"Why Even Try?" A demonstration of the berserker perks weakness.

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/
  • Weve updated the Tripwire Privacy Notice under our Policies to be clearer about our use of customer information to come in line with the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) rules that come into force today (25th May 2018). The following are highlights of our changes:


    We've incorporated the relevant concepts from the GDPR including joining the EU and Swiss Privacy Shield framework. We've added explanations for why and how Tripwire processes customer data and the types of data that we process, as well as information about your data protection rights.



    For more information about our privacy practices, please review the new Privacy Policy found here: https://tripwireinteractive.com/#/privacy-notice

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Every single dissenting opinion on Zerk needing some work is followed up by "I hate zerk and it shouldn't be OP like it was in KF1".

Problem with that is...Every perk was op. Sharpshooter could easily kill scrakes with Xbow headshots. Demo had crazy pipe bomb things to do on the patriarch round. I don't see how your opinion should count if you clearly are biased against berserker being even slightly viable at high difficulties.

A Crapload of people also forget that Zerk wasn't OP until all the one-shot capable weapons got added that worked on HOE

After zed's got teleporting for a while in KF1 zerk was considered underpowered, and back then i had to make a vid proving that you could still gimmick stuff like gorefasts/scrakes/FP's using your speed and the chainsaw.

Now everyone goes "Oh, KF1 Zerk is OP" Because it has the DAxe/Claymore/Scythe/Etc

Now we have no really good swing one way or the other.
 

N2MC

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2015
69
0
0
bit of zerk and feel immortal... until the medic runs off to play his solo rambo simulator and leaves me to die :(

...

Hanging with the group without a dedicated medic is a great way to have allies drag zeds into your retreat paths and kill you. And everyone seems to love camping in dead-ends...

I like how you praise Zerk in your post and say that you die without a Medic.
ANY perk is great/broken with a Medic healing them nonstop. Zerk is viable only with a Medic, and without? Well, as you said, you die.
How is Zerk considered "fine" if one other perk is essential to your existence?

Now everyone goes "Oh, KF1 Zerk is OP" Because it has the DAxe/Claymore/Scythe/Etc

Now we have no really good swing one way or the other.

I will admit I haven't played KF1 during its early days, but I have played it enough to know that no DLC weapons (or "new" weapons) were necessary at all to clear HoE. I started playing at some time after level 6 perks were added, but my friend and I have cleared a lot of HoE maps with him using only a fire axe and a LAR. The Scythe can be considered a good upgrade, but from what I've seen it sure as hell isn't necessary.
Zerk's strengths were not his weapons, although they sure helped. Stunlocking/kiting were mechanics that helped him, very high movement speed and DR helped him further.
 
Last edited:

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
I like how you praise Zerk in your post and say that you die without a Medic.
ANY perk is great/broken with a Medic healing them nonstop. Zerk is viable only with a Medic, and without? Well, as you said, you die.
How is Zerk considered "fine" if one other perk is essential to your existence?



I will admit I haven't played KF1 during its early days, but I have played it enough to know that no DLC weapons (or "new" weapons) were necessary at all to clear HoE. I started playing at some time after level 6 perks were added, but my friend and I have cleared a lot of HoE maps with him using only a fire axe and a LAR. The Scythe can be considered a good upgrade, but from what I've seen it sure as hell isn't necessary.
Zerk's strengths were not his weapons, although they sure helped. Stunlocking/kiting were mechanics that helped him, very high movement speed and DR helped him further.

Pre-DLC the chainsaw could chain-flinch heavy mobs, and aside from some random oddities you could -KNIFE- a fleshpound to death if you were good enough at timing his attacks. i took a break for a while after stuff like the FNFAL was added so i missed a few of the more broken toys.

More or less, stuff like the DAxe is stupidly powerful, and they're not "Necessary" to clear it, they just make it easier and put the perks power level even higher than it already was when played at a high skill level.
 
Last edited:

Rattler

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 20, 2009
2,816
313
83
Problem with that is...Every perk was op.

