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"Why Even Try?" A demonstration of the berserker perks weakness.

Soanos

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 2, 2009
569
8
0
Finland
Tried to watch the video but some things you said just made very little sense to me and forced me to stop.

Really, you are comparing a PERK LEVEL 5 AGAINST 3 LEVEL 25 PERKS, and complain the level 5 perk is inferior. Of course it is weaker. Please, just go ahead and boost your zerker to level 25 like the rest of your perks and give it a new go.

And the final nail to the coffin came at around the 10:50 mark you say you aren't using the crosshair because you come from KF1 and have a bajillion points in some perk. Yes, many of us do. But come on, even I don't miss half of my shots at a wall of cysts in front of me with AA12 from point blank range. At that point I felt I had just wasted 11 minutes of my life on watching someone complain about the berserker because he has a bias against it and has barely even made a half-arsed attempt to try the perk out.

But I do feel the perk does require some adjusting, mainly in the damage mitigation or avoidance area.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Tried to watch the video but some things you said just made very little sense to me and forced me to stop.

Really, you are comparing a PERK LEVEL 5 AGAINST 3 LEVEL 25 PERKS, and complain the level 5 perk is inferior. Of course it is weaker. Please, just go ahead and boost your zerker to level 25 like the rest of your perks and give it a new go.

And the final nail to the coffin came at around the 10:50 mark you say you aren't using the crosshair because you come from KF1 and have a bajillion points in some perk. Yes, many of us do. But come on, even I don't miss half of my shots at a wall of cysts in front of me with AA12 from point blank range. At that point I felt I had just wasted 11 minutes of my life on watching someone complain about the berserker because he has a bias against it and has barely even made a half-arsed attempt to try the perk out.

But I do feel the perk does require some adjusting, mainly in the damage mitigation or avoidance area.
I'll explain this again, as i did in another thread: Perk level doesn't matter at all here.

25% damage is not a noticeable change on any target but the boss. a level 0 berserker and a level 25 berserker both kill a fleshpound in 2 swings of he pulv alt in solo mode

This is because at the damage numbers KF uses (which are in the hundreds at most) a 25% increase isn't noticable, and since mob health doesn't scale at all, it doesn't matter here

on the commando it matters, because 25% more damage on 40 damage makes that 40 into 50 damage, which -IS- significant in terms of DPS on large targets, for the support, it also matters (Less pellets need to hit to do the same damage, which pairs well with the penetration.

25% damage on the zerk though, who is mostly one big swing weapons, does almost nothing, the only gun it really affects is the nailgun (in shotgun mode, specifically)

Melee swing speed/movespeed? Doesn't matter one swing wipes out small groups and a pulv alt does a ton of damage and staggers, and you one-shot husks & sirens from level 1 anyways and melee'ing a bloat is for newbies to learn the meaning of death.

The most important things (your damage resistance) is the same. At every level. Period. Doesn't change.

The problems are with the berserkers actual range, penetration, and cone of fire, as well as it's weapons. the melee ones work fine, but the ranged ones are just traps and not worth the cost to buy or reload.

and for the record, i've played up to perk 16 now across all difficulties, my feeling on the perk still hasn't changed. you're an overglorified distraction who can smack down large targets in perfectly ideal situations assuming your team also knows what they're doing - Or if you don't have a team and you're flying solo.

Perk-rankism only mattered in KF1 where you scaled to double damage and all that jazz at rank 6, so lets all get off that horse and move on. ;)
 

headbox

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 8, 2015
284
0
0
Did you... record your screen with a camcorder?

A lot of what you said is demonstrably wrong, totally failing to address what actually happens in game. The Eviscerator is not less effective than a lawnmower blade. Maybe if you're anesthetized or you grew up playing Call of Duty, but it basically instagibs all non-special enemies with both it's free melee and alternate attack; with it's ranged attack killing sirens husks and bloats instantly at almost any range but hey whatever, useless. Ability to mow down entire spawns around a corner, sure. I often choose not to use the fuel attack and just bash entire spawns of basic zeds to death, so whatever; maybe you're bad.

Melee swing speed/movespeed? Doesn't matter one swing wipes out small groups and a pulv alt does a ton of damage and staggers, and you one-shot husks & sirens from level 1 anyways and melee'ing a bloat is for newbies to learn the meaning of death.
Melee vs bloat is a litmus test of skill in this game. If you smack them in the head, they don't puke on you. The real bushido begins where you plan on being puked on to save ammo.

This video is retarded, You aren't comparing things scientifically. The Berserker can hold that just as easily with an AA12. There is no rule that says your Berserker can't use an AA12. Also there is no situation comparable to the clot spawner, which is why nobody cares what you think.

Nothing you just showed on that map was of any value. Every second you spent recording, editing, and rendering it was wasted.
 
