The power of rifles rounds

[Arkhell]

.22 in the stomach will put you down and out of combat you will lie on the ground crying for your mommy while your stomach acid eats your insides away very slow and painfully.

Now imagine a way bigger bullet hitting the stomach but actually keep on going untill it's out on the other side taking away everything it hits in the meantime, same effect but the hole is way bigger and with a bid of luck he fired slightly upwards hitting your spine above the part were your intestine nerves are so you don't feel the pain while you die

aka hitting the torso is allmost always lethal if it isn't operated fast, or it didn't hit anything vital (small chance), and even if didn't hit anything vital i want to see the first man that got hit like that and just went on fighting lke nothing happend for longer then 3 min tops, before bleeding out/adrenaline ran out

 

[Enaver]

Two quotes come to mind...

"Its just a flesh wound"

"I aint got time to bleed"

 

[OnTheGun]

aka hitting the torso is allmost always lethal if it isn't operated fast, or it didn't hit anything vital (small chance), and even if didn't hit anything vital i want to see the first man that got hit like that and just went on fighting lke nothing happend for longer then 3 min tops, before bleeding out/adrenaline ran out

Bollocks. I read a book about war time flying that told of a Lancaster tail gunner that took 11 .50 cal hits and survived. Look up a SAS soldier by the name of Laba Laba. He manned a 25 pounder artillery piece single handedly with his jaw shot off.

What about the recent movie based on a true story of a guy who hacked his own arm off with a pocket knife, scaled a cliff, and then walked 5 hours to help?

You'd be shocked what a person can do if they are motivated enough. This is just stuff off the top of my head. Hell, just read a few medal citations and you'll see men fighting on after even horrific wounds. One VC (or was it MoH?) recipient I read about had both legs blown off by a tank round but kept crawling towards the enemy, killing them as he went. Of course he eventually died, but the point is he fought to the last breath.

 

[OnTheGun]

RL a rifle round to the chest will bring you down. No question. The stopping power alone will do it.

It may not KILL you (immediately) but you are out of the fight 99% of the time. For the purposes of RO2 it's fine as is, until the engine is advanced enough to simulate incapacitations and critical battle wounds requiring medics and extraction.

p.s. I've been hit in the leg by a ricochet from a pistol round. That was just a small little chunk of metal but that was enough

Let me quote you something:

"Although wounded by a sniper

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Thats incorrect and has been proven many times before. The K98 barrel is shorter and the bullets have much more bullet drop.

I will see if i can find my Gun target cards again, where i matched my Mosin nagant against my mates K98k. my shots landed in a 95mm centre while my round with the k98 110mm group.

That was at 300 meters.

Superior build quality? The German mausers are the WORST constructed of all mausers. This came from somebody i visited, who has EVERY mauser model of every country. And he goes shooting with each and every single one of them. When being showed his target cards and groups, the Gewehr 98 performed very nicely, but the K98 had the worst grouping of them all. He is very mauser biased, but he admited himself that when it comes to accuracy, he preferred any other mauser then a K98 and even would dare to take a Mosin nagant.
Even GERMAN snipers preferred the Russian mosin nagant sniper rifles. The Zeiss optics of the K98 where ftw, but the PU scope of the russians was actually pretty good aswel, and went together with the mosin nagant like a bar with beer

Sorry kid, but you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

As an owner of several Karabiner 98k & Mosin Nagant 1891/30 rifles, as-well as thousands of rounds of WW2 surplus ammunition, I can tell you for a fact that the average K98k is a more accurate rifle than the average Mosin Nagant. Furthermore the build quality of the average German made K98 is much higher, and tolerances are tight, which is in complete contrast to the average Mosin Nagant.

And barrel length has no influence on accuracy between these two rifles, the design & build quality has, and the K98 is better on both accounts.

The K98 features a thicker stepped barrel, providing superior barrel harmonics and heat dissipation. By comparison the Mosin features a thinner straight barrel which features very little tapering, and as such it doesn't cope very well during prolonged firing due to poor barrel harmonics and heat dissipation.

The advantages of the K98k's stepped barrel design are the following:

1.) Stepped barrels are very stiff, nearly as stiff as the heavy bull barrels of target rifles. And compared to similar sized tapered barrels, stepped barrels feature superior node harmonics to control barrel whip. In short, barrels were stepped so as to decrease vibration and increase accuracy. "Stepping" altered the barrel mass at the measured nodes of resonance and decreased vibratory motion as compared to simple tapered barrels.

2.) When a stepped barrel heats up due to firing, because of the steps, the barrel will not push out and stick to or distort the woodwork/stock.

Note: Barrel's sticking to the woodwork/stock is a primary culprit for causing inconsistent accuracy.

3.) Stepped barrels were easier to turn and gave less problems when heated by firing if the bore were not perfectly centered to the outside dia.