Yes, we should be equally weak, rather than everybody being op for himself. The game is advertised as COOP shooter after all. Playing with others doesn't make it COOPerative automaticaly as long as you don't rely on each other.
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,071
881
0
Sheffield, England
Yes, we should be equally weak, rather than everybody being op for himself. The game is advertised as COOP shooter after all. Playing with others doesn't make it COOPerative automaticaly as long as you don't rely on each other.

I remember I used to argue that point constantly through the evolution of KF1. I stopped playing the game for like a year and was still in the forums anyway, trying in vain to get the direction of KF switched back around. I remember I became rather bitter about it to be honest ;)

Finally when TWI finally announced they had no intention of changing the Zerker I just rage quit the forums entirely and accepted that KF was no longer aimed at audiences like myself. While I respect TWI's work, I had to bite the bullet and move on.

KF2 on the other hand seems to be trying to capture its "kick your arse until you're wearing your buttocks as a hat" mentality again. Long may it live ;)
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Yes, we should be equally weak, rather than everybody being op for himself. The game is advertised as COOP shooter after all. Playing with others doesn't make it COOPerative automaticaly as long as you don't rely on each other.

If every perk was as weak as the berserker, the game would be unplayable

Thankfully, i don't think Tripwire would do something that egregiously stupid.

I remember I used to argue that point constantly through the evolution of KF1. I stopped playing the game for like a year and was still in the forums anyway, trying in vain to get the direction of KF switched back around. I remember I became rather bitter about it to be honest ;)

Finally when TWI finally announced they had no intention of changing the Zerker I just rage quit the forums entirely and accepted that KF was no longer aimed at audiences like myself. While I respect TWI's work, I had to bite the bullet and move on.

KF2 on the other hand seems to be trying to capture its "kick your arse until you're wearing your buttocks as a hat" mentality again. Long may it live ;)

The thing with this is, if we avoid all the BS with DLC weapons and such, and each perk was equally effective at dealing with enemies in it's own way, we wouldn't have a problem.

A Field medic shouldn't not do damage just because the perk was designed to heal, because at the end of the game, everyones damage has to matter equally as much

This isn't world of warcraft. It's a shooter with pseudo-classes, and if one of those classes is weak, having it on your team hurts you a lot.

Again, i'm not asking for any of the super overpowered BS from KF1, what i'm asking for is for the berserker to be a melee-focused perk that can survive in melee range on his own merits when played well

As has been said to death, if you don't have a medic and you try to be a team player, you're done. it's easier to lead off heavy targets and blow them up without interference because it's the only way to be sure someone won't mess up your patterning or kiting. i can confirm this, but that shouldn't be the case.

If you want a real challenge, do the whole round, all 10 waves, on HOE, with nothing but the 9mm and your class grenade and knife. That oughta be enough challenge for you if you want every class to be absolute trash.
 

q3.railgun

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 30, 2015
590
4
0
This isn't world of warcraft.

Did one mention an MMO? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdQGorgjP4I
If this works with other players then yea, I could see it as a MMO. Let me kite while others nuke, it is a coop game afterall.

Some solo runs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSk2BIA8Xlo - Hard Syringeless level 0 run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-3AIctbqgQ - Windowless HoE Paris.

Also earlier today on Suicidal (yea it's not HoE), I maintained aggro'd of all 4 FPs and killed them solo while the team just had to manage with trash/medium and a couple of scrakes on Wave 10. With what people were saying in chat, I'm sure their opinion of Zerker changed slightly.

It's not the perk that's the problem, it's that the game is still young and the way the game is designed right now the advantage goes to the AI unless the player knows how to beat it. Hate the player not the game.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
It's not the perk that's the problem, it's that the game is still young and the way the game is designed right now the advantage goes to the AI unless the player knows how to beat it. Hate the player not the game.

I'm still going to hate on the perk if i have to resort to glitching out the AI with oddball paths or pseudo-exploits (if not outright exploits) rather than just dunking it by being able to out-play it.