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Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Did you... record your screen with a camcorder?

A lot of what you said is demonstrably wrong, totally failing to address what actually happens in game. The Eviscerator is not less effective than a lawnmower blade. Maybe if you're anesthetized or you grew up playing Call of Duty, but it basically instagibs all non-special enemies with both it's free melee and alternate attack; with it's ranged attack killing sirens husks and bloats instantly at almost any range but hey whatever, useless. Ability to mow down entire spawns around a corner, sure. I often choose not to use the fuel attack and just bash entire spawns of basic zeds to death, so whatever; maybe you're bad.



Melee vs bloat is a litmus test of skill in this game. If you smack them in the head, they don't puke on you. The real bushido begins where you plan on being puked on to save ammo.

This video is retarded, You aren't comparing things scientifically. The Berserker can hold that just as easily with an AA12. There is no rule that says your Berserker can't use an AA12. Also there is no situation comparable to the clot spawner, which is why nobody cares what you think.

Nothing you just showed on that map was of any value. Every second you spent recording, editing, and rendering it was wasted.
So, you'd rather spend 1500 dosh on the evis because it has a melee bash only slightly better than the crovel attack or pulv alt (Both of which have the same range and are faster, and the pulv stumbles)

And you can dunk a bloat or siren with the SG500, boomstick, medic shotgun.....basically anything really, even a nailgun shotgun to the face.

and since i normally run Pulv + Boomstick or Pulv + AK12 i don't even slightly fear anything less than a scrake or FP, maybe if i take a wrong turn and get cornered somewhere between a bloat and a husk on suicidal+ but even then it's not super difficult.

And no, the berserker cannot hold that as well with the AA12 as a support, the supports penetration lets them shoot through something like 8 small enemies at once, And the supports frag grenade (That uses the nailgun nail as it's fragment projectiles for some reason) can one-shot upwards of -FIFTY- enemies. Not to mention that the support also gets a reload speed skill so their AA12 with have less down time.

And "Being puked on to save ammo"? you really shouldn't ever get puked on for any reason, even at level 5-10 as a zerk, at a sprint you can put serious distance between yourself and a bloat or siren and then shoot it in the face, let alone full-on 25. On HOE Getting puked on even with 25% resistance is going to do far, far more damage than you want to try and heal back (Remember, you only get 50hp a heal while solo) so in online HoE or suicidal, ranging them is still a better option.

Sirens though, just stick on the edge of it's scream and pulv alt between them. No problems. One touch one kill.

And i've said it before and i'll say it again: The clot spawner isn't meant to be a realistic game situation, instead it's the best case of an adverse scenario (Being overwhelmed by enemies) since half the enemies die equally as easy (all 3 clot types, gorefasts, crawlers, stalkers and to a degree husks) if you can easily infinitely trash that situation without being overwhelmed, you've got it made.

If you want amusement, the berserker lasts the longest if i change it to 1 FP per second......But not with the Evisefailure.

All hail the true lord and savior that is the Pulverizer

(Working on a new video addressing comments/points that people have brought up)
 

Skater901

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 22, 2011
483
2
0
Only thing you need to prove Berserker is underpowered is this.

Berserker is meant to be the perk getting into the thick of the fight and soaking damage, it's meant to be tough. Yet the Berserker gets a paltry 5% damage reduction, while Commando and Support both get a 33% damage reduction in the form of an extra 50 health. (Granted Supports have to choose the extra 50 health but I don't anyone doesn't pick that.) Even assuming that the Berserker's 5% damage reduction is applied before armour, I suspect that it still has less damage reduction than the other perks I mentioned.

So what we have here is that the perk that pretty much has to get up close and personal with the enemies, and will likely be taking damage as a result, has LESS damage resistance than the perks that get to keep a safe distance from the enemies and use their ranged weapons to blow them away. I don't think I can say anything more to point out just how much of a game balance issue this is.
 

Ryno5660

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2009
1,955
7
0
Norfolk, UK
I'm not really touching this subject as it's a moot point by now anyway, things are going to be implemented which could fix it all.

I'll just say my observation is basically that he was designed to be mixed melee and ranged, judging by his weapon choices. His resistances seem okay for such gameplay; After all, those resistances are all 100% when the attack doesn't hit yes? So I guess he's supposed to stay at range like the others and get up close when required to or able to get out of a melee jam.

Problem is, in melee those resistances don't help much more than any of the other classes and the ranged weapons don't pack enough power to be used as consistently.

That and, personally, even if they were powerful enough I'd be losing health more than the perk was "designed" to as I'd be bored with nailguns and sawblades and have to use the hammer.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
I'm not really touching this subject as it's a moot point by now anyway, things are going to be implemented which could fix it all.

