The power of rifles rounds

[OnTheGun]

I may be the odd one out here, but I don't mind when I shoot a guy and the round looks like it should have killed him but it didn't. It makes me think of all the stories I've heard about of a guy running along not noticing anything but later finding a bullet hole, or of being hit full on but the bullet being stopped by a knife or webbing or some such.

Or even the guy is hopped up on speed or just adrenalin, and doesn't notice he got hit in a place that normally will kill you an hour later, like the liver or kidney. Weird stuff happens in real life too.

It's kind of more immersive for me somehow.

 

[j1yeon]

I don't think body shots should be instant kills, TBH. That would completely remove the reason for the heart shot. Anything in the gut or chest but not in a "vital" area should be that slow 4 to 7 second death. Which is how it works about....30% of the time I'd say.

I'd be fine with a slow death animation if a rifle round to the upper body knocked them down on their ***, and they got a chance to sit up and shoot from the ground or something. But I don't see any reality-based reason for the enemy to still be standing up after you shoot them in the chest with a rifle.

 

[Karnatakapunk]

I think at the upper torso it should be always lettal xcept on the arms

 

[CheckYour6]

Excuse me? Let's say a rifleman hits a smg gunner in the chest from like 10-20 (but even up to 60-70) meters, by the time he rebolted the rifle the smg is able to unload a mag on the poor guy,

Ummm what? Have you just discovered first person shooters? You know, oh wait you don't know....you're supposed to be behind cover when rebolting your rifle and use its short firing time to your advantage not to mention semi-auto rifles pwning those "poor SMG guys everywhere".

Today I realised that belly area is a 100% OHK zone as well and I was getting lots of thigh-insta drops with bolt-action rifles as well. Way overpowered, the easiest weapons to use by far.

 

[Sir Roderick]

Ummm what? Have you just discovered first person shooters? You know, oh wait you don't know....you're supposed to be behind cover when rebolting your rifle and use its short firing time to your advantage not to mention semi-auto rifles pwning those "poor SMG guys everywhere".

Today I realised that belly area is a 100% OHK zone as well and I was getting lots of thigh-insta drops with bolt-action rifles as well. Way overpowered, the easiest weapons to use by far.

You take a rifle round to the thigh, you're going to drop immediately and you're not getting back up. Seems perfectly fine to me.

Also, you try to clear out a building with a rifle, not quite the easiest thing to use. Not even close.

 

[CheckYour6]

It is, actually, when said target is mobile and uses smart tactics like moving from cover to cover in less than three seconds.

Bolt-action rifles are the weaopons that are best used from a covered position. What you're describing, well, you'd have miss every time for it to be true.

Bolt-action rifle needs to be bolted so you have to make your shoot count.

Not really you don't, all you have to do is shoot in the general direction of the enemy and get guaranteed kills. Whereas SMG's are way too inconsitent even within their effective range

 

[Nenjin]

I take wounds to the midriff all the time (in fact probably more than any other area) and I bandage almost all of them. Gut shot isn't necessarily a 1-hit kill from a rifle.

One hit kills in the thigh though just sounds like rocky hit detection. Getting shot in the leg doesn't drop you into prone or anything, which I think is a much better simulation than what seems like bolt action rifles blowing off people's legs.

I'd be fine with a slow death animation if a rifle round to the upper body knocked them down on their ***, and they got a chance to sit up and shoot from the ground or something. But I don't see any reality-based reason for the enemy to still be standing up after you shoot them in the chest with a rifle.

Well, 1, falling down then sitting up to shoot while you die probably sounds a little too much like Last Stand. And two it's more work for model and animations and first person animations, hit boxes.....a lot of work just for a dying animation.

I'm fine with the "I'm dyink!" animation we have now, it's the amount of control that you retain that's the problem. Your view doesn't really tilt, spin or do anything other than get super fuzzy then dark.

If there was more loss of control with the slow death sequence, I think they could use it a lot more for more wounds. As it is, I've been dealt a slow death wound, turned around, and sniped the guy who shot me at 100m before bleeding out. It felt pretty wrong to me, I'm sure it felt really wrong to him.

On the other hand, it's a good reason to always put down the guy who is slowly dying instead of watching him bleed out.

TBH, there seems to be three very distinct kinds of slow death wounds happening right now. There are ones where you can't do anything, you just sort of hold there until you topple over. There are ones where you slow down dramatically and generally can't turn for poop. And then there's ones where you know you're dying, but you seem to retain most of your control. I've experienced all three kinds of deaths at this point after 80 some hours.

#1 is ok.
#2 is closest to what I think most slow death wounds should be. Add in some uncontrolled camera tilt and random amounts of rifle sway to simulate toppling over, and to interfere with aim.
#3 just needs to not happen. I mean, I literally just turned around and took this guy out with a precision shot at 100m, blur, darkness, everything. I felt like a super hero even though I was dying and dead immediately after.

 

[Holy.Death]

Bolt-action rifles are the weaopons that are best used from a covered position. What you're describing, well, you'd have miss every time for it to be true.

