The power of rifles rounds

[Cyper]

The damage taken from the bolts should not be decreased.
This would mean that if I clear a house and runs into an enemy, quickly shoting him in the stomach, he would just spray me with his Mp40 like nothing happend before I was even able to reload my bolt.

This makes the bolt COMPLETELY useless in close combat. 350m away someone peeks out from a corner and I shot him in the stomach. What happens?

Nothing. He just goes in behind his cover and use bandage. Voil

 

[Bossk]

The issue right now is that many rifle rounds, instead of doing waht Panzer Jager says above, somehow get down-graded to bandagable wounds. TWI (or at least some of them) are aware of it on their end, so we're hoping that in the end, any rifle round you take above the waist and not in the arm will end you.

I have noticed something similar with the LMG's. It seems that firing from the hip radically downgrades the damage. There have been several instances where I have had two to three hits in rapid succession on a close target and they somehow survive.

 

[Wtattearp]

do you know what you are talking about those old military rifles are much more powerful than standard issue assault rifles today....

 

[Fishsticks]

There is a lot more stuff than just heart in upper body that can cause instant or very nearly instant death.

Big arteries are one. Getting hit in aorta is pretty much the same as getting hit in heart. Carotid arteries deliver the blood to brain and if they get hit it leads to instant blood pressure drop in brain and unconsciousness followed by death. Hitting subclavian artery should also result in unconsciousness in couple a seconds. Descending aorta is one of the biggest arteries in our bodies and hitting it should be rapid death too.

Here's an image stolen from Wikipedia:

Remember that these arteries can be ruptured by bullet passing nearby (temporal cavity).

In addition to those arteries there are lot's of instant kill/disable areas in our upper body. Separating spine causes paralysis, getting hit in lungs by large caliber bullet makes you as combat effective as dead body. Both liver and spleen have ****load of blood vessels and getting hit in those should cause bleeding to death.

Another picture stolen:

Pretty much everything above the pancreas is instant kill/disable zone.

Good post. A large caliber, high velocity round hitting the upper body is devestating. I would also like to point out that the temporary cavity with high velocity rounds can lead to a temporary cavity 6-8 inches in diameter. Meaning anything in that vicinity is turned to pulp. Also any distruption with the lungs usually results in interrupting the electric impulses between it and the heart resulting in instant cardiac arrest. The damage from a low velocity pistol cartridge from a 9mm Mp40 or 7.62.25 PPsh is NOTHING compared to that of a rifle round.

 

[Warsaurus]

To be completely honest, when talking about rifle caliber ammunition, the question is more, 'What shot Wouldn't kill you?' Considering the game focuses on incapacitation as death, then realistically, you would die from almost every single rifle shot.

The Torso: Aside from some fat on the sides, almost everything is vital. You wouldn't die instantly, no, but give it 4-8 minutes and you're a dead man. Considering nobody wants to lay on the ground moaning for such a time, instant-death is expected, and slow-death acceptable in a certain % of cases. But by no means would you survive to fight on.

Legs: I've been hit by a baseball while running before, not only did it knock me down, but I could hardly walk for an hour or so. That's a baseball...Your character just got hit by a rifle bullet. Not only did it severely hinder your movement by pain alone, there's now a hole in your leg...probably a very large hole. Standing, let alone running, would be impossible. Therefore, unless you want to lay on the ground (This is becoming a theme isn't it?) for 10-60 minutes (You CAN survive this wound..but again, incapacitation=Death) your character is dead.

Arms: Generally considered a 'survivable' wound. But Survival doesn't mean you can keep fighting. You have a hole in your arm, shoulder, hand. Try aiming a rifle with any degree of accuracy and then, actually dealing with the recoil of a shot. (It's going to hurt...) Perhaps your left hand could take such a wound and you could keep fighting (Remember though, there ARE vital arteries/vessels in your arm...So survival isn't guaranteed) but that's the only chance. So, unless Tripwire wants to accurately represent the 'inaccuracy' caused by a rather large gaping hole in your arm, then I think it should be considered incapacitation, and therefore death.

The human body can 'Survive' a lot, several bullet wounds to be accurate if they are in the right spots. However surviving, and fighting are two entirely different things. We do hear stories of men being shot by rifles 1,2, even 3 or more times and continuing to fight on regardless. But those are such rare cases that if you were to accurately portray the numbers, would happen once every 20-40 games.

So as of right now, I would prefer if the lethality of rifle bullets to increase dramatically. Because, while most bullets may not kill a man, they will almost ALWAYS incapacitate him.

