AK vs Scar?

[9_6]

What I see is 3 popular opinions on this:

• The SCAR should be buffed so it's more effective against big enemies
• The SCAR should be buffed to it's more effective against small enemies
• Herp da derp, SCAR is fine, maybe nerf some moar.

The latter is only widely spread by as much as 1 member though so we really just need to decide what sort of buff is to be applied to it. Cause no one seriously agrees that the much more expensive SCAR is superior to the AK in any way that matters.
It's not supposed to be good against big enemies so buffing it with those in mind is the completely wrong approach though.

There are 3 options:

Just raising the damage to the breaking point of 1-shotting crawlers on suicidal would mean almost going all the way back to its old damage which presumably was too much... or so it seems.
I disagree with it having been "too much" though and so do many others. So this is the "easy way", just a rollback.

A "happy medium" of 70 damage would mean 2 shots for crawlers on suicidal but 1 less shot for stalkers.
Perhaps it would also mean you can stun gorefasts again which is quite invaluable. I don't know.
This would be the compromise but why making compromises when nothing was wrong?

Damage alone isn't the only way to buff a weapon though, bullet penetration is another option to make the SCAR specifically better at mowing down trash, not at dealing with bigger targets.
This would make the SCAR a more interesting weapon that truly stands out from the other 2 commando weapons.

 

[Benjamin]

I don't see anything particularly silly with his post. It's pretty much completely factual.

The only thing the Scar has going for it is a scope, which is completely subjective as one can conceivably be just as good at using ironsights.

Oh no, I do agree with what he was saying. The SCAR is a pile of crap. Obviously that's not what I was referring to, but it doesn't matter.

As I've said before I'm all for giving the SCAR more power to assist in taking down the bigger guys. We already have the Bullpoop and AK for crowd control.

 

[Salad Snake]

Oh no, I do agree with what he was saying. The SCAR is a pile of crap. Obviously that's not what I was referring to, but it doesn't matter.

As I've said before I'm all for giving the SCAR more power to assist in taking down the bigger guys. We already have the Bullpoop and AK for crowd control.

Oh, my mistake good sir.

Anyway, there is also a fourth option that would also please the keep-Scar-nerfed crowd: Reduce it's price to reflect it's decreased solo usefulness. This has a number of effects:

1. Emphasizes Commando's small-guy role

2. Emphasizes weapon synergy with Commando, since with this change he basically has 3 same-tier weapons that he can mix & match.

3. Scar now basically becomes an emergency mag extension for the AK (or a slightly more powerful alternative to long-range fighting compared to Bullpup).

4. Scar stays nerfed in damage (of course) but still increases in usefulness. Sorta.

5. Commando becomes more of an economy class like Zerker, doling out money to the more expensive perks.


A good buff to Commando is general if this is decided upon would be a weapon switch speed bonus in addition to his weapon reload speed.

 

[9_6]

So then we have 2 AKs. Whoop dee doo.
I thought the basic idea was that different weapons differ from each other in significant ways?

Name 2 guns that are as similar as the AK and a cheaper SCAR would be.

 

[outofrealman]

What M14 can do: one body shot crawlers, one body shot stunning clots, one head shotting gorefasts and bloats. And one shot stunning husks, two shots for the kill (same with sirens).

Shouldn't all these be the job of commando instead of sharpshooter!? The only zed a commando can stun is stalkers. Headshotting gorefasts and bloats will just leave them headless. And it take nearly one clip if you NEED to drop a bloat even you use the first bullet to head shot.

With the buff of scrakes and fleshpounds, undo the nerf of SCAR is not really a game breaking move and surely will not make the perk overpowered. With the 75% health raging and increased head health scrakes, commando is nearly impossible to solo scrakes without getting one hit at least.

I dont really see the problem of undo the nerf when most of us agree that M14 is fine now.

 

[Pluberus]

Personally, I prefer the AK's ironsights to the Scar's dotsight because it is much "tighter" - especially when you are walking around "quick scoping" for accuracy.

If you simply reduce the Scar's price, we'll just have two AKs - there's barely any difference between the two.

M14 does everything the Scar does, but better. The Scar needs to be buffed - either with damage or with piercing.

 

[Salad Snake]

So then we have 2 AKs. Whoop dee doo.
I thought the basic idea was that different weapons differ from each other in significant ways?

Name 2 guns that are as similar as the AK and a cheaper SCAR would be.

That is apparently what the keep-Scar-nerfed crowd wants. Give Commando the "unique" ability to carry what is basically two copies of the same weapon, since you can't carry two of the same weapon normally.