Yes, bolt-action rifles are best used from a covered positon, but when you're in said cover so is the enemy. It work both ways. To shoot the enemy you need to get out of cover and in so doing - expose yourself. You need time to locate, aim and shoot, in that time you're vulnerable to anyone who can see you. I am not saying that it's impossible to hit moving target, but it certainly does take some skill to kill someone with bolt-action rifle and stay alive.

You're saying that bolt-action rifle is "the easiest weapons to use by far" when other people are claiming that plenty of people takes auto weapons because they're better than bolt-action rifles. I have no idea where the truth lies when people contradicts each other like that.

Not really you don't, all you have to do is shoot in the general direction of the enemy and get guaranteed kills.

What is "general direction of the enemy"?

 

[Nenjin]

Yeah I'm not really sure what you're on about. You can respect the accuracy of a bolt action rifle in the hands of a good player....but you're on crack if you think the MKB42 is some how not easier to handle on single fire, or that MP40 doesn't really climb at all. What you're describing sound more like how you use a semi-auto than a bolt action. You get a maximum 2 shots to kill someone who is trying to kill you when you've got a bolt-action.

 

[Janowski.51Grds]

Getting hit in any part of the mid section could allow for a kill shot. Wether slow bleed out or not. Its not just the heart or aorta you have to worry about, the kidneys, liver, spleen, vena cava, Lungs....a person could go on and on.


The simple fact is this. Each of the both action rifles fire a higher powered round than any of the autos.... The rifle provides stopping power. It takes a bit more "skill" to use it and to use it effectivly. Its why you dont see people grabbing it constantly. Its just another one of those things that more people will come to see when there are larger maps that arent in the PPSH and MP-40/MKB's wheel house. Anyone who has played Pavlov's house a bit has seen this.

This will simply be one of those things that gets worked out when larger maps are introduced and when the realism community mods and adjusts the weapons loadouts.

 

[OnTheGun]

Today I realised that belly area is a 100% OHK zone as well and I was getting lots of thigh-insta drops with bolt-action rifles as well. Way overpowered, the easiest weapons to use by far.

That's why they give them to every raw recruit. Anyone can fire a rifle effectively. It's harder to use more specialised weapons and stay alive. The rifle is the bread and butter. The rifleman is the core around which the rest of the squad is built. But he is the most general purpose, jack of all trades role on the battlefield, so he still has to know everything. He just has to do it with a weapon than isn't specifically designed for any one job.

-

I just wanted to leave this here. This happened about 2 hours ago:

Spoiler!

Behind me is a building I had just come out of, in the shed in front of me is the falling body of the camping PPSh guy that started shooting at me as I climbed out. The spray of blood is from me using a second shot to confirm the kill as he fell. The rifles are all good.

- Notice that I fired two shots, and I am in the middle of bolting before his body hit the ground, you can see the suppression bar from his shooting and missing. I also had time to take the screenshot, LOL.

 

[freeman45]

Many ww2 rifles are still being used today to drop 2000 lbs moose, the power of these in-game rounds is spot on.


IRL even if a rifle round doesn't hit a vital organ, the hydrostatic shock it creates is enough to cause a system failure.

 

[Sir Roderick]

Many ww2 rifles are still being used today to drop 2000 lbs moose, the power of these in-game rounds is spot on.


IRL even if a rifle round doesn't hit a vital organ, the hydrostatic shock it creates is enough to cause a system failure.

That's actually an interesting point. Do you have a source on that I could read over?

 

[slyder73]

So have rifles been buffed before the release? Because when I was watching some older gameplay footage around 2-3 months ago, bolt-action rifles didn't kill instantly to any part of torso unless the bullet went straight through somebody's heart and I thought it was kind of cool.

The major benefit of a bolt-action rifle would be accuracy rather than raw power which it always has in arcade games.

But as of September 13th, they have been at CoD2 power, every hit to upper body seems to result in an instant kill.

Seriously, it's not that hard to put 2 rounds on a single target when you're safe behind some cover and only need to pop your head up for a fraction of a second to fire a single shot.

To be anything near realistic, a rifle round to anywhere in the torso should equal death in game. Being wounded enough to not be able to fight is the same thing and dying is the way to get a player going again.

This game has no place for dumbing down weapons in an unhistorical manner just to try to please arcadey style console gamers.

Have you fired the guns in real life? Are you aware of the size of the bullet and the damage it will do to a body as a full metal jacket projectile moving through your body?

Someone asked in the post above for sources....just google or youtube ballistic gel and the calibre of the bullets fired from the rifles in game. 7.62x54R is the Soviet round and the German is the 8x57 mm. Both are BIG rounds compared to anything fired in battle rifles today. If you are familiar with the M4 standard rifle used by Western armed forces today the actual bullet is the same size as a .22 rifle that most kids who grow up shooting start with. The only difference is the speed of the projectile which does the damage. In WW2, the rifle rounds were both fast and large, you get hit once, you're done. The only reason the switch to smaller and faster bullet happened is because semi and automatic weapons mean a soldier has to carry a LOT more ammunition with them and ammo is very heavy.