Any other perk can just kite on normal paths or with simple things like jumping over railings and well-timed movement, but zerk has to completely rely on breaking the AI or it's pathing.

Yes, i can do it, but i hate having to resort to it.
 

q3.railgun

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 30, 2015
590
4
0
I'm still going to hate on the perk if i have to resort to glitching out the AI with oddball paths or pseudo-exploits (if not outright exploits) rather than just dunking it by being able to out-play it.

Any other perk can just kite on normal paths or with simple things like jumping over railings and well-timed movement, but zerk has to completely rely on breaking the AI or it's pathing.

Yes, i can do it, but i hate having to resort to it.

If any other perk can do it, Medic or Zerker can do it better with the +25% movement speed. The syringeless run was glitchless btw. After all this if you're still going to hate on it then hate away. Myself and many others (just from reading this thread) have no problem with the class as it currently stands.
 

Senario

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 10, 2015
100
0
0
Yes, we should be equally weak, rather than everybody being op for himself. The game is advertised as COOP shooter after all. Playing with others doesn't make it COOPerative automaticaly as long as you don't rely on each other.

Did you read my comment? Don't think you did. I wasn't saying nerf all the other classes. I was pointing out that in KF1 people's complaints about berserker being OP conveniently ignores all the other stuff the other perks can do that is very good.

There is a whole rock paper scissors analogy here somewhere but honestly I can't be bothered when you don't read.

So cut the sarcasm.

My stance on Co Op is that there really isn't as much of a concern with giving each class something really good. In a competitive game you would nerf to balance. But in a Co Op game you try to make everything match up to a certain benchmark. Currently I would say that benchmark is medic/Support.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
If any other perk can do it, Medic or Zerker can do it better with the +25% movement speed. The syringeless run was glitchless btw. After all this if you're still going to hate on it then hate away. Myself and many others (just from reading this thread) have no problem with the class as it currently stands.

TBH its on hard.... on hard its like KF1, you are outrunning all zed BY A LOT, which means you can avoid damage. You can beat a certain difficulty or complete a challenge doesnt mean the perk is balanced.

It also have nothing to do with the game is young or not. If you cant deal with the weakest enemies effectively, there is a balance issue. I did a no trader run on HOE and get to the boss without much trouble in KF1 too, now can I say the knife is powerful enough on its own because I "have no problem with the weapon as it currently stands"? Should we nerf all melee weapons to the level of knife because "someone can beat HOE with it"?

Yes, KF2 is still beatable with berserker, but it doesnt mean its fine because clearly you can beat it easier with other perks. Right now in a multiplayer game, berserker is only good for the EMP nade. And zerkers go AA12 anyway because pluv is not a effective weapon against scrakes, and parry/blocking is broken, and scrake is the only problem most teams run into. Also, solo is solo.

Did you read my comment? Don't think you did. I wasn't saying nerf all the other classes. I was pointing out that in KF1 people's complaints about berserker being OP conveniently ignores all the other stuff the other perks can do that is very good.

There is a whole rock paper scissors analogy here somewhere but honestly I can't be bothered when you don't read.

So cut the sarcasm.

My stance on Co Op is that there really isn't as much of a concern with giving each class something really good. In a competitive game you would nerf to balance. But in a Co Op game you try to make everything match up to a certain benchmark. Currently I would say that benchmark is medic/Support.

Well yeah, in KF1 times, people said zerk was op because its too easy for them to solo, and people claimed that only zerkers can solo because THEY can only beat solo with zerk/medic. But what was really happening was solo can be beaten by any perks. Yes, zerks makes everything a cake walk, you will be doing even better if you rambo in multiplayer, which is where we have a problem with KF1 zerk.