I'm all for increasing it's damage back now that FP and Scrake head HP is buffed. There's no reason not to rebuff it. I still also think the Husks and Sirens can be proper Commando targets as well.

 

[Merin Redplate]

As long as it can 1 shot Crawlers, Clots, and Stalkers... I'm happy.

 

[Rainydaykid]

As long as it can 1 shot Crawlers, Clots, and Stalkers... I'm happy.

What he said. Also, it would be nice to have an option to double down on your ammo, for double the weight. As in, A bullpup and 20 mags would be 12kg, or an AK and 20 mags are 14kg or whatever. Also, be nice to double 9mm ammo for 3kg or so. I think the 9mm with 30 extra mags would be a stout backup, even though I hardly ever come even close to running out of 9mm ammo, ever. The option would be nice, kind of a side by side alternative to dual 9mms or something.

 

[Sammers]

I know. Remove the Scar.

Bullpup for Lesser zeds, AK for tougher ones.

People coped before the SCAR even existed, why not just remove it completely if people are only going to complain about it not being godlike? Commandos(and other perks) are being spoiled as it is.

 

[trilance]

Only people complaining are the players with too much skill .

 

[Salad Snake]

Or because people are balancing using Sharpie as a reference....he's still better you know. At Commando's job and his own.


Everyone is just ignoring the elephant in the room because the 9mm nerf has been suggested so many times before.

 

[Lewt]

Sharpshooter is obviously better at a certain skill level, where you're able to hit the head consistently, and is a problem. The nature of the two classes makes things a little hard to balance. Either you make a sharpshooter just as good as a commando if he hits the head 100% of the time, or you make the commando so powerful it requires little skill to play as. It seems RIGHT to me that the sharpshooter is more powerful with a good player. But I do have a couple thoughts (that have been suggested by many, many people..)

Removing the 9mm sounds like a good option but a bit drastic. A sharpshooter with dual handcannons and an M14 hitting the head EVERY SINGLE TIME will outdamage the commando massively. To be a bit more realistic, say, a handcannon and crossbow, with 75% headshot rate - 96 bullets and 40 bolts. Now if the sharpshooter was only on crowd control, he'd majorly outshine the average commando. But on the two harder difficulties, he simply doesn't have a whole lot of ammunition to maintain that. Players would have to start using the pistol for RARE self-defence purposes, and possibly as a poor man's sniper rifle near the end of a wave.

I propose a bit higher of a headshot bonus, and lowering or totally removing the body damage - with a total less than the 110% we have now. 75% headshot and 15% body could be worth testing in the next beta, as long as the crossbow/FP are tweaked a bit for that. The 9mm getting removed is a last resort, imo.


As for the thread itself.. I generally just stick with the Bullpup/AK now. My main annoyance is that I can't get a zerker to buy me a cheap katana, as I only have 2 free blocks.

The SCAR wasn't super capable of dealing with Fleshpounds in the first place, unless you were in some ideal location (like the Fleshpound being a hundred miles away.. That's where I'd want him) or if he's getting fired upon by everyone else. Though I will admit it was good at roughing up scrakes, especially on lower difficulties. Bring him to 50 - 55% health, reload, riddle his face with bullets. But 6-man suicidal? Oh no. A SLIGHT nerf was fine, like 15%, but this was just a bit much. I used the SCAR mainly for panic situations anyway, when I had to reload the AK or if there were more small mobs than I could handle with accurate shots.

 

[Salad Snake]

Well I think the beta buff is good. Commando is largely fine. It's just a matter of reducing Sharpie's effectiveness at Commando's job.


Sure, you need to hit the head to be effective as Sharpshooter. But Commando also MUST headshot at any difficulty past Normal, otherwise they will be overrun or need assistance holding even one angle of attack. Headshots are just as important for Commando, only instead of having to line up one shot, you instead must adjust for recoil on 3-4 headshots at a time. Not saying it's more skillful, it's just that Sharpie is all about hitting the head with your first shot, while Commando is about hitting the head with your subsequent shots (that's the hardest part for me at least). They are different playing styles.

Just like Commando doing fine without the Scar, Sharpie did fine without the 9mm. Removing bodyshot bonuses would be nice too, but I'm not saying Sharpie shouldn't be able to fight his way out of a wet paper bag or anything.

With beta changes, that katana is going to be much less attractive off-perk, so Bullpup/AK/1-block machete is suddenly much more attractive.

 

[Colton Grundy]

I think they should cut the recoil of the SCAR down just a tiny bit, enough to at least control the damn thing... Going full auto at level two is like a shotgun. Also I think the damage should go up to around 65. It was too high before and it's way too low now.