**Disclaimer: I'm not counting any 'grazing' wounds. As #1 I'm not sure they model those in-game. And #2 because they are so variable in their damage it's impossible to really use them as examples.**

 

[aop]

Any hit to bones should be pretty much incapacitating since the limb hit ceases functioning and combination of damage made by the bullet and bone fragments causes massive bleeding. You can check out gunshot wounds from Google Image search, rifle caliber hit's to bone are pretty nasty.

I remember one site that had hundreds of pictures taken by American medics in WWII, I think it would fit this discussion pretty well.

edit: Found atleast some of them:
http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/default.htm

 

[theta123]

A hit from a bolt action rifle in WW2 pretty much ment you where out of combat. These rounds where all hard hitting, even from the 6.5mm calibre's. If you where hit, you pretty much had to be withdrawn from battle

A 7.62x54R russian round produced around 3600 joules on impact while a 7.92x57 produced 3800 joules on average. That power will stop you
(ingame performance should still be simular. infact a mosin nagant was more accurate on long range then a K98k due to much longer barrel lenght)

For comparision, a WW2 era 9x19mm parabellum produced 500 joules on average...

 

[aop]

Good post. A large caliber, high velocity round hitting the upper body is devestating. I would also like to point out that the temporary cavity with high velocity rounds can lead to a temporary cavity 6-8 inches in diameter. Meaning anything in that vicinity is turned to pulp. Also any distruption with the lungs usually results in interrupting the electric impulses between it and the heart resulting in instant cardiac arrest. The damage from a low velocity pistol cartridge from a 9mm Mp40 or 7.62.25 PPsh is NOTHING compared to that of a rifle round.

Actually that's not true. It's called "temporary cavity" for a reason. Yeah, the tissue is subjected to huge shock but it doesn't mean the said tissue is destroyed. I think the misconceptions about temporary cavity are caused by use of ballistic gelatin that has similar density as living tissue but it's nowhere near as strong or elastic as muscle tissue for example.

I'd like to remind again that human body doesn't have "health points" and even .22lr is lethal if it hit's the right spot so underestimating "power" of some rounds (pistol caliber) just because some rounds (rifle caliber) have much more energy is not wise. Remember that during WWII body armor was rarity and thus pistol caliber rounds were far more dangerous than on modern battlefields. Both 9x19mm and 7.62x25mm FMJ are powerful enough to punch through human torso and if you watch the pics on my first post in this thread you'll notice that getting hit in upper torso by either round will be very bad news.

 

[aop]

A hit from a bolt action rifle in WW2 pretty much ment you where out of combat. These rounds where all hard hitting, even from the 6.5mm calibre's. If you where hit, you pretty much had to be withdrawn from battle

A 7.62x54R russian round produced around 3600 joules on impact while a 7.92x57 produced 3800 joules on average. That power will stop you
(ingame performance should still be simular. infact a mosin nagant was more accurate on long range then a K98k due to much longer barrel lenght)

For comparision, a WW2 era 9x19mm parabellum produced 500 joules on average...

You are talking about muzzle energies. If the bullet passes through human body it still has some of that energy remaining thus not all of it was expended on the impact.

Barrel lenght is not only thing determining accuracy and K98k was generally more accurate than Mosin because of it's superior build quality.

 

[theta123]

Barrel lenght is not only thing determining accuracy and K98k was generally more accurate than Mosin because of it's superior build quality.

Thats incorrect and has been proven many times before. The K98 barrel is shorter and the bullets have much more bullet drop.

I will see if i can find my Gun target cards again, where i matched my Mosin nagant against my mates K98k. my shots landed in a 95mm centre while my round with the k98 110mm group.

That was at 300 meters.

Superior build quality? The German mausers are the WORST constructed of all mausers. This came from somebody i visited, who has EVERY mauser model of every country. And he goes shooting with each and every single one of them. When being showed his target cards and groups, the Gewehr 98 performed very nicely, but the K98 had the worst grouping of them all. He is very mauser biased, but he admited himself that when it comes to accuracy, he preferred any other mauser then a K98 and even would dare to take a Mosin nagant.
Even GERMAN snipers preferred the Russian mosin nagant sniper rifles. The Zeiss optics of the K98 where ftw, but the PU scope of the russians was actually pretty good aswel, and went together with the mosin nagant like a bar with beer

The only advantage the K98 has over the mosin nagant, is the handier size, The easier loading of a stripper clip(It sometimes goes tricky with Mosin nagant) and that 7.92x57mm ammo in WW2 wassent as corrosive as the russian ones(Meaning you would have to clean your mosin a bit more then the K98)

