.....<sigh>

In all seriousness, some here apparently didn't played RO in its heyday, or perhaps, have found RO in recent times and have spent the majority of their time on a mod of retail RO. (And clearly haven't spent enough time with the ingame Mosin or Kar.)

-on to the topic at hand-

I like the gritty no-nonense approach to footsoldier-tactical-fps-warfare that RO brings. Fancy uniforms, gun options, perks etc. are ,imo, out of place in the style and ambiance that is RO. War is not pretty or about "looking good". War is about making use of whatever is at your disposal to kill your enemy and walking away from the encounter. I would think that the historical battle for Stalingrad in particular bears that out.

I'm of the opinion that rifle wraps, camo, etc. for the marksman/sharpshooter/sniper class are more of detraction to the RO game than the asset. I can't help but chuckle at the ghillie suited snipers running the urban streets of CoD.

Using (God help me) the information provided in some of the links above and in regards to the sniper vs designated marksman debate, I can't help but notice that no-one is harping on the fact that the sniper class (as depicted) would require TWO persons to properly fill it. Logic would dictate that there should also be a seperate "spotter" class. However, those roles could be handled somewhat akin to the current tanker roles. i.e. not a requirement to use the class, but there.

I have no qualms with individual maps dictating what roles are/are not available. (i.e much like EvilHobo's Kreigstadt maps that have no snipers or smoke.) However, should TWI convince themselves that the uniform/camo/wrap options for the scoped marksman class are a requirement for financial success, then matching the gear to the map should be paramount. And further, as it is a limited class and weapon, the scoped rifle should disappear upon the death of the person occupying the class and not be available for the general public to pick up. (Yes, Virginia, you respawn with it). Same should hold true for all specialty classes (mg's, etc.).

Floyd < your mileage will vary >
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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that's silly. take away a staple weapon that makes sense in the context of the game, just because you don't want someone dominating with it(possibly dominating you).

It's not about matter of getting dominated, shot at, pwned or whatever you want to call it. Considering the overall hassle and massive generic hardons people get when they hear WW2 and sniper in same sentence and especially in a video game, it becomes quite a major hassle. Especially when **** hits the fan and people are wondering about those 'special' sniper items or eguipment (which 80% of the time were standard issue for everyone) and when ingame people also go bat**** bonkers about it, it can cause more issues than anything else. What Hobo said about the maps having lack of snipers seems to be quite factual in RO:Ost, as maps without snipers can be bloody brilliant but then some people are howling their arse off because there's no snipers and it ruins the game.

213 said:
and stop relying on hollywood and modern portrayal of snipers.

Referring to what? The general idea of this discussion or the remotedly reasonable point to not have scoped weapons to begin with? Absense of snipers (or sharpshooters) to begin with is not hollywood or modern portrayal of snipers. Gameplay-wise it could do wonders on some occasions, and if someone were to argue that snipers (and\or sharpshooters) were there back then, what guarantees that they were working 24h\7 in every active hotspot where the action was?
 
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Capt.Cool

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 5, 2010
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War is not pretty or about "looking good". War is about making use of whatever is at your disposal to kill your enemy and walking away from the encounter. I would think that the historical battle for Stalingrad in particular bears that out.

Floyd, you are conflicting yourself with that statement. Of course war is not about "looking good". But on the eastern front soldiers used bedsheets for wintercamo and lime to white their helmets. So they took whatever was at their disposal to camoflage.
And bedsheet wintercamo did defenitly not look good. :rolleyes:

I can't help but chuckle at the ghillie suited snipers running the urban streets of CoD.
Nobody asked for ghillie suits in here. ;)

I can't help but notice that no-one is harping on the fact that the sniper class (as depicted) would require TWO persons to properly fill it. Logic would dictate that there should also be a seperate "spotter" class.
If you have just read the THIRD sentence of the quoted text, you would know:
"Both team members were qualified snipers and changed roles after each kill."
There was no observer, just 2 snipers who changed their roles (shooter/observer). Conclusion: No spotter class needed. :D
 
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-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
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for the idea that discussed sniper TEAMS being assigned at the platoon level, yes that is true and that also happened in the other armies of the time period. however these were specialists attached to the platoon, whereas the current role in the game is designed as having squad designated marksmen. fact is, in ROOST there is no sniper. if HOS was to add a more organized platoon system with individual squads, then yes they could add a two man sniper "squad" for an attached sniper team to fill that role. although, unless there's some drastic gameplay changes from what we currently have, i highly doubt they'll add a whole new independent specialist class. i'd personally prefer what the game is like right now with simple marksmen as it keeps with the designs for teamplay as squads. having a real sniper class would just lead to lone wolves running around not playing with the rest of the team.

imo overdone ghillie suits just aren't for RO.....maybe at the most have em in single player "sniper" missions. as for MINIMAL customization for cloth wrapped rifles for marksmen to identify them a little more, i think that's fine as long as it is MINIMAL.

oh, i also lol'd and total agreed with the comments regarding the "matt baker" post. sigh, the internet is once again a reflection of just how depressing our society has gotten.
 
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RedGuardist

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Jun 14, 2006
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for the idea that discussed sniper TEAMS being assigned at the platoon level, yes that is true and that also happened in the other armies of the time period. however these were specialists attached to the platoon, whereas the current role in the game is designed as having squad designated marksmen.


Yep. You are absolutely right.

Some people just don
 

-[SiN]-bswearer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 3, 2008
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funny thing too is that snipers attached as specialists to platoons rarely even opperated under/alongside the platoon. it was more of a formality type of thing that all soldiers had to belong to some type of "unit". platoon commanders would basically tell their sniper specialists to patrol or scout a sector, apart from the rest of the platoon. in fact, most russian "snipers" we in actual sniper battalions and regiments (i think) and the individual sniper teams were assigned to certain sectors etc...

that's why RO has limited designated marksmen. as long as the basic style of RO is kept, that's the way it should be. so given that we're dealing marksmen and not snipers, again the question is, "how much customization (camo/cloth wrap) is TOO much?" limited customization to help vary the skins up and allow some personalization, or bland cookie cut skins? i side with limited customization but not to the extent that it gets distracting and hurts immersion.
 

RedGuardist

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 14, 2006
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funny thing too is that snipers attached as specialists to platoons rarely even opperated under/alongside the platoon. it was more of a formality type of thing that all soldiers had to belong to some type of "unit". platoon commanders would basically tell their sniper specialists to patrol or scout a sector, apart from the rest of the platoon. in fact, most russian "snipers" we in actual sniper battalions and regiments (i think) and the individual sniper teams were assigned to certain sectors etc...


Yep. That