People then proceed to ignore that support can deal with every zeds a lot faster than berserker, and any other perk actually kill the zeds without using 15 minutes per wave to kite. If you stick with the team you are not doing much really, everything dies before they get into melee range, you camp around a corner just to get instant gib by 5 gorefasts. That was the reason why zerkers rather go rambo. That way you are actually doing something instead of watching zeds die before they reach you, or get gib by unlucky spawns because you are not moving.

As in KF2, commando do as well, if not better than support. But you need really good aim (just like KF1 SS).
 
Last edited:

Rattler

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 20, 2009
2,816
313
83
Did you read my comment? Don't think you did. I wasn't saying nerf all the other classes. I was pointing out that in KF1 people's complaints about berserker being OP conveniently ignores all the other stuff the other perks can do that is very good.

There is a whole rock paper scissors analogy here somewhere but honestly I can't be bothered when you don't read.

So cut the sarcasm.

My stance on Co Op is that there really isn't as much of a concern with giving each class something really good. In a competitive game you would nerf to balance. But in a Co Op game you try to make everything match up to a certain benchmark. Currently I would say that benchmark is medic/Support.

I did but the other perks, hm, lets say that they have to be somehow exploited (thats not the right word tbh) to be op. The zerk is op playing by himself and in a group with other zerks. On the other hand supp for example is OP if you are playing with 5-6 players team of supp. Alone supp can't deal the same way the zerk can in HoE game. Yes, its doable, and its doable with all perks but they will struggle, not all the time they will. As zerk, you will kite through this sucker like a bulldozer. You can't be grabbed, you outrun eveything, you don't have to reload, you are superior. Thats why people *****es about the zerk. Yes we see that the other perks are doing fine but its not that big of a difference compared to the zerk. One zerk is still op and can do perfectly fine alone in 6 players HoE game. One comm or supp, can't do it the same way, they can't run around doing their stuff.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,849
336
0
I did but the other perks, hm, lets say that they have to be somehow exploited (thats not the right word tbh) to be op. The zerk is op playing by himself and in a group with other zerks. On the other hand supp for example is OP if you are playing with 5-6 players team of supp. Alone supp can't deal the same way the zerk can in HoE game. Yes, its doable, and its doable with all perks but they will struggle, not all the time they will. As zerk, you will kite through this sucker like a bulldozer. You can't be grabbed, you outrun eveything, you don't have to reload, you are superior. Thats why people *****es about the zerk. Yes we see that the other perks are doing fine but its not that big of a difference compared to the zerk. One zerk is still op and can do perfectly fine alone in 6 players HoE game. One comm or supp, can't do it the same way, they can't run around doing their stuff.

Are you talking about KF1? Because in KF1 people dont struggle at all. Suuport can HSG>2-3 nades>HSG to kill FPs, unless you call this exploit because of the hit boxes then playing support alone is exploiting in KF1. Even if you dont use katana one shot for scrake, it still only takes two HSG shots to blow away a scrake. And you have enough ammo with the AA12 to kill trashes. And you have a katana.... so yeah, you kill 10 times faster than a zerk.

Demo only have problem against scrakes (and they still kills them without trouble, it just use too much ammo compare to other perks). Commando deal with scrakes without problem because they dont rage at that stupid 90% and takes a lot less shots to drop compre to kf2. Oh, and I dont like having two basically the same guns so I roll M32 with AK, now FP is not much of a trouble. SS...it depends on how good your aiming is, so its what "doable with all perks but they will struggle" comes into play. Firebug is... bad in this regard.

So... no. KF1 Zerk only OP if you rambo or play offline. If you are sticking with the team you get out class by a lot of perks.
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Pretty sure since he left out the sharp he was referring to KF2, Any balance argument in KF1 is nullified by the fact that the sharpshooter exists.

At any rate, there's basically 2 camps in this argument:

Camp 1: "Zerk is too weak, relying too much on gimmicks or being healed"

Camp 2: "Zerk is fine because i can gimmick or exploit around the glaring weaknessess"

As far as the camp 2 (Anti-buff) arguments, we've been over every point (How medics do it better using the same weapons, to how half the zerk weapons are totally worthless and more)

And since people complained (as expected) about it not being 25, i've been forcing myself to play zerk on every difficulty endlessly. Currently almost 16.