K98k's stepped barrel:


Mosin's straight barrel


Next comes the ammunition available to both, and again here the K98 has a clear advantage as German wartime ammunition is of much higher quality standards, often getting very close to match grade straight out the pack; esp. the bullets are VERY well made. By comparison the Soviet wartime ammunition is of quite poor manufacturing standards, both in terms of the consistency of the propellant weight and the dimensions of the bullet.

But aside from the manufacturing quality the ammunition used by German snipers was a lot better suited for accurate long range shooting. The prefered round used by German snipers was the s.S. Patrone (Schweres Spitzgeschoss), which was a 198 grain FMJBT round with a very high ballistic coefficient of .580 to .595 (G1). In addition to this the German snipers had available to them actual special purpose sniping ammunition, known as the 's.S. Beschuss Patrone', or 'effect firing s.S. round'. This round was similar to the std. s.S. ammunition but featured an extra carefully measured propellant charge and seated an s.S. bullet of match grade build quality instead, lacking usual features such as the bullet cannelure to futher increase the already high ballistic performance.

By comparison Soviet snipers had available to them no special purpose ammunition and had to rely on std. issue Type L ball ammunition unsuited for accurate long range shooting. The ballistic coefficient of the 147 grain Type L bullet was .393 (G1), and the manufacturing standards were low, and as such it was unsuited for accurate long range shooting.

Standard German s.S. ammunition:


On top of this German snipers enjoyed the advantage of being equipped with a large variaty of much better scopes, scopes from Zeiss, Kahles, Dialytan & Hensoldt sporting the best optical clarity & brilliance as-well as a wide field of view, ranging in power from 4x to 6x and all the way up to 8x in magnification. The scopes weren't as easily zeroed in as the simple Russian PU scopes, but they were however much more precise in fine tuning, and once zeroed in they could be taken off for travel and put back on without loss of zero; something no Russian scope mounting system could offer. The German scopes also had the advantage of being calibrated for the trajectory of just one round, the s.S. Patrone.

k98 Sniper Rifle - YouTube

Four Zeiss scopes of different magnification. Bottom up: Two ZF39 4x Zielvier scopes, one 6x Zielsechs scope & one 8x Zielacht scope:


So obviously German snipers definitely did not prefer the Mosin over the K98k, they simply had no reason to do so, and infact there is not single example of a German sniper ever trading in his K98 for a Mosin. Actual trained German snipers prefered the K98 because of its' superior accuracy and build quality, and this comes directly from the mouth of three actual German veteran snipers:

"If you had a choice, what weapon would you use and why?:

Mattha

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Sorry Theta123, but Unus here actually knows how these weapons perform, he personally owns a number of Rifles and even some old WW2 ammunition, which he has actually broken down, studied, and handloaded.

The Mosin Nagant is the crap shooter, not the Kar98k. Most WW2-era Mosins shoot around 2-3 MoA with 148gr Ball ammo, while most WW2-era Kar98k can shoot up to 1 MoA with 197gr Ball.

Don't get me wrong, you can get a good Mosin and feed it with Match-grade ammo to produce good results, but in WW2 both those factors were unavailable: good Mosins were extremely rare and Match ammo didn't even exist until fairly recently (7N1 cartridge I think was the first.)

 

[Nenjin]

The picture of the barrels alone kind of tells the tale. One is a simple, efficient cast that's tapered down so it's consistent and strong....the Mosin looks begging to get bent at its thinnest points or along its straight length.

 

[Fishsticks]

Actually that's not true. It's called "temporary cavity" for a reason. Yeah, the tissue is subjected to huge shock but it doesn't mean the said tissue is destroyed. I think the misconceptions about temporary cavity are caused by use of ballistic gelatin that has similar density as living tissue but it's nowhere near as strong or elastic as muscle tissue for example.

I'd like to remind again that human body doesn't have "health points" and even .22lr is lethal if it hit's the right spot so underestimating "power" of some rounds (pistol caliber) just because some rounds (rifle caliber) have much more energy is not wise. Remember that during WWII body armor was rarity and thus pistol caliber rounds were far more dangerous than on modern battlefields. Both 9x19mm and 7.62x25mm FMJ are powerful enough to punch through human torso and if you watch the pics on my first post in this thread you'll notice that getting hit in upper torso by either round will be very bad news.

The temporary cavity is caused by the "inertia of the fluid particles". Yes the cavity itself is temporary but the destruction is devestating and irreversible. Destroyed tissue is not the concern. The TC breaks bones and will pulverize vital organs. It is VERY destructive. This is the exact reason high velocity weapons are so devestating.