 

[outofrealman]

Sharpshooter is obviously better at a certain skill level, where you're able to hit the head consistently, and is a problem. The nature of the two classes makes things a little hard to balance. Either you make a sharpshooter just as good as a commando if he hits the head 100% of the time, or you make the commando so powerful it requires little skill to play as. It seems RIGHT to me that the sharpshooter is more powerful with a good player. But I do have a couple thoughts (that have been suggested by many, many people..)

If you dont aim for the head when playing as a commando, even a gorefast takes 1/3 mag to drop. If you cant even hit the head, firebug and support may be a better choice.


Removing the 9mm sounds like a good option but a bit drastic. A sharpshooter with dual handcannons and an M14 hitting the head EVERY SINGLE TIME will outdamage the commando massively. To be a bit more realistic, say, a handcannon and crossbow, with 75% headshot rate - 96 bullets and 40 bolts. Now if the sharpshooter was only on crowd control, he'd majorly outshine the average commando. But on the two harder difficulties, he simply doesn't have a whole lot of ammunition to maintain that. Players would have to start using the pistol for RARE self-defence purposes, and possibly as a poor man's sniper rifle near the end of a wave.

If you consider the killing speed on small zeds, commando is better thanks to the lager mag. For medium zeds, ss do much better clearly. For bigs, sharpshotoer dont really out damage commando. However, sharpshooters sharpshotoer's weapons can due large damage to heads, and head have much less health. So sharpshotoer drop big guys much faster than commandos.

I propose a bit higher of a headshot bonus, and lowering or totally removing the body damage - with a total less than the 110% we have now. 75% headshot and 15% body could be worth testing in the next beta, as long as the crossbow/FP are tweaked a bit for that. The 9mm getting removed is a last resort, imo.

The 9mm is what causing the real problem. And no one seems to notice what the M14 can do. Also, I agree to make sharpshotoers "pay" for missing the head.

As for the thread itself.. I generally just stick with the Bullpup/AK now. My main annoyance is that I can't get a zerker to buy me a cheap katana, as I only have 2 free blocks.

The SCAR wasn't super capable of dealing with Fleshpounds in the first place, unless you were in some ideal location (like the Fleshpound being a hundred miles away.. That's where I'd want him) or if he's getting fired upon by everyone else. Though I will admit it was good at roughing up scrakes, especially on lower difficulties. Bring him to 50 - 55% health, reload, riddle his face with bullets. But 6-man suicidal? Oh no. A SLIGHT nerf was fine, like 15%, but this was just a bit much. I used the SCAR mainly for panic situations anyway, when I had to reload the AK or if there were more small mobs than I could handle with accurate shots.

In beta, scrakes rage @ 75% health. It is very difficult for commandos to kill one scrake alone. (you should not do it as a commando anyways)

 

[Rainydaykid]

Lvl 6 sharp 9mm does more damage on a headshot than the SCAR. On suicidal, one 9mm hs drops a gorefast, a SCAR headshot only decaps it. That thing is a main weapon in disguise, and has no weaknesses, especially when you also consider its instantaneous reload.

 

[Salad Snake]

Lvl 6 sharp 9mm does more damage on a headshot than the SCAR. On suicidal, one 9mm hs drops a gorefast, a SCAR headshot only decaps it. That thing is a main weapon in disguise, and has no weaknesses, especially when you also consider its instantaneous reload.

Yeah, I hate to make a CoD reference, but the first time I saw the 9mm reload at lvl5 I instantly thought of Slight-of-Hand perk. That reload is crazy fast.

 

[Rainydaykid]

Yeah, I hate to make a CoD reference, but the first time I saw the 9mm reload at lvl5 I instantly thought of Slight-of-Hand perk. That reload is crazy fast.

What would be cool would be to make the 9mm useful for all classes. I really like it as a basic weapon, it is not bad, and I use it regularly, even on suicidal.

My idea for the 9mm is to give 1 point per lvl toward an upgrade. So you could spend a point on 10% faster reload, 10% more damage, or 10% recoil reduction. You would have to spend the points per perk. Take away the sharp 9mm buffs, and faster 9mm reload for commando and use the point system across the board. For example, if I had a lvl 6 whatever, my fully upgraded 9mm could be +60% dmg, or +60% reload speed, but not both, or a mix of any, +20% reload speed and +40% dmg.

I think this would help make the 9mm more useful.

 

[dextronaut]

the SCAR blows now. AK47 and Bullpup are better choices.