Support Specialist : Balance

[Deafmute]

Stacking demo is ALREADY happening anyways....

It is?

 

[ph30nix]

im seeing the usual habit of everyone saying OP is (by their argument) is assuming perfect situation for all possible scenerios so please keep in mind that this will rarely be the case. that said

Support is fine only thing i can agree with is # of nades lower or reduced damage bonus

Melee/Hunting Trick for Scrakes
takes skill to pull off, isnt without risk depending on surrounding specimens, if a teamate even breaths on the scrake it could ruin the stun.

Flesh Pounds
takes 120-160 cash worth of nades + some ammo to solo one without taking damage. also surrounding specimens can have a huge impact (one siren scream, clot grabbing you, husk fireball bouncing FP out of the way)
without using nades they take a decent chunk of ammo to kill solo and you will more then likely take a hit trying it this way without backup. (which if you require back up not exactly OP?)

Trash
You have to be careful with ammo usage as support, if you try to shoot at everything that moves you will run out of ammo before the end or at least cut it VERY close. And while support ammo isnt as expensive as some ammo types its not cheap either....

So if as everyone says Your Owning FP with Nades, Killing everything that moves and loaded with a bunch of differnt weapons can i get some Dosh?

 

[brick_top1982]

I enter a fair amount of the pub games, just to see how randoms play with each other. More often than not, its a zerkfest

I've seen a few randoms pull off the scrake trick. But I am yet to see anyone other than the people on my friends list successfully take out a Fleshpound in game as a Support.

I still see a great deal of supports either A) spamming AA12 or B) Spamming Hunting shotgun glitch at the biggins.

 

[FSUBoo]

I've seen a few randoms pull off the scrake trick. But I am yet to see anyone other than the people on my friends list successfully take out a Fleshpound in game as a Support.

THIS right here is exactly what people fail to realize. Just because some people can pull it off doesn't mean a large chunk of the player base can. I've been saying for a while it's not the Support Specialist perk itself that's OP, it's the players. Support is an easy class to play decent, but an extremely hard class to play well.

 

[Fang]

I've been saying for a while it's not the Support Specialist perk itself that's OP, it's the players.

I can't even remember how many times I've said this to you guys.

 

[SMIFF]

Just because some people can pull it off doesn't mean a large chunk of the player base can.

It used to be the same with Berserkers, and now they're everywhere.

 

[poosh]

I think the Fleshpound solo-kill trick is easy enough to be mastered. If there are no Sirens behind, of course. Only thing you need to learn is distance to make first HSg blast, and how much you need to retreat back to have no damage from your nades. Other manipulations are simple.
Scrake killing technique is more complicated. First you need to make precise hit to the Scrake's head with axe or katana. Second you need very fast switch to HSg, sit down and make 100% precise shot, so all pellets hit the head (if using katana). I personally prefer axe over katana. First, I have much experience of head-hitting Scrakes with axe from playing as zerker (with katana I'll miss the head too often). Second, it's easier to switch to HSg, because it is the only weapon assigned to the key (Axe+Pump Shotgun+Hsg) while with katana you mostly equip AA12 + HSg, and both of them are accessed by the same key (can be used "Switch to last weapon key" too, but it's too complicated to me). Third, axe doing more damage, so HSg blast can be less precise: 17 of 20 pellets must hit the head on 6p HoE, so it requires 85% precision, comparing to 100% with katana.
At the beginning I thought removing flinching ability for non-berserkers will solve the problem. But it isn't so simple. Actually this trick is used very rare due to required skill and fail probability are too high. It is muche easier to stun Scare first, then finish him by support's HSg double blast. Scrake can be stunned by many ways: berserk axe hit to the head, or backstab with axe or katana, Sharpshooter shot with LAR or xbow, LAW rocket, or even support can stun Scrake by himself by axe's alt-fire hit to the head from behind. And in those situations skilled support are excellent Scrake finisher. For example, you need 5 LAR headshots to kill Scrake on 6p HoE. Same amount of hits from berserker alt-fire axe from the front. In the same time support can finish the Scrake after only 1 of those hits. So it makes not Support Specialist to support the team, but team a little bit support Support Specialist to kill Scrakes. Same with Fleshpounds. Other zeds can be killed by Support alone without good skills required.
Doesn't it makes support overpowered? I think it does.

 

[Steeps]

THIS right here is exactly what people fail to realize. Just because some people can pull it off doesn't mean a large chunk of the player base can. I've been saying for a while it's not the Support Specialist perk itself that's OP, it's the players. Support is an easy class to play decent, but an extremely hard class to play well.