However, technicaly, the K98 is a carbine. In the same way as a Carbine as a Lee enfield SMLE and Schmidt rubin K31. The Carbines of Russia , Mosin M38 and M44where of the same model size as the Mannlicher types, like the Steyr mannlicher M95,Italian carcano's and French berthier carbines.
These where much smaller and handier then K98, but had a barrel of around 450mm compared to 600mm of the K98. The diffrence in long range shooting beyond 400 meter is much and much bigger. The K98 would have no problem in a long range shooting contest between those smaller carbines



ooh my...look at the long post, anyway if you wanna discuss this further with me, feel free to add me on steam=theta123
I would happily discuss it with you

 

[aop]

Thats incorrect and has been proven many times before. The K98 barrel is shorter and the bullets have much more bullet drop.

I will see if i can find my Gun target cards again, where i matched my Mosin nagant against my mates K98k. my shots landed in a 95mm centre while my round with the k98 110mm group.

That was at 300 meters.

Superior build quality? The German mausers are the WORST constructed of all mausers. This came from somebody i visited, who has EVERY mauser model of every country. And he goes shooting with each and every single one of them. When being showed his target cards and groups, the Gewehr 98 performed very nicely, but the K98 had the worst grouping of them all. He is very mauser biased, but he admited himself that when it comes to accuracy, he preferred any other mauser then a K98 and even would dare to take a Mosin nagant.
Even GERMAN snipers preferred the Russian mosin nagant sniper rifles. The Zeiss optics of the K98 where ftw, but the PU scope of the russians was actually pretty good aswel, and went together with the mosin nagant like a bar with beer

The only advantage the K98 has over the mosin nagant, is the handier size, The easier loading of a stripper clip(It sometimes goes tricky with Mosin nagant) and that 7.92x57mm ammo in WW2 wassent as corrosive as the russian ones(Meaning you would have to clean your mosin a bit more then the K98)

However, technicaly, the K98 is a carbine. In the same way as a Carbine as a Lee enfield SMLE and Schmidt rubin K31. The Carbines of Russia where of the same model size as the Mannlicher types, like the Steyr mannlicher M95,Italian carcano's and French berthier carbines.
These where much smaller and handier then K98, but had a barrel of around 450mm compared to 600mm of the K98. The diffrence in long range shooting beyond 400 meter is much and much bigger. Clearly making the K98 better.



ooh my...look at the long post, anyway if you wanna discuss this further with me, feel free to add me on steam=theta123
I would happily discuss it with you

That's a bit small sample size. If I used my M44 as example I could say that every Mosin looked like ****, didn't hit anything and was better used as a blunt weapon than a rifle. Then there's the other end of the spectrum, like my Finnish M39. Generally the wartime production Mosins with round receivers are nowhere near the build quality of pre-war hex receiver Mosins or Kar98k.

IIRC Kar98k was significantly better at longer ranges due to heavier bullet.

 

[theta123]

That's a bit small sample size. If I used my M44 as example I could say that every Mosin looked like ****, didn't hit anything and was better used as a blunt weapon than a rifle. Then there's the other end of the spectrum, like my Finnish M39. Generally the wartime production Mosins with round receivers are nowhere near the build quality of pre-war hex receiver Mosins or Kar98k.

IIRC Kar98k was significantly better at longer ranges due to heavier bullet.

Yes but if you compare War time mosin nagant with WAR time K98's. People who wanna shoot with a K98, search for a pre-war or pre 1941 K98 for a reason. Same goes with the Mosin nagant.
Same goes for the finnish Nagant, if i had to take my finnish M91/27 nagant in a shooting contest with a M39..yeah i know who will win

Also hitting something with a M44 mosin carbine...did you attached the bajonet yes or no?

My mosin nagant is a dragoon/30 model with hex reciever and 30 sights. my mate has a M91/30 made in 1942. Yeah finish wise.... same goes for his epic 1939 K98 and his 1944 Kriegsmodel K98 O_O
Then again, rifles in wartime are made to shoot and produced in as much quantity as possible, not to look pretty

I still prefer the mosin over a K98 anyday. Especialy also when you consider ammo costs

But my favorite would still be, the swedish mauser and Swiss K31 <3 i LOVE those rifles to shoot. BE-A-utifull

 

[aop]

Yes but if you compare War time mosin nagant with WAR time K98's. People who wanna shoot with a K98, search for a pre-war or pre 1941 K98 for a reason. Same goes with the Mosin nagant.
Same goes for the finnish Nagant, if i had to take my finnish M91/27 nagant in a shooting contest with a M39..yeah i know who will win

Also hitting something with a M44 mosin carbine...did you attached the bajonet yes or no?