I'll just say my observation is basically that he was designed to be mixed melee and ranged, judging by his weapon choices. His resistances seem okay for such gameplay; After all, those resistances are all 100% when the attack doesn't hit yes? So I guess he's supposed to stay at range like the others and get up close when required to or able to get out of a melee jam.

Problem is, in melee those resistances don't help much more than any of the other classes and the ranged weapons don't pack enough power to be used as consistently.

That and, personally, even if they were powerful enough I'd be losing health more than the perk was "designed" to as I'd be bored with nailguns and sawblades and have to use the hammer.
Yeah. The problem is that he's apparently supposed to cover his melee lackings with range ability, but his ranged options are crap and the combined melee/ranged weapon is a nerf gun in disguise compared to even the AR15

I've been working on a follow-up, but with melee changes coming in the next update, i think i'm just going to hold off, and see what kind of changes Zerk gets overall beyond the new bash attacks.

I'd really still rather just see the zerk become a pure melee class again, it's what it was before the buzzsaw bow and it worked very well.
 

Ryno5660

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2009
1,955
7
0
Norfolk, UK
Yeah. The problem is that he's apparently supposed to cover his melee lackings with range ability, but his ranged options are crap and the combined melee/ranged weapon is a nerf gun in disguise compared to even the AR15

I've been working on a follow-up, but with melee changes coming in the next update, i think i'm just going to hold off, and see what kind of changes Zerk gets overall beyond the new bash attacks.

I'd really still rather just see the zerk become a pure melee class again, it's what it was before the buzzsaw bow and it worked very well.
I think it's certainly going the route of the melee. It's guessing, but it makes sense. The V key utility is a big-news change, and being able to block at full movespeed is another big melee change. I wonder how good my hammer will be in the future!
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
I think it's certainly going the route of the melee. It's guessing, but it makes sense. The V key utility is a big-news change, and being able to block at full movespeed is another big melee change. I wonder how good my hammer will be in the future!
The question is the V of pulv. We know you can push zeds away, but is that a stumble that has a cooldown? Or is that a "successful parry like" push back? Does it work on scrakes/FPs? We can never know until we have the update.

Let's hope it actually change the "assault refile berserker" meta.
 

chuy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 14, 2012
611
0
0
Jalisco, Guadalajara, M
Berserker is my main perk and i am lvl 24 legitimately aka no testmap. I play nothing but zerker. Literally the other perks are lvl 1. Beserker is fine for me. Its a melee based perk, of course its going to be harder than perks with real firearms. Mob of zombies and you got a melee weapon. Ya its going to be hard. I think the only thing zerker needs is his abilities tweaked, which is already confirmed by TW which i am glad. Ive played mostly in suicidal and its not that bad. I can surivive if only parry actually worked. Theres times in a round parry works and other times it stops working for whatever reason. If im against a scrake when it stops working, you could be sure im going to be dead. Plz fix that TW
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Berserker is my main perk and i am lvl 24 legitimately aka no testmap. I play nothing but zerker. Literally the other perks are lvl 1. Beserker is fine for me. Its a melee based perk, of course its going to be harder than perks with real firearms. Mob of zombies and you got a melee weapon. Ya its going to be hard. I think the only thing zerker needs is his abilities tweaked, which is already confirmed by TW which i am glad. Ive played mostly in suicidal and its not that bad. I can surivive if only parry actually worked. Theres times in a round parry works and other times it stops working for whatever reason. If im against a scrake when it stops working, you could be sure im going to be dead. Plz fix that TW
I rip on parry pretty hard for a reason, you only parry it seems, if you finish the blocking animation within a handful of frames right before you get hit.

Still moving into the full block animation? NOPE, no parry
Blocking for more than a quarter of a second before getting hit? No parry
Lagging at all? No parry

It really should be built where if you hit block at all right before you get hit, you parry. So long as you're not in an attack animation it works.

Yes, the parry window gets larger/easier, but it means that it compensates for lag and works more reliably (versus not working at all, especially online)
 

q3.railgun

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 30, 2015
590
4
0
I rip on parry pretty hard for a reason, you only parry it seems, if you finish the blocking animation within a handful of frames right before you get hit.

Still moving into the full block animation? NOPE, no parry
Blocking for more than a quarter of a second before getting hit? No parry
Lagging at all? No parry

It really should be built where if you hit block at all right before you get hit, you parry. So long as you're not in an attack animation it works.

Yes, the parry window gets larger/easier, but it means that it compensates for lag and works more reliably (versus not working at all, especially online)
Conversely I find the timing to be too generous. At least up to ~110 ping. From my experience there are no issues connecting a parry from 0f to about 10f as long as both the enemy hit and your parry connect during that time. To put it into an ascii notion:

|------------------enemy attack duration----------------------------|
|------------| < When block is pressed will parry.

That's what it feels like to me.

