I agree with this 100%. I love support, and I like it just the way it is and there's nothing else I can really say about my feelings on the support perk besides adding that commando I wouldn't change either.
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Support Specialist : Balance
- Thread starter sverek
- Start date
I'm not being condecending here, merely countering these arguements. Although yes I do see people pushing over the top a little in this thread (The support is a tad overpowered, but not by much), they are raising valid points.
So while I see what you are saying, The weaknesses the support has don't match up to the strengths he has. Jsut as much as you guys, I don't want to Sharpshooter the Support and totally nerf the heck out of him, but I do feel he needs a tad bit of reigning in. That is why ghost is running the beta, and I am enthusiastic to play it.
The goal it bring the Support down a peg, without killing it. We are trying to work out what is fair and managable for the perk in comparison to the others. I'd love to see some of you try the Beta with the recent support changes and see how you get on
So while I see what you are saying, The weaknesses the support has don't match up to the strengths he has. Jsut as much as you guys, I don't want to Sharpshooter the Support and totally nerf the heck out of him, but I do feel he needs a tad bit of reigning in. That is why ghost is running the beta, and I am enthusiastic to play it.
The goal it bring the Support down a peg, without killing it. We are trying to work out what is fair and managable for the perk in comparison to the others. I'd love to see some of you try the Beta with the recent support changes and see how you get on
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Support Specialist might be a little too good for big ones and the trash but without using the tricks required to kill them do you think it's still possible for a level 6 support to solo scrake and FP?
The problem doesn't come from the perk mainly but just because someone created a few techniques which could easily bring down the big ones does not equal that anybody can do it or replicate it completely with ease.
Before most people learn about those tricks on dealing with the big ones, Support Specialist is considered as "balanced" and doesn't required a nerf.
But there is one question i would like you guys to answer me, why does it take you people so long to realise that Support Specialist is that good? It's only after 2 years when people finally start to realise that Support Specialist is too good for the game and decided to nerf it when "the secrets" are exposed? Wow i'm amazed.
The problem doesn't come from the perk mainly but just because someone created a few techniques which could easily bring down the big ones does not equal that anybody can do it or replicate it completely with ease.
Before most people learn about those tricks on dealing with the big ones, Support Specialist is considered as "balanced" and doesn't required a nerf.
But there is one question i would like you guys to answer me, why does it take you people so long to realise that Support Specialist is that good? It's only after 2 years when people finally start to realise that Support Specialist is too good for the game and decided to nerf it when "the secrets" are exposed? Wow i'm amazed.
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Every lvl 6 perk is overpowered, if you analize it closely. And every perk sucks when it is not levelled up. Support maybe is somehow powerful, but its weapons are the most epensive, and on lvl 6 he gets just the hunting shotgun, which you can't even trade in at a good price. A sharpie, for example, can get 600 pounds after the first wave without killing anyone. The support's ammo is expensive too, and it's quite low in quantity. The gnades are not as good as demo's pipes, after all. I hope everyone remembers the time it takes a support to reload?
And for those, who say, that support should be just a mere supporter (by welding doors), have you seen the perk levelling requirements? You actually have to weld a lot of those doors!
Every perk has its advantages and disadvantages (there are different topics in here saying which perks are overpowered), and if you just don't like one of them just because you don't like it, and you are bored, because you already levelled up all your perks to lvl 6, go and play on custom servers.
And for those, who say, that support should be just a mere supporter (by welding doors), have you seen the perk levelling requirements? You actually have to weld a lot of those doors!
Every perk has its advantages and disadvantages (there are different topics in here saying which perks are overpowered), and if you just don't like one of them just because you don't like it, and you are bored, because you already levelled up all your perks to lvl 6, go and play on custom servers.
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There was a good commercial in Russia about 10 years ago, which said "You don't like cats? You just don't know how too cook them!"
So, I assume, if you think support (demo/zerker/sharpshooter/commando/firebug/medic) overpowered, then you just don't really know how to play other perks=)
Just stop whining!
So, I assume, if you think support (demo/zerker/sharpshooter/commando/firebug/medic) overpowered, then you just don't really know how to play other perks=)
Just stop whining!
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LoL downvoted. Quite a long post, sorry no TL;DR because I have quite alot to say, and need to emphasize my point
Everyone has always known the Support is the most versatile class, the question is, is he TOO versatile?