Source:

[URL]http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter3.htm[/URL]

"With the perfection of guns that could shoot high-velocity missiles came the observation that the resulting wounds appeared as though they had been caused by an actual explosion within the body. External signs of injury were often slight, the entrance and exit holes small, but an unbelievable amount of damage occurred within. Hugier (cited by Horsley4) noted this explosive effect as early as 1848 in Paris, and it has been emphasized by all subsequent writers. Such action has led to mutual accusation by both sides in warfare that the enemy was using explosive bullets. Not only is the tissue pulped within a large region about the bullet path but intact nerves lose their ability to conduct impulses and bones are found to be broken that have not suffered a direct hit.
It is in this explosive effect that high-velocity missiles differ from those of low velocity. The wounds from a spear or a nearly spent revolver bullet correspond more closely to the expected cylinder of disintegrated tissue, little larger than the spear itself. This type of wound can be compared to what happens when a rod is plunged into soft snow. Snow piles up in front and is pushed ahead and to the side, and when the rod is withdrawn a hole is left whose diameter is little more than that of the rod. The situation is far different with high-velocity missiles. They leave behind a large temporary cavity whose behavior is quite comparable to the gas bubble of an underwater explosion. Later, the cavity collapses, but far-reaching destructive effects have occurred during the expansion. A detailed description of what happens during the cavity formation will be found in this chapter."

 

[MSol_18]

Actually that's not true. It's called "temporary cavity" for a reason. Yeah, the tissue is subjected to huge shock but it doesn't mean the said tissue is destroyed. I think the misconceptions about temporary cavity are caused by use of ballistic gelatin that has similar density as living tissue but it's nowhere near as strong or elastic as muscle tissue for example.

I'd like to remind again that human body doesn't have "health points" and even .22lr is lethal if it hit's the right spot so underestimating "power" of some rounds (pistol caliber) just because some rounds (rifle caliber) have much more energy is not wise. Remember that during WWII body armor was rarity and thus pistol caliber rounds were far more dangerous than on modern battlefields. Both 9x19mm and 7.62x25mm FMJ are powerful enough to punch through human torso and if you watch the pics on my first post in this thread you'll notice that getting hit in upper torso by either round will be very bad news.

I agree with this. I think the whole question should be whether pistol rounds should kill or incapacitate in one shot and not rifle rounds. Rifle rounds will undoubtedly kill/incapacitate in one hit almost anywhere on the human body. A 9mm pistol round is also a strong round and will kill/incapacitate in one shot (torso and above) most of the times. Some people need to stop this mentality of "pistols kill in 3 rounds whilst bolts kill in 1" just because the bolt shoots a much bigger rounds.

 

[Fishsticks]

I agree with this. I think the whole question should be whether pistol rounds should kill or incapacitate in one shot and not rifle rounds. Rifle rounds will undoubtedly kill/incapacitate in one hit almost anywhere on the human body. A 9mm pistol round is also a strong round and will kill/incapacitate in one shot (torso and above) most of the times. Some people need to stop this mentality of "pistols kill in 3 rounds whilst bolts kill in 1" just because the bolt shoots a much bigger rounds.

Again this is wrong. Pistol rounds are not high velocity rounds. They do not cause a devestating inertia explosion inside your torso. Please read my post above and the attached link to learn more about high velocity rifle rounds.

The size of the bullet is insignificant. It's the velocity.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Again this is wrong. Pistol rounds are not high velocity rounds. They do not cause a devestating inertia explosion inside your torso. Please read my post above and the attached link to learn more about high velocity rifle rounds.

The size of the bullet is insignificant. It's the velocity.

Quite true.

You did make a mistake in your other post though:

This is the exact reason high caliber weapons are so devestating.

Should read: This is the exact reason high velocity weapons are so devastating.

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Fishsticks]

Quite true.

You did make a mistake in your other post though:


Should read: This is the exact reason high velocity weapons are so devastating.

Sorry, couldn't resist

haha caught me there. Thanks for the fix

 

[[SM]Fluttershy]

Unus, that post about the difference(s) between the K98 vs. the Mosin was rather helpful and insightful; I've fired both at a 300m and had exceptionally good accuracy using iron sights and I'm dying to go give both of them a go at longer ranges. Per my spotter, I was pretty much hitting right in the center of my targets, though with the Mosin there was some slight deviation from the center mass whereas with the K98 it was precise, accurate shots each time. I also was given the opportunity to shoot both of those firearms with the bayonets attached, though I think it was interesting to note that my precision suffered ever so slightly with the K98 whereas with the Mosin I pretty much started hitting dead center (much like with the K98 sans the bayonet). My personal preference was for the K98 purely because as a relatively unskilled shooter, it was exceedingly easy for me to line up shots at that range without the use of a scope- the Mosin was similar, but shots deviated slightly more than with the K98 and I will admit, I really had to work the bolt on that Mosin every few rounds.

