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"Why Even Try?" A demonstration of the berserker perks weakness.

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Then again, once I started playing support I also began to hate the zerker on my team. One just can't dodge and strafe Scrakes properly when someone constantly blocks your movement.

As a Commando I can't stand teams who block line of fire so much they soak up more bullets than the ZEDs. Berserker is once again the worst offender.

So depending on where and how you play having a decent ranged weapon still benefits Berserker.
Also true, but a good zerk really shouldn't be in the way, i generally (when i'm in the mood to hate myself) try to grab it's attention and then spin it's back to my team before i stumble it (so they get easy headshots and i don't block people.)

the main problem with melee for this is that you can't do a horizontal slash standing still, since the angle is based on movment, where like, in KF1, the primary fire swung one way, and the alt another, so if you needed to hit the group you could just alt-fire for the cone

Really, the best way to put it is "Throw the zerk back on the drawing board" because everything it does, other perks currently do twice as well...using it's weapons (Medics with the pulv can attest to this.)

Hell, Most 'zerk mains i know use stuff like the hunting shotgun paired with the pulv or one of the AR's because the nailgun is just "alright" and the evis takes away the weight you need to be a part of the glorius pulverizer master race.
 
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Escadin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 19, 2013
1,567
24
0
Also true, but a good zerk really shouldn't be in the way, i generally (when i'm in the mood to hate myself) try to grab it's attention and then spin it's back to my team before i stumble it (so they get easy headshots and i don't block people.)
Would like to play with you some time then xD


the main problem with melee for this is that you can't do a horizontal slash standing still, since the angle is based on movment, where like, in KF1, the primary fire swung one way, and the alt another, so if you needed to hit the group you could just alt-fire for the cone
I'm not a dedicated enough Berserker for this but shouldn't it be possible to input a split second of [A] or [D] at just the exact moment the game decides which kind of attack to launch? Who knows perhaps you can even "buffer" some attacks, if you know what I mean.

Really, the best way to put it is "Throw the zerk back on the drawing board" because everything it does, other perks currently do twice as well...using it's weapons (Medics with the pulv can attest to this.)
Arguably so. I doubt they'll resort to recreating the perk from scratch. :/
 

JoelFig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 25, 2015
571
0
0
I like the concept of the eviscerator; a range weapon that can melee. However, in being both it misses out on the crucial components of either, ADS and parry. I propose left-click blades, right-click ADS, mouse 3 parry and chainsaw as the bash function to get everything in one package. Maybe then it would be worthwhile as the ultimate berserker weapon. The penetration of the blades are good enough for everything below a scrake, have good stumble, and do a nice 480 base damage--that is nearly 10 scar rounds in one. The problem is that they do slash damage, which is the worst damage type to have against big guys. Scrakes, fps and Hans are all resistant to slash by 50%. I think the blades should do piercing damage instead while the chainsaw maintains slash, providing the versatility it desperately needs to excel in the later rounds.

For the nail gun, if we can get the burst mode to have a higher stumble than the single mode, that alone would make it great. I imagine a burst nail gun with a pulverizer keeping scrakes in check. Lastly, I'd like to see all berserker weapons benefit from his perk movement speed bonus.

The crovel and pulverizer are perfect as is.
 
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Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Would like to play with you some time then xD



I'm not a dedicated enough Berserker for this but shouldn't it be possible to input a split second of [A] or [D] at just the exact moment the game decides which kind of attack to launch? Who knows perhaps you can even "buffer" some attacks, if you know what I mean.


Arguably so. I doubt they'll resort to recreating the perk from scratch. :/
I'm easy enough to find on steam. I'm currently shoving my face to the grindstone to see if another few % of melee damage and some arguably useless skills will change my opinion of some of the weapons at max level. (spoiler: from playing with a friend, it won't, given that they also rage about them @ 20+)

And you'd -think- so, but trying to buffer it ala streetfighter inputs doesn't really work if there's any lag, and that's assuming the game will actually pay attention to the direction you're inputting (i've been strafing right and had it do a vertical swing before, despite the input)

And we're 4 perks in to early access. Changing some numbers and replacing or buffing one weapon really isn't that hard. Coding some new skills or passives might take a bit of time to implement and balance, but since the whole framework, graphical design, and the basic weapons already exist, it wouldn't be too hard to modify.