If I get hit, then it's 100% consistently cause I hit block too early. If I force myself to go later, I'll successfully parry a lot more often. However note the diagram above, that doesn't mean scrake finishes his first right to left swipe and I hit block and it parries. That means I hit block when the chainsaw swing is inside my shoulder.
 
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Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Conversely I find the timing to be too generous. At least up to ~110 ping. From my experience there are no issues connecting a parry from 0f to about 10f as long as both the enemy hit and your parry connect during that time. To put it into an ascii notion:

|------------------enemy attack duration----------------------------|
|------------| < When block is pressed will parry.

That's what it feels like to me.

If I get hit, then it's 100% consistently cause I hit block too early. If I force myself to go later, I'll successfully parry a lot more often. However note the diagram above, that doesn't mean scrake finishes his first right to left swipe and I hit block and it parries. That means I hit block when the chainsaw swing is inside my shoulder.
The problem there is also range. i've noticed that if i block right when he stops at me to swing i'll get hit before i go into block, resulting in a non-parry (and if i de-block, i can't re-block to parry the second swipe of that particular attack because block speed is slow as hell across the board)

if i'm in solo this isn't as much an issue, i just remember to take a step back as i hit the block button and the timing, online however you miss parries all over the place, even ZED Time activating can mess up the timing on a block.

Overall though, 10 frames (if 1/6th of a second is the actual parry window) is waaay too strict for KF. in something like a side-view 2d/3d fighter it would be too generous (see: counters in stuff like smash) but here, where you can't really easily place yourself at the exact right range from any given direction all the time, it feels a bit too off and picky.

Again though, we know changes are coming so it's wait and see at the moment.
 

q3.railgun

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 30, 2015
590
4
0
The problem there is also range. i've noticed that if i block right when he stops at me to swing i'll get hit before i go into block, resulting in a non-parry (and if i de-block, i can't re-block to parry the second swipe of that particular attack because block speed is slow as hell across the board)

if i'm in solo this isn't as much an issue, i just remember to take a step back as i hit the block button and the timing, online however you miss parries all over the place, even ZED Time activating can mess up the timing on a block.

Overall though, 10 frames (if 1/6th of a second is the actual parry window) is waaay too strict for KF. in something like a side-view 2d/3d fighter it would be too generous (see: counters in stuff like smash) but here, where you can't really easily place yourself at the exact right range from any given direction all the time, it feels a bit too off and picky.

Again though, we know changes are coming so it's wait and see at the moment.
Are you talking about when he's not raged and he's moving in or are you talking about when he's raged and he's doing his swipes or ballerina twirl?

For Unraged :
Scrake/Gorefast have an instant teleport to their target when they attack. So thinking logically is the first mistake. You can test this if you try to back away from the Scrake when he goes for the ranged dash in lunge. If you move away from him in a straight line he will hit you and visually and logically that makes no sense. You can test this again by moving forward right when he begins his attack and you'll notice you'll actually be walking into what feels like an invisible wall. The WYSIWYG does not apply here.

For Raged:
The best method here is go on the second swipe and not first. After he finishes his first swipe and is about to go into his second block and move in. If he's just at the right distance you'll 0f parry, if not you'll have a higher chance to fix yourself by closing the gap.

If ever you miss, just go around him and retry.
 

cheesellama

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 14, 2014
525
0
0
In hell
Zerethon, I agree with your original post for the most part, but I honestly don't think the eviscerator should be removed and replaced. It's a great weapon concept that I don't want to see leave. It deserves a great buff of course, but shouldn't be removed.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Zerethon, I agree with your original post for the most part, but I honestly don't think the eviscerator should be removed and replaced. It's a great weapon concept that I don't want to see leave. It deserves a great buff of course, but shouldn't be removed.
As i said, i'd rather see it replaced by it's 2 halves, rather than it's current all-in-one setup.

you have to severely gimp your ability to crush heavy targets to even carry the thing, and i'd much rather see it get buffed as both a psychotic giant gas blade (like the chainsaw was) and have the range part be buffed and made back into a buzzsaw bow, maybe with 2 ammo types.

i like the concept, but i hate the execution. if you buff it to the point where it's on-par with the pulv it would be overpowered because of the ranged ability, if you buff the range ability the revved blade becomes useless even more so, buff them both and it becomes too good overall.

My tune has been Make a chainsaw/larger blade version of it as a melee weapon, keeping the "Eviscerator" title. the melee bashes, and the revved up attack

Then just re-add the buzzsaw bow with the stats of the current ranged mode and possibly a second ammo type or even just a multiple blade alt-fire

It's a net gain overall, the balance is preserved by weight (ergo, not being able to carry both halves together) so you either take a melee T4 or a ranged T4 and your chaser of choice, giving you more "build options" during a game.