 

[stingel]

Without having read the whole thread: A gun shot to your torso, no matter in which particular place, leaves you unable to fight on. This can barely be simulated and for this reason you drop dead. Because "sudden deaths" are quite unsatisfying and sometimes unrealistic, there is this "controlled slow death" implemented. I like it.

 

[slyder73]

I take wounds to the midriff all the time (in fact probably more than any other area) and I bandage almost all of them. Gut shot isn't necessarily a 1-hit kill from a rifle.

One hit kills in the thigh though just sounds like rocky hit detection. Getting shot in the leg doesn't drop you into prone or anything, which I think is a much better simulation than what seems like bolt action rifles blowing off people's legs.

.

Yes, a gut shot from the rifle rounds represented in game will kill you. The very very lucky may have survived.

Getting hit in the thigh with the rifle rounds in game will likely cause you to bleed enough to lose consciouseness and thereby die within a minute or three, if your femoral artery is severed you will bleed out in under a half minute and will be incapacitated before that due to the drop in blood pressure.

 

[gentrinity]

I seriously don't get any of these posts...

Everyone talks realism but nobody seems to understand just how bullet incapacitation works. If you are hit in a limb by a high caliber round, there is a very strong chance your ****ing limb is going to get blown off. Not hit, but completely severed at the point of impact. I have seen videos (obviously not on youtube, but on gory sites) of a man having his arm almost completely severed when hit, and this was probably done by a modern day round, which is not as high caliber as WW rifle and MG rounds were.

If you get hit in the stomach, you're going to have a hole the size of a large donut in the exit wound. Exit wounds are seen as a phenomena that happens when that massive kinetic energy from a bullet impacts a solid object, it all builds up and on exit, it makes a huge explosion of your innards. So yeah, huge donut sized holes in your body, think about that for a second before you ask for realism.

Now, there are definitely stories of men on the field who got shot multiple times and were still able to continue their mission, and those men got the Medal of Honor, precisely because it was recognized just how much of an extraordinary feat that was. Notice the key word "extraordinary", because the average soldier would've stopped the moment he got shot the first time.

You want to talk about realism, exceptionally few soldiers would bear the pain of getting shot. I love how people say "my soldier should be able to take a hit in the stomach and because it didn't hit a vital organ, should continue to fight as if nothing happened".

Have you ever gotten hit with a high caliber bullet in your stomach and had an exit hole 7+ inches in your back? Probably not. Until then, let's stop pretending like we know how a real soldier would fair, because proposing for even a second that a human being could endure such a thing and then fight back as if nothing happened is preposterous and naive.

 

[slyder73]

I seriously don't get any of these posts...

Everyone talks realism but nobody seems to understand just how bullet incapacitation works. If you are hit in a limb by a high caliber round, there is a very strong chance your ****ing limb is going to get blown off. Not hit, but completely severed at the point of impact. I have seen videos (obviously not on youtube, but on gory sites) of a man having his arm almost completely severed when hit, and this was probably done by a modern day round, which is not as high caliber as WW rifle and MG rounds were.

If you get hit in the stomach, you're going to have a hole the size of a large donut in the exit wound. Exit wounds are seen as a phenomena that happens when that massive kinetic energy from a bullet impacts a solid object, it all builds up and on exit, it makes a huge explosion of your innards. So yeah, huge donut sized holes in your body, think about that for a second before you ask for realism.

Now, there are definitely stories of men on the field who got shot multiple times and were still able to continue their mission, and those men got the Medal of Honor, precisely because it was recognized just how much of an extraordinary feat that was. Notice the key word "extraordinary", because the average soldier would've stopped the moment he got shot the first time.

You want to talk about realism, exceptionally few soldiers would bear the pain of getting shot. I love how people say "my soldier should be able to take a hit in the stomach and because it didn't hit a vital organ, should continue to fight as if nothing happened".

Have you ever gotten hit with a high caliber bullet in your stomach and had an exit hole 7+ inches in your back? Probably not. Until then, let's stop pretending like we know how a real soldier would fair, because proposing for even a second that a human being could endure such a thing and then fight back as if nothing happened is preposterous and naive.

Well said, and true.

 

[Zennousha]

Funny, I still see plenty of situations where my rifle shot to someone's gut from point blank only puts them into a bandage slow bleed, whereas semi-automatic rifle shots to the groin through a fence puts me into an unstoppable bleed out.

 

[SQBsam]

Exactly, IMO the bullets are too WEAK. How can someone take a shot to the pelvis from a rifle and still be able to run, realistically it would destroy most of the bones there and probably stop you from even firing again.

Also, a shot to the arm would sever tendons and bone, you aren't going to shoot back. A shot to the leg and you aren't going to walk in the next few weeks. At the moment all of these shots result in "bleeding"... an inconsequential things that requires a 2 second bandage. They should just die, not slow death, just go down instantly as in Ro1.