Hell, i'd be happy with a straight port of the KF1 chainsaw, low-poly model and odd animations included. you could wade face-first into a whole horde of normal (anything not a fleshpound or scrake) enemies with that thing and come out unscathed, giggling like a psychopath, and covered in the blood & entrails of your enemies. Even on HoE.

Good times were had...
 
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Shining Wolf

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 13, 2011
879
5
0
Giving a support hunting and aa12 on wave 1 doesn't work for any kind of balance test like this. Crovel start one of the better starts. This is also on normal with shuffle walk clots in a roof with one spawner.
 
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Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Giving a support hunting and aa12 on wave 1 doesn't work for any kind of balance test like this. Crovel start one of the better starts. This is also on normal with shuffle walk clots in a roof with one spawner.
I also used a T3 and T2 (Evis, pulv) on the berserker, on the same difficulty. Not sure where you were going with this.

for reference, on normal or higher i've done:

Support + AA12/Boomstick
Commando + SCAR/AK12
Medic + Medic Shotgun/Medic AR

All with zero issues, but i've done every combo with zerker and even on normal it gets overwhelmed.

i could go reset my perks to zero and remake this as a timelapse using that broken map, and from 0-25 the other perks wouldn't even have an issue, but zerker would start crap, end crap, and generally suck through it.

Here's my point:

In the ABSOLUTE MOST IDEAL CONDITIONS (Weakest clot, single spawn point, set rate, infinite ammo) Every single perk can cover it's backside all the way to HoE with no issues, ever.....except for berserker, it's mishmash of weapons, strange lag when using the combos, sub-par grenade, sub-par damage output, pathetic or broken higher level weapons, and massive lack of survivability and survival options means it simply can't keep pace.

Every other class when using it's "best" or highest "tier" weapon is simply a blender from level 0 to level 25, where berserker is more someone casually hurling cardboard ninja stars at a brick wall and FINALLY upgrades to plastic after a decade.

And lets not even get into the parry system. when it works, it works ok, but it only works on a single enemy, and it has a bit of lag (you actually have to be in the blocking pose right as they hit you to parry, if you're still animating into the block, you'll get hit) because of animation problems.

Long story short, we had one of the best and most well-rounded classes from KF1 that already had a fairly high skill ceiling, and it is now a pathetic shell of what it used to be, and it only works properly if not only you, but your ENTIRE TEAM plays flawlessly. Otherwise your stuns get wasted, your stumbles aren't capitalized on by your heavy hitters, and you're left watching the last half of a wave from the deathcam because after you did all that hard work to clear out around a scrake....

your teammates ended up raging it with grenades and then ran off.

Seriously. Berserker is in a TERRIBLE way right now and it's pathetic.
 

q3.railgun

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 30, 2015
590
4
0
Figured I'd hop in and bring in some points as my Zerker is the only class that's 25.

As some have stated the Crovel is one of the better starter weapons to have. When you aim with it A/D + M1 = multiple headshots and W + M1 = Precision headshots. All at the cost of no ammo. If an infinite number of Clots were moving your way and you're level 0, eventually when you run out of clips and need to reload something will grab you and you'll get overwhelmed whereas with a Crovel starter you'll still be left clicking until your finger starts to hurt.

Level 6 really isn't a fair comparison, especially if you're having a hard time hitting headshots with the Crovel. Once you have +20% attack speed, Crovel M1 even in an open area will just clear trash without any problems, of course you'll have to watch for Siren/Husks/Bloats and adjust and move but for the most part you can park yourself in an area and M1 to clear. Zerker endgame for me right now is a Crovel/Pulv combo with a decent team. Otherwise I'll roll a Medic Rifle and Pulv. I don't bother with the Ranged weapons and I can agree that those should belong to another class.

Parrying is not something that you rely on for trash mobs, you use that on Large and Hans. What's the point in trying to parry 5 clots when you can just D+M1 and kill all 5 of them in one swing.

Speaking of teamplay, try being the bait for your team to alleviate stress on them. MMO-style kite FPs, Scrakes out on your own so that your team can focus on trash and medium zeds then start killing FPs or at least the very least get 5 Pulv hits on them so they end up with 50% hp left. This is really underrated by your team but it will end up being really appreciated by the people that know what you're doing if you pull it off.
"Where the hell is the Zerker?", "Did our FP's not spawn?", "Why do we hear the screams but don't see them?", *Wave 5/7 ends* "Remember guys there's FP's that will start spawning next wave".