Tricks aren't the only way to kill the big zeds. Support could always severely injure a Fleshpound or Scrake alone, and if he knew what he was doing he could usually kill it too. That is fine, but the problem comes in when he can do the same to everything else.
I've never really played support reguarly for the simple reason I get bored playing it, because there isn't really anything that makes me crap my pants. My enjoyment of the game doesn't come from mowing down hoardes of ZEDs, it comes from survivng despite all odds. Its why I never played the old Sharpshooter if I could help it.
Ofc its merely my point of view, but my best way of explaining it is this. Whenever I play a class I'm aware there are certain things I don't do well against, or in other words there is a certain situation that I want to avoid if I can because my class can't really deal with it without some support. (no pun intended)
Be honest, compare how many situations you come across as a Sharpshooter where you think "Crap I'm in real trouble" compared to how many you come across as a Support Specialist. In my case, there are plenty of moments where I make a mistake and realise that I'm toast as majority of classes, and if I make it out, I know I'm damned lucky.
I don't get that feeling with the Support or the Zerker, because there is always a reasonable chance of punching clear. THAT is what I object to with classes. If I cock up and my weakness challenges me, I should by all rights be dead. If I somehow make it, great, but I should be aware that I am lucky to have gotten free.
So there we are. Alot of people think the support is fine, as I say, he is only slightly overpowered, and tbh I can live with him in his current state. However, assuming Zerker kite teams get nerfed, the support will be the main staple perk of any player, because he is simply the most effective.
I would like to see a couple of small nerfs to him like those in the beta. He keeps his power, but sacrifices some survivability. Then I would start feeling that little bit of angst about encountering that situation that would cause me loads of problems, and make the class fun to play for me.
Thats my piece said, obviousy this game is made for everyone, not just me, so its a majority vote that counts. I can't express my point of view any better than this, so I'll probably drop this from now, cause there is nothing left to say. Cheers for reading
Everyone has always known the Support is the most versatile class, the question is, is he TOO versatile?
Tricks aren't the only way to kill the big zeds. Support could always severely injure a Fleshpound or Scrake alone, and if he knew what he was doing he could usually kill it too. That is fine, but the problem comes in when he can do the same to everything else.
I've never really played support reguarly for the simple reason I get bored playing it, because there isn't really anything that makes me crap my pants. My enjoyment of the game doesn't come from mowing down hoardes of ZEDs, it comes from survivng despite all odds. Its why I never played the old Sharpshooter if I could help it.
Ofc its merely my point of view, but my best way of explaining it is this. Whenever I play a class I'm aware there are certain things I don't do well against, or in other words there is a certain situation that I want to avoid if I can because my class can't really deal with it without some support. (no pun intended)
Spoiler!
Be honest, compare how many situations you come across as a Sharpshooter where you think "Crap I'm in real trouble" compared to how many you come across as a Support Specialist. In my case, there are plenty of moments where I make a mistake and realise that I'm toast as majority of classes, and if I make it out, I know I'm damned lucky.
I don't get that feeling with the Support or the Zerker, because there is always a reasonable chance of punching clear. THAT is what I object to with classes. If I cock up and my weakness challenges me, I should by all rights be dead. If I somehow make it, great, but I should be aware that I am lucky to have gotten free.
So there we are. Alot of people think the support is fine, as I say, he is only slightly overpowered, and tbh I can live with him in his current state. However, assuming Zerker kite teams get nerfed, the support will be the main staple perk of any player, because he is simply the most effective.
I would like to see a couple of small nerfs to him like those in the beta. He keeps his power, but sacrifices some survivability. Then I would start feeling that little bit of angst about encountering that situation that would cause me loads of problems, and make the class fun to play for me.
Thats my piece said, obviousy this game is made for everyone, not just me, so its a majority vote that counts. I can't express my point of view any better than this, so I'll probably drop this from now, cause there is nothing left to say. Cheers for reading
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It's those tricks that makes Support Specialist overpowered because he can always solo anything without getting hurt. Without those tricks he can still solo but he will need some help from his team which mean this will emphasise teamwork to come into play.
IMO those tricks are not the usual "bread and butter" kind of thing but something which requires the individual to really understand the mechanics of it before he or she can even utilise it well.
Without those tricks it will be harder to win the game because you will always need your team to help you take down the big ones. In conclusion, you either use the tricks to take down those big ones flawlessly without jeopardise your team or risk getting your whole team wiped out because you didn't take down the big ones quick enough.
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I finally get it.