I'd unfortunately have to disagree, and the simplicity think this is why we're seeing 3-4 supports per team. Most people aren't aware of the scrake/fp tricks, and I personally never use them in multiplayer games unless I absolutely have to. My ping is often too unreliable to hit every pellet for the scrakes, and with the grenade explosion glitch if you have a competent demo there is no reason to take a chance throwing grenades at a fleshpound.

Kiting teams are popular because after 3-4 kiting games and learning a few basics it is a cinch. Support is popular because you don't need to go out of your way to do anything extraordinary and can be more productive than any of the other perks. A perk with super powerful weapons (with plenty of ammo) with surprising decent range, 11 perked grenades, 24kg carrying weight and absolutely no downsides? Shotguns are just incredibly strong and after firebug the perk probably has the second lowest learning curve.

Basically what I'm trying to say is the problem I see is everyone is playing the perk, and there is little to no variety in HoE games nowdays. People are even threatening to kick those who refuse to play the perk (hell, I've been kicked once and threatened once in the past 24 hours for not being the third or fourth support specialist). It just seems every game is either a kiting zerker team or a group of supports crouched up in a corner firing away. Both are fun sometimes but I'd like some variety!

For the record I'm not some godly player and no better than your average player at this game.

 

[FSUBoo]

That's just it though steeps. I'm not for the stacking supports and themost you'll ever see me in a game with supports is one other. I'd rather have one or 2 skilled supports than 6 incompetent ones. I see more sharpshooters in the games I play than supports. When I play the game I don't go soloing fleshpounds, I let the demo take the FPs like they should. That's where most people are arguing from, a supper soloing the FPs. While the group I run with has at least 5 different people that can do it and do it consitently, we don't. We just play killing floor in a team environment using teamwork to win games.

 

[Steeps]

Oh, sorry. I interpreted that post as "support is not op because only a few people can solo scrakes and fleshpounds with it".

I think support is op because it overshadows the other perks and t urns games into a shotgun-fest. Same with the zerker; I don't think people have a problem with it soloing fleshpounds and scrakes as much as they have a problem with joining a game and essentially being forced to take part in a kite-fest.

Oh, and if I like the next update (which I probably will since I've been happy with the past ones) I'm most likely opening up a server with perk limits. Right now no more than two per perk sounds quite appealing to me.

 

[outofrealman]

I think support is op because it overshadows the other perks

That's why demo will be next, we wait and see.

 

[poosh]

I don't like perk limits - sometimes is very fun play with 6 firebugs in the team

Can I ask you a question: If Support isn't OP at all, why most of the players, who like Commando and play it a lot, switches from it to Support on wave 6 or 7? If Command was so good as Support, they should stay Commando till the end of the game, don't they? Answer is simple - because Support is good for thrash cleaning, can easy kill Sirens and Husks from close/moderate distance, and also good for finishing or even killing Scrakes and Fleshpounds. While Commando can barely finish the Scrake and has no chances against FP, even if it is badly wounded.

So my suggestion is simple: don't mess with shotgun penetration bug or headshot multiplier - it could lead to Support become out of the scene. Just make Support weak against Scrakes - by adding damage resistance from all shotguns.

 

[Dolphin Buff Man]

I certainly think that the scrake stunning should be removed, but the grenades are fine (in my opinion), I think that if you got rid of the grenades, you are robbing the support of a support tactic which would be to weaken the incoming zeds with the grenades and then as you said to finish them off with the Hunting Shotty. I like the grenades, but yeah, probably remove scrake stun, but if that was applied, it should apply to all classes except beserker and Sharp shooter.

 

[Rainydaykid]

I don't like perk limits - sometimes is very fun play with 6 firebugs in the team

Can I ask you a question: If Support isn't OP at all, why most of the players, who like Commando and play it a lot, switches from it to Support on wave 6 or 7? If Command was so good as Support, they should stay Commando till the end of the game, don't they? Answer is simple - because Support is good for thrash cleaning, can easy kill Sirens and Husks from close/moderate distance, and also good for finishing or even killing Scrakes and Fleshpounds. While Commando can barely finish the Scrake and has no chances against FP, even if it is badly wounded.

So my suggestion is simple: don't mess with shotgun penetration bug or headshot multiplier - it could lead to Support become out of the scene. Just make Support weak against Scrakes - by adding damage resistance from all shotguns.

I have gone to wave 10 as commando all the time on HoE, and had no issues. The comm is a much better trash cleaner than supports. I have out killed supports as a commando in pretty much every game I have played. I do disagree with the no chances on FP thing, but I generally do ignore those anyways.

The commando can destroy every enemy but scrakes and fleshpounds fairly easily. I think this price is well worth it.