Lastly don't compare 1's Zerker to 2, that's not what they're meant to be by design. You have to aim with Melee in this game for it to be effective. No more holding M1 (Katana) for free headshots.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
See, you're also saying what i'm saying about the team.

if i play with a team of all friends, yeah, i can roll zerker no problem even on HoE and kite/stun/gimmick to my hearts content, because i know when i call out that i'm setting up to stagger the big bad boys, they'll be ready to focus him down as i blow his dumb face off with a pulv alt.

However, i do play with randoms, and when i do, i might as well cover myself in t-bone steaks and dance a funky jig because i'm dead meat. 1 in 100 times people will actually clear trash and set up to take out the big target, the other 99, the second a scrake or FP pops his face out, everyone group hugs him with nades, rages it, and half the team dies in a nanosecond.

The same goes for parrying, again, 1v1 on a large target it's great, it's totally useless if there's a slasher or higher anywhere nearby because what you block of the scrake, gets made up by booker T flailing his pointy little fingers at you while spanking you.

Mind you as well, i wasn't a katana baby in KF1, i was the chainsaw brandishing psychopath covered in high explosives. so seeing the "New" chainsaw T3 and how bad it is hurts me inside and makes me want to chainsaw off the bow arms and turbocharge the saw motor.

Overall, if we look at the 'zerk in a vacuum or a premade team, it's not nearly as terrible as it is in actual practice.

At least on the testing floor it doesn't have to worry about being suprised from other directions or killed by enemies it's teammate ticked off. :rolleyes:

Edit: I ALMOST FORGOT, the group hug support babies and hans, y'know, the ones who run up point blank with an AA12 and get stabbed to death instantly because they forgot or don't know that his melee attacks flinch the player and he has a PBAoE Gas blast? Pubbies are great at this game.
 
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oldmidget

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 8, 2015
1,506
92
0
to make the eviscerator good just tighten its hipfire alot or add an ADS(you could do this because 2 attacks are the same) and also boosting its RPM by 20-30%
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
TBH if most berserkers (that actually win a game with randoms) are going AA12 and play zerk ONLY for the EMP for ONLY scrakes..... the game is going HORRIBLY wrong.
 

q3.railgun

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 30, 2015
590
4
0
See, you're also saying what i'm saying about the team.

if i play with a team of all friends, yeah, i can roll zerker no problem even on HoE and kite/stun/gimmick to my hearts content, because i know when i call out that i'm setting up to stagger the big bad boys, they'll be ready to focus him down as i blow his dumb face off with a pulv alt.

However, i do play with randoms, and when i do, i might as well cover myself in t-bone steaks and dance a funky jig because i'm dead meat. 1 in 100 times people will actually clear trash and set up to take out the big target, the other 99, the second a scrake or FP pops his face out, everyone group hugs him with nades, rages it, and half the team dies in a nanosecond.
I'm also speaking for Pub games. I'm constantly out of sight out the team, the only reason why I go back to the team is to grab a Scrake or FP and then I go back to my side of the map. Every ZED time grants me 10 hp so health is not an issue. If a scrake is aggro'd and my team is dead that's only a slight problem since I can still outrun.

But you also have to consider that I've never seen another pub Zerker that plays in the same fashion that I do, whenever I see another pub Zerker I think well there's a waste of a teamslot.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
I'm also speaking for Pub games. I'm constantly out of sight out the team, the only reason why I go back to the team is to grab a Scrake or FP and then I go back to my side of the map. Every ZED time grants me 10 hp so health is not an issue. If a scrake is aggro'd and my team is dead that's only a slight problem since I can still outrun.

But you also have to consider that I've never seen another pub Zerker that plays in the same fashion that I do, whenever I see another pub Zerker I think well there's a waste of a teamslot.
At least for my region, all zerks only play it for EMP. But yeah, every single one of them bug the weight for AA12 + pluv. TBH if you one-shot sirens and able to deal with scrakes, there will not be too much trouble.

Well... but I still yet to have a random team that can survive HOE till wave 9-10. Because everyone joins @ scrake wave and NOBODY have money to share and half the team have T1 against scrakes. So someone dies, now you STILL have not enough money. The strats above still works on HOE but if you dont have the weapon to even decap the scrakes, we have a problem.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
I'm also speaking for Pub games. I'm constantly out of sight out the team, the only reason why I go back to the team is to grab a Scrake or FP and then I go back to my side of the map. Every ZED time grants me 10 hp so health is not an issue. If a scrake is aggro'd and my team is dead that's only a slight problem since I can still outrun.