And it still hasn't gotten better, if you even get SLIGHTLY unlucky with ZED pathing you're pretty much boned. Especially on Sui/HOE. Having a bloat cover for his husk buddy around a corner and getting puked on + flamer'd is a moment worthy of a little cry while you wait for your emp to go off.
 

JoelFig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 25, 2015
571
0
0
Pretty sure since he left out the sharp he was referring to KF2, Any balance argument in KF1 is nullified by the fact that the sharpshooter exists.

At any rate, there's basically 2 camps in this argument:

Camp 1: "Zerk is too weak, relying too much on gimmicks or being healed"

Camp 2: "Zerk is fine because i can gimmick or exploit around the glaring weaknessess"

As far as the camp 2 (Anti-buff) arguments, we've been over every point (How medics do it better using the same weapons, to how half the zerk weapons are totally worthless and more)

And since people complained (as expected) about it not being 25, i've been forcing myself to play zerk on every difficulty endlessly. Currently almost 16.

And it still hasn't gotten better, if you even get SLIGHTLY unlucky with ZED pathing you're pretty much boned. Especially on Sui/HOE. Having a bloat cover for his husk buddy around a corner and getting puked on + flamer'd is a moment worthy of a little cry while you wait for your emp to go off.

Add my camp: "Our current zerk's skills and weapons can be improved without a complete redesign."
 

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
Add my camp: "Our current zerk's skills and weapons can be improved without a complete redesign."

Improving them well -Would- Require a redesign. since improving the weapons number or attack wise still leaves a half dozen (Out of ten) broken or moderately useless skills and some still unsatisfying weapons.

Like, the evis, i beat the crap out of this thing all the time, but i don't get this:

Fire mode 1 (Primary): Spinning sawblade, gravity affected, only penetrates 2 clots or seems to stop dead on big targets, good damage but awkward to get full value from

Fire mode 2 (Alt fire): Spinning sawblade with worse damage per second than any random normal melee (Lawnmower blade included) and a cone tinier than the model. The weapon is nearly the size of a player with a sawblade half as large or so as your torso, but it's damage cone is basically a straight line right at the tip. The design of the model to incorporate this function ironically nerfs the crap out of it.

Fire mode 3 ("Ironsights" button): Close-range quick stab, it can stumble some targets or drop a lone medium enemy, doesn't work as a parry, damage is moderate.

So it's a ranged weapon that only works from the hip, it's a chainsaw replacement with low damage and an akward hitbox due to it's short range and the weapons size (you have to be humping your targets leg on your screen to hit them, despite the thing being like 5 feet long) and instead of ironsights, you get the ability to poke people with it

...what? in the middle of slapping the thing together did the intern forget to duct-tape a webcam to the top or something? you can hit targets moderately far off with a bit of luck and practice but still, aiming it is a chore due to it's bulk.

i'd seriously rather have a scrake-esque chainsaw run by fuel with just the heavy attack and the rev hold attack as fire modes with a decent cone, and the eviscerator as a purely ranged thing.

Some ideas though (Like the pulverizer) work perfectly well as is (hence, it's popularity) It's primary attack range is good, it's decently fast, the damage isn't bad and the alt fire shotgun blast/explosive swing thing is amazing for hard targets. it's perfect all round, ironically, much like the crovel and lawnmower blade.

Which again, leaves me at my point that the range weapons feel pointless next to other offerings, due to the current off-perk viability of things like the medic shotgun, the boomstick, the AK12/SCAR & AA12.
 

JoelFig

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 25, 2015
571
0
0
Improving them well -Would- Require a redesign. since improving the weapons number or attack wise still leaves a half dozen (Out of ten) broken or moderately useless skills and some still unsatisfying weapons.
Yes, I will agree some skills are too lousy to not be replaced. Others can be salvaged, same as the weapons.
Again, not a complete redesign of the perk.