My mosin nagant is a dragoon/30 model with hex reciever and 30 sights. my mate has a M91/30 made in 1942. Yeah finish wise.... same goes for his epic 1939 K98 and his 1944 Kriegsmodel K98 O_O
Then again, rifles in wartime are made to shoot and produced in as much quantity as possible, not to look pretty

I still prefer the mosin over a K98 anyday. Especialy also when you consider ammo costs

But my favorite would still be, the swedish mauser and Swiss K31 <3 i LOVE those rifles to shoot. BE-A-utifull

Doesn't matter, I tried it with the bayonet taken off and the accuracy was the same. Doesn't help that whoever last had the rifle in Berlin 1945 forgot to clean it before handing it back for storage.

 

[theta123]

Yeah thats the misery. I love the Gewehr 98, found one on a militaria fair. Great looking. But dint got cleaned in the barrel after firing

The entire barrel was a rustbucket...

But ye, dont expect accuracy with the M44 mosin nagant beyond 200 300 meters. Just like on the mosin nagant, the bajonet helps a bit. But not much. Then again, this was a rifle solely designed for second line troops..

 

[Anjelous]

RL a rifle round to the chest will bring you down. No question. The stopping power alone will do it.

It may not KILL you (immediately) but you are out of the fight 99% of the time. For the purposes of RO2 it's fine as is, until the engine is advanced enough to simulate incapacitations and critical battle wounds requiring medics and extraction.

p.s. I've been hit in the leg by a ricochet from a pistol round. That was just a small little chunk of metal but that was enough

 

[slyder73]

Just to put this in some perspective that many players may relate to a little more realistically....

If anyone hunts Elk or Moose (or even if you don't but know someone who does or are familiar with the size of the animal), you will know that the WW2 rifle rounds are comparable and in some cases the exact round used to shoot these animals by hunters.

You will also know that a single shot to the chest cavity/front shoulders of these large game will bring them down instantly most of the time.

These are the rounds that were used in WW2 in all the rifles and semi-autos and machine guns by both sides on the Eastern front.

One shot kills are the norm, they are realistic and that quality of game mechanics should always improve to reflect real life.

 

[Slodin]

So...If you take a bullet that's like an 7.62 round you can still be in combat?..You would be on the ground screaming your guts out unless you got shot in your arms/legs... I'm pretty sure even a 9mm round hits your body you would be out of combat..

It's not really you are dead in the game when you take a bullet, it just simulates that a heavily wounded soldier is unable to fight back..but I doubt you want to see yourself on the ground the entire time before you spawn again...

If you are more careful, when you "kill" someone in close range, you can see that person is still on the ground moving a bit even tho on the top right hand corner it says you have "killed" him. So his not really dead...just heavily wounded...

 

[Dawnbreaker]

Why not just make it into the COD4-7 damage system where you can get shot in the face, run around the corner and somehow regenerate your face within a matter of seconds...? I think that would boost the realism.

 

[Nenjin]

I think we can all agree that the damage system kind of begs more long-term effects, yeah? I'd like to think they didn't get around to really doing them to the degree they wanted to.

But I think the signs are pretty obvious. Wounds are graded. I've experienced slower running speed when I jump off small ledges and get hurt (but not bad enough to die.)

I think stuff like, drastically reduced run speed, poorer aiming, a lot of that stuff has yet to get implemented or at least tweaked to the degree they want. Because your character actually keeps bleeding, if you've survived long enough to hear them say it. Your bandaged wounds will sometimes flash on your avatar while you're running around doing stuff.

So I hope more of these long-term (either the whole life or a fairly long duration after being shot) injuries do come up. While I think it's unrealistic for even these old time rifles to take off limbs most of the time, I do admit it's possible. And at the very least, you shouldn't be sprinting or dolphin diving 30 seconds after taking one straight through the leg.

Nor should I really be able to survive when I've taken rounds to 3 to 4 parts of my body (once I had my upper leg red, lower leg yellow and pelvis yellow from an SMG, bandaged all three wounds at once....) because taken as a whole, that should be way too much bleeding and pulverized flesh to keep on fighting.

 

[PsYcH0_Ch!cKeN]

As fun as this discussion is, I should probably throw it out there that chest and stomach shots are bugged at the moment. I've been through a fair chunk of the code specifically looking at this (because it was annoying the hell out of me) and it's definitely broken in one way, possibly in a second way as well. It'll come down to TW to fix it though.