It actually get TWO FREAKING YEARS for the people here to know how to:
1. make two (or three) granades explode right under a fp's feet
2. how much distance is needed for shotguns to do clearly much more damage (and this explain why people say supprot is good at point blank range for TWO YEARS)
Tricks? I dont think these are even tricks.... (again, the jumping IS a trick, but you DONT NEED to jump)
Also... isn't many people here claim that commando and firebug is the BEST perk for trash? And suddenly its support who are good for everything? We have many mercurial people here Just wait till they say demo op.
It actually get TWO FREAKING YEARS for the people here to know how to:
1. make two (or three) granades explode right under a fp's feet
2. how much distance is needed for shotguns to do clearly much more damage (and this explain why people say supprot is good at point blank range for TWO YEARS)
Tricks? I dont think these are even tricks.... (again, the jumping IS a trick, but you DONT NEED to jump)
Also... isn't many people here claim that commando and firebug is the BEST perk for trash? And suddenly its support who are good for everything? We have many mercurial people here
Just wait till they say demo op.
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I saw this comming people people like to complaing about every little thing they think is wrong about something. This happens on alot of game forums lol. Not shocking at all
you should see the TDU2 forums when they go down for matience. 5 pages of people saying they are going to never play the game blah blah blah when all they are doing is a gameupdate.
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Ibin nails it correctly.
I think they should just nerf the nade number down to 6 or something.
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So in your opinion, if, for example, map exploits exists for a long time and haven't found out in the first days after release, it should be leaved? And it is not 2 years. Before 1016 update SS was so badly overpowered, so support tricks wasn't required at all. So it is only a few months in which those tricks are found out.
I never did. Not because of bugs, but because it is a crappiest racing game I ever seen.
And if you started to point other games, I'll continue. For example, StarCraft was balancing more than 10 years. Because more and more strategies where found out, that made one race slightly stronger than another.
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Things have changed beetween the patches so you cant say it took 2 years. For example Support didnt always have AA12, and like Poosh said SS used to be the god-like perk which everyone used so it outshined even Support Specialists who - believe it or not - are the most powerful perk in the game atm but people only notice it now that SS is no longer extremely powerful but rather balanced.
No perk in the game should be good against every specimen without any actual weaknesses, I mean come on whats the weakness of support? Cant shoot things that are on the other side of the map?
His weapons do massive damage, they reload quickly, and he can carry more than enough backup weapons to make sure he never runs out of ammo. He'd be rather balanced if the weapons actually had a decent reload time to compensate for the power but you cant rly put a slow reload time on AA12 with the drum.. But the least they could do is remove the Hunting Shotgun fast reload bug, where you switch weapon and switch back to HS and its fully reloaded by itself without having to actually finish the reload animation. That alone would make a difference. Oh and fix the "no reload" bug too which allows you to empty the whole ammo reserve in seconds, not very cost-effective but its useful on the Patty or fleshpounds..
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So... there must be NO PEOPLE playing support when SS WAS "badly overpowered".
I cant believe anyone in a sane mind cannot notice that you need several feet for shotguns to do DOUBLE damage. And how to rage fp on purpose so that he still stand where your nade lands.
Again, the "trick" you guys talking is the jumping trick to make shotgun still do that double hitting at close range. But you DONT NEED IT to solo a fleshpound.
And the MOST IMPORTANT THING is, before the jumping trick is discovered, NOBODY said support is OP. The only thing changed is people know now you can jump at close range to do more damage. Without it, it ALREADY out shines most of the perks in both bigs and trash.
Or you are just suggesting that nobody really play support before now?
I cant believe anyone in a sane mind cannot notice that you need several feet for shotguns to do DOUBLE damage. And how to rage fp on purpose so that he still stand where your nade lands.
Again, the "trick" you guys talking is the jumping trick to make shotgun still do that double hitting at close range. But you DONT NEED IT to solo a fleshpound.
And the MOST IMPORTANT THING is, before the jumping trick is discovered, NOBODY said support is OP. The only thing changed is people know now you can jump at close range to do more damage. Without it, it ALREADY out shines most of the perks in both bigs and trash.
Or you are just suggesting that nobody really play support before now?
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@poosh:
Do not compare map exploits and the pre-nerfed sharpshooter against support specialist as they are both gamebreaking to the point of hopeless. Map exploits generally benefit all perks and pre-nerfed sharpshooter was too overpowered to the point it can finish off anything with a single crossbow bolt to the head. However it doesn't take Support Specialist one shot to finish FP but takes 3 grenades and 2 blast from hunting shotgun.