 

[brick_top1982]

A few weeks ago someone said this to me in game. We were in Biolabs 6man HoE
Was support among 5 others but I decided to switch to SS xbow wave 6: All of us lvl6

Me: Switching to SS to help out with those distance husk and Scrakes
Admin: No, SS xbow sucks for scrakes, better to spam AA12 or have everyone Alt fire Hunting.
Me: Trust me, you are going to want an SS with an xbow at least for the husk, because those right now is what is causing us to get near death each wave.
Admin: No, we're doing fine, if you switch to SS we will for sure wipe.
(At this time wave six comes and I switch to SS xbow)
Admin: WHEN we wipe, I blame Nips because he switched to SS.
(Scrakes come I get a chance to stun, but they all start spamming their AA12s and nades, not paying attention to any of the trash coming forward. Half way through the wave all 5 supports end up dead either by scrake, or self nading. I was the last standing but soon get overrun)

Admin: Nips=Noob at KF because he thinks xbow is good
Me: Yes chuck norris

Never had such a good laugh in a long time.

 

[outofrealman]

I have gone to wave 10 as commando all the time on HoE, and had no issues. The comm is a much better trash cleaner than supports. I have out killed supports as a commando in pretty much every game I have played. I do disagree with the no chances on FP thing, but I generally do ignore those anyways.

The commando can destroy every enemy but scrakes and fleshpounds fairly easily. I think this price is well worth it.

You out-play other players, not out kill them. You are better than others doesn't mean commando is better. And how can a commando stand a change against fps? Last time I cheak 5 mag of ak or SCAR doesnt nearly kill a fleshpound.

And unless I am armed with M32 + ak, I cant kill any pound without kiting for a really long time. Really long. Even solo fleshpound is a pain in the *** for commandos (unles again, you have any kind of explosive)

Lastly, unless you are defending somewhere while zed only come in small groups (or just a really wide opened area), there is no way commando can kill trash better than support.

 

[ph30nix]

You out-play other players, not out kill them. You are better than others doesn't mean commando is better. And how can a commando stand a change against fps? Last time I cheak 5 mag of ak or SCAR doesnt nearly kill a fleshpound.

And unless I am armed with M32 + ak, I cant kill any pound without kiting for a really long time. Really long. Even solo fleshpound is a pain in the *** for commandos (unles again, you have any kind of explosive)

Lastly, unless you are defending somewhere while zed only come in small groups (or just a really wide opened area), there is no way commando can kill trash better than support.

again commandos arent ment to solo FP's or Scrakes your playing them wrong if you think they are.

and if the trash is spread out a support will get swarmed more easily then a commando or if multiple trash happen to get in close the cone of fire of the shotty is negated.

 

[outofrealman]

1.again commandos arent ment to solo FP's or Scrakes your playing them wrong if you think they are.

2.and if the trash is spread out a support will get swarmed more easily then a commando or if multiple trash happen to get in close the cone of fire of the shotty is negated.​

​

1. I was refering to his statement about he disagree "commando have no chance gainst fp".

2. That's why support like to have a katana? No?

 

[Gridlok]

Hello lads, I was playing a lot on HoE lately and I came to conclusion, that supporter is overpowered comparing to other classes. how?

1) Having 11 Grenades, he can take down fp in 3 seconds. 3-4 grenades is enough to blow up FP. So supporter can quickly handle up to 3 FPs on his own. Other classes can only dream of it. (Demolition has to set pipes and pipes are known not to be so reliable)

I stopped reading at '3-4 grenades is enough to blow up FP'. Why? Because clearly you have no idea what you're talking about. Try to 'blow up FP' on HoE with 4 grenades. Try it.

4 direct nades with a level 6 support spec will deal close to 2250 damage to a FP. This isn't even enough damage to kill one FP on HoE solo. Now, hitting it with nades then finishing the deal with a shotgun, that will lead to success, but hardly against 3 FP on HoE, you'd get rolled right over.

IMO, Support Specialist is fine, Berserker is fine, Sharpshooter is fine, Medic is fine, Demo is fine. The only perks I could stand to see changed are Commando and Firebug, and those would be buffs, not nerfs.

 

[FSUBoo]

And unless I am armed with M32 + ak, I cant kill any pound without kiting for a really long time. Really long. Even solo fleshpound is a pain in the *** for commandos (unles again, you have any kind of explosive)

Lastly, unless you are defending somewhere while zed only come in small groups (or just a really wide opened area), there is no way commando can kill trash better than support.

First, you seem to forget what a ton of players in Killing Floor forget. EVERY perk has grenades, all of which do large chunks of damage to Fleshpounds because,.....lets remember....... THEY'RE WEAK TO EXPLOSIVES. Yes that's right, any perk can do chunks of damage to fleshpounds with grenades.

2. That's why support like to have a katana? No?

Secondly, I can kill scrakes without using the katana, the main reason I carry a katana or axe is because it lets you kill trash zeds like Clots, Gorefasts, and Stalkers without having to use any ammo. It's more reliable than a 9mm.