Like, the evis, i beat the crap out of this thing all the time, but i don't get this:

Fire mode 1 (Primary): Spinning sawblade, gravity affected, only penetrates 2 clots or seems to stop dead on big targets, good damage but awkward to get full value from
Will penetrate up to 3 clots and strike a 4th when aimed at their heads. Not penetrating a scrake makes sense to me.
More on the damage below.

Fire mode 2 (Alt fire): Spinning sawblade with worse damage per second than any random normal melee (Lawnmower blade included) and a cone tinier than the model. The weapon is nearly the size of a player with a sawblade half as large or so as your torso, but it's damage cone is basically a straight line right at the tip. The design of the model to incorporate this function ironically nerfs the crap out of it.
So
all this needs is a damage and AoE buff ? Then it will probably feel like the chainsaw you want, unless you are after the aesthetics.

Fire mode 3 ("Ironsights" button): Close-range quick stab, it can stumble some targets or drop a lone medium enemy, doesn't work as a parry, damage is moderate.
The bash function on the evis is also redundant. I suggest replacing them both for an "iron sight function"
with better accuracy and a parry.

So it's a ranged weapon that only works from the hip, it's a chainsaw replacement with low damage and an akward hitbox due to it's short range and the weapons size (you have to be humping your targets leg on your screen to hit them, despite the thing being like 5 feet long) and instead of ironsights, you get the ability to poke people with it

...what? in the middle of slapping the thing together did the intern forget to duct-tape a webcam to the top or something? you can hit targets moderately far off with a bit of luck and practice but still, aiming it is a chore due to it's bulk.
See suggestions above.


i'd seriously rather have a scrake-esque chainsaw run by fuel with just the heavy attack and the rev hold attack as fire modes with a decent cone, and the eviscerator as a purely ranged thing.
You can have both in one with some simple buffs.


Some ideas though (Like the pulverizer) work perfectly well as is (hence, it's popularity) It's primary attack range is good, it's decently fast, the damage isn't bad and the alt fire shotgun blast/explosive swing thing is amazing for hard targets. it's perfect all round, ironically, much like the crovel and lawnmower blade.
No argument here. It's currently the only other explosive weapon next to grenades and it can parry. Pretty essential features for fleshpounding, and the stumble keeps it effective with scrakes as well. Evis has no parry and has the worst damage type for scrakes, fps and Hans. Let's fix that.

Which again, leaves me at my point that the range weapons feel pointless next to other offerings, due to the current off-perk viability of things like the medic shotgun, the boomstick, the AK12/SCAR & AA12.
We actually never get to see the full damage of the evis blades because slash damage does half damage to big zeds, and everything below them gets decapped with a single blade anyway.
I'm sure, if given a level playing field, it could compete with those off-perks well enough.

My reply in bold. All of this is from the post I made on a previous page.
 
Last edited:

Zerethon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 5, 2009
338
4
0
Ohio
My reply in bold. All of this is from the post I made on a previous page.

I see where you're coming from for the most part, but the problem is all the modes are useful if they just worked well.

it's why i keep saying to split it, a chainsaw with properly high damage and AOE strapped onto a bow capable of piercing through a crowd of enemies (it's a straight line, not a shotgun blast, it could do with double it's penetration and it still wouldn't be an issue because the blade is so small) WITH the stumble-causing melee hit? it's a bit overpowered.

BUT, if we split the modes into a melee/constant tick weapon and a ranged weapon, you can then balance them both better in the long run (we wouldn't end up with a one-weapon-beats-all situation again).

Ideally, add another ranged weapon at the crovel level spot, and make it part of the ammo skill (If you start with bonus ammo, you start with it over the crovel)

So you have crovel -> Pulv -> Saw and New weapon -> Nailgun -> Evis ranged

Which is a perkless solution to my "Just remove ranged from the zerk and make it it's own perk" idea.

So a berserker could then mix & match weapons better to fit the map and situation..