@hateme:
I don't think shotguns reload as fast as the other perks does and support specialist is only good at short to medium range unlike most perks which can excel further at long range.
Do not compare map exploits and the pre-nerfed sharpshooter against support specialist as they are both gamebreaking to the point of hopeless. Map exploits generally benefit all perks and pre-nerfed sharpshooter was too overpowered to the point it can finish off anything with a single crossbow bolt to the head. However it doesn't take Support Specialist one shot to finish FP but takes 3 grenades and 2 blast from hunting shotgun.
@hateme:
I don't think shotguns reload as fast as the other perks does and support specialist is only good at short to medium range unlike most perks which can excel further at long range.
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Well, sure, it was played before, but it's immense strength wasn't noticed, due to the Sharpshooter's insane power back then. So, to answer the question briefly: Yes, more or less, at least not to the extreme extent as now.
Now when people are stacking Supports, it is noticed that it is maybe a tad too versatile and powerful on its own against all specimens in camping situations (yes, it's supposed to be useful against all specimen, but not ALONE, i mean the perk is even called SUPPORT specialist) and removing the need of having to use different perks (you know, instead of having different roles in the group, emphasizing teamwork more directly and all those nice things
).Mostly, i'd say the important part is to fix the pellet bug first and foremost, then remove the handgrenade damage bonus (to reduce some of its tremendous power against Fleshies) and perhaps reduce the headshot multiplier just a tad (from 1,65 to 1.5-ish). That's the only things i would do to it, to reduce it just a little bit in power, while still not nerfing it to uselessness. As everybody is saying here: It's not overly overpowered, just a tiny bit so, and it would be nice to bring it closer to a more "perfectly balanced" status, like the Commando, that's all.
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Well, sure, it was played before, but it's immense strength wasn't noticed, due to the Sharpshooter's insane power back then. So, to answer the question briefly: Yes, more or less, at least not to the extreme extent as now.
Now when people are stacking Supports, it is noticed that it is maybe a tad too versatile and powerful on its own against all specimens in camping situations (yes, it's supposed to be useful against all specimen, but not ALONE, i mean the perk is even called SUPPORT specialist) and removing the need of having to use different perks (you know, instead of having different roles in the group, emphasizing teamwork more directly and all those nice things
Mostly, i'd say the important part is to fix the pellet bug first and foremost, then remove the handgrenade damage bonus (to reduce some of its tremendous power against Fleshies) and perhaps reduce the headshot multiplier just a tad (from 1,65 to 1.5-ish). That's the only things i would do to it, to reduce it just a little bit in power, while still not nerfing it to uselessness. As everybody is saying here: It's not overly overpowered, just a tiny bit so, and it would be nice to bring it closer to a more "perfectly balanced" status, like the Commando, that's all.
You take away nearly HALF of the damage and think it can balance it from "slightly OP" to balance? Really?
I dont think shotguns need any hs mutiplier btw.
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Long relo-
Low ammunitio-
Low rang-
Moderately expensive ammo and guns? Can we at least have that please, yes?
Dang, I forgot if they make fun of it or simply deny it, that means it's not an actual weakness.
Sure is delusional in here.
Can we at least stay realistic please?
The shotgun has a very long reload animation rivaled by the unperked LAR and only topped by the m32 and can't really do diddly squat against pounds and, to a lesser extent, scrakes, the hunting shotgun will kill you if you don't time your reloads (and switching to a different weapon and back will not reload it faster, you'll have it out exactly when you'd have it reloaded normally so I have no idea what you were on about with that) and is more of a sidearm than a main weapon especially due to the expensive ammo and the aa12 may have a fast-ish reload but you better don't make use of that too often or you'll run out of ammo faster than you can say "oh boy, fleshpounds and scrakes sure are weak against aa12 spam".
There are weaknesses, okay?
Basing your whole argumentation on there being no weaknesses whatsoever should only evoke pointing and laughter instead of agreement.
If you probably mean "too many strengths", don't just go on denying any and all obvious weaknesses.
That doesn't help proving your point.
Thank you.
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If for any reason Support Specialist need to be nerf to be "perfectly balanced" like Commando, you will see the community shifting towards stacking Demolitions and Sharpshooters and the community will once again complain of lacking teamwork from other perks and stuff.
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