But you also have to consider that I've never seen another pub Zerker that plays in the same fashion that I do, whenever I see another pub Zerker I think well there's a waste of a teamslot.
That's probably my problem, i generally try to stick with the team.

so i suppose i should go full on KF1 zerker and be all antisocial.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
I hate that as well, damn achievement hunters.



Don't go full emo on us ;)
i've joined on the FP waves and just bought the highest weapon i could + armor and been completely fine. Then again, i've played this long enough to know i can find ammo more easily than armor. and backup weapons basically grow on trees.

And i would never go that emo, i can always go find solace in the arms of my KF1 demolitions and my 390 million damage and hundreds of thousands of dead ZED's i built my castles moat from.
 

NNFX

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2014
156
0
0
Zerk is fine, stop crying because it`s not as op as in KF1.
I totally disliked zerk in KF1 because it was so op and boring and I was very suprised and happy as I tryed this new Zerk and noticed how well balanced it is now.

The only true Thing you complaining Guys said about Zerk is, that Tier 2 and Tier 4 should get a LITTLE buff.
Also I wouldn`t complain about changed Skills even though I`m fine with them as they are.
But giving him more Strenght, Resistance, HP or Speed would just result in a terrible op Perk just as it was in KF1.

As it is now, Zerk is not the
"I`m going solo till my Team is dead and finish the Rest on my own, Perk."
And thats a good Thing.
Zerk needs his Team, especially Medics now, just as every other Perk needs different Perks to compensate the own certain Weakness.

Thats how you get a good co-op Game.

Btw, just yesterday I played a Game on suicidal with zerk 25 using only the shovel+ medicgun and my Team had another Zerk, a Commando, 2 Medics and a Support and we did very well. ;)

Stop complaining about it but learn how to play it!
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
I'm also speaking for Pub games. I'm constantly out of sight out the team, the only reason why I go back to the team is to grab a Scrake or FP and then I go back to my side of the map. Every ZED time grants me 10 hp so health is not an issue. If a scrake is aggro'd and my team is dead that's only a slight problem since I can still outrun.

But you also have to consider that I've never seen another pub Zerker that plays in the same fashion that I do, whenever I see another pub Zerker I think well there's a waste of a teamslot.
Zerk is fine, stop crying because it`s not as op as in KF1.
I totally disliked zerk in KF1 because it was so op and boring and I was very suprised and happy as I tryed this new Zerk and noticed how well balanced it is now.
-snip-
As it is now, Zerk is not the
"I`m going solo till my Team is dead and finish the Rest on my own, Perk."
And thats a good Thing.
Zerk needs his Team, especially Medics now, just as every other Perk needs different Perks to compensate the own certain Weakness.

-snip-
Stop complaining about it but learn how to play it!
y'know, when probably the best solo player in the game is talking about doing just that as berserker, and having just gone off and tested it in a pub game, actually playing like KF1 with a combo like pulverizer + AR works pretty stupidly well if you just don't care about your teams well-being.

By no means does that mean the perk is fine, but the thing is as i harped about in my perks thread, that it should never be a case of damage vs. resistances, rather it should come down to mechanics.

Because at the end of the day when it's just M2 then M1 x4 repeat ad nauseam until you win or die, you lose some of that engagement.

Besides, go play KF1 berserker without using any DLC weapons (like the insanely powerful Daxe) solo, on HoE, and tell me how well you do.
 

poosh

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 6, 2011
3,404
326
83
Berserker's weapons are fine. But perk totally sucks. Most of the skills are ridiculous and require you to take damage beforehand. But you really can't. Because even at level 25 berserker stays with 100hp and 100 armor max. While commabdo and support have 150hp and medic has 120hp and 175 armor! For example, it is far more efficient abd safer to use pulveriser as medic rather then berserker. Or use shovel as support: if thing go bad, then just switch to AA12 and clear the room out.

My suggestions to balance things:
  • Lower mecic armor bonus from 3 to 2 per level (175 → 150)
  • Give berserker 3hp per level, i.e. 175hp at level 25. Maybe a perk skill to boost health to 250 without ability to wear armor as a tradeoff. I prefer this over damage resistance, because it forces berserker to stick with the team rather than going solo kite.
  • Get rid of those "lose health to apply" skills. Only such skill that can stay is no speed loss at low health. There are plenty of alternative skills suggested by community, such as ripose.