 

[aop]

The temporary cavity is caused by the "inertia of the fluid particles". Yes the cavity itself is temporary but the destruction is devestating and irreversible. Destroyed tissue is not the concern. The TC breaks bones and will pulverize vital organs. It is VERY destructive. This is the exact reason high velocity weapons are so devestating.

Source:

http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter3.htm[url]http://history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/woundblstcs/chapter3.htm[/URL]

"With the perfection of guns that could shoot high-velocity missiles came the observation that the resulting wounds appeared as though they had been caused by an actual explosion within the body. External signs of injury were often slight, the entrance and exit holes small, but an unbelievable amount of damage occurred within. Hugier (cited by Horsley4) noted this explosive effect as early as 1848 in Paris, and it has been emphasized by all subsequent writers. Such action has led to mutual accusation by both sides in warfare that the enemy was using explosive bullets. Not only is the tissue pulped within a large region about the bullet path but intact nerves lose their ability to conduct impulses and bones are found to be broken that have not suffered a direct hit.
It is in this explosive effect that high-velocity missiles differ from those of low velocity. The wounds from a spear or a nearly spent revolver bullet correspond more closely to the expected cylinder of disintegrated tissue, little larger than the spear itself. This type of wound can be compared to what happens when a rod is plunged into soft snow. Snow piles up in front and is pushed ahead and to the side, and when the rod is withdrawn a hole is left whose diameter is little more than that of the rod. The situation is far different with high-velocity missiles. They leave behind a large temporary cavity whose behavior is quite comparable to the gas bubble of an underwater explosion. Later, the cavity collapses, but far-reaching destructive effects have occurred during the expansion. A detailed description of what happens during the cavity formation will be found in this chapter."

He was talking about 6-8" temporary cavity, that area is definitely not destroyed.

I don't know if you understand the term "temporary cavity" but it doesn't mean volume of meat that is turned to pulp but the volume where tissues are moved by the shock wave of the passing bullet. From the same link you posted:

A missile entering soft tissues at a relatively high velocity produces a temporary or explosive cavity of large dimensions. The cavity, at its maximum size, has a cross-sectional diameter many times that of the permanent cavity, which remains after the temporary cavity has collapsed. The temporary cavity persists for a relatively short time, reaching its maximum size in less than a millisecond and lasting for not more than several milliseconds.

Different tissues react differently. Highly elastic tissues like muscle don't turn into "pulp" like some people here describe.

 

[aop]

Again this is wrong. Pistol rounds are not high velocity rounds. They do not cause a devestating inertia explosion inside your torso. Please read my post above and the attached link to learn more about high velocity rifle rounds.

The size of the bullet is insignificant. It's the velocity.

Both of those play significant factor. If the bullet can't bleed it's energy to the tissue it won't wound as efficiently as bullet that transfers it's energy to target tissues.

This is the reason why deforming bullets have far superior wounding ability to FMJs. FMJ that tumbles is far more deadlier than FMJ that goes right through tissue.

edit: If you read my first post in this thread you should know why getting hit by 9x19mm or 7.62x25mm to upper torso is very bad news.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

This is the reason why deforming bullets have far superior wounding ability to FMJs. FMJ that tumbles is far more deadlier than FMJ that goes right through tissue.

Now you're talking about bullet shape though, and not size.

Shape is definitely important, size much less so.

Velocity & shape are the most influencial factors that determine the amount of damage a projectile does to what'ever material it passes through.

That having having been said all the standard WW2 military surplus is of the full metal jacket type, and as such they hardly expand at all at pistol velocities.

As soon as you start moving up over velocities of ~350 m/s you start seeing some significant changes in terminal ballistics however, both in terms of the size of the temporary cavities becoming significantly larger, but also in terms of how the projectile deforms upon impact. At velocities over ~550 m/s the temporary cavities will start becoming very nasty, and at velocties of 700+ m/s bones that merely lie close to the path of the projectile often break.

So in terms of FMJ bullets, velocity is definitely the real killer!

 

[aop]

Now you're talking about bullet shape though, and not size.

Shape is definitely important, size much less so.

Velocity & shape are the most influencial factors that determine the amount of damage a projectile does to what'ever material it passes through.

That having having been said all the standard WW2 military surplus is of the full metal jacket type, and as such they hardly expand at all at pistol velocities.

As soon as you start moving up over velocities of ~350 m/s you start seeing some significant changes in terminal ballistics however, both in terms of the size of the temporary cavities becoming significantly larger, but also in terms of how the projectile deforms upon impact. At velocities over ~550 m/s the temporary cavities will start becoming very nasty, and at velocties of 700+ m/s bones that merely lie close to the path of the projectile often break.

So in terms of FMJ bullets, velocity is definitely the real killer!

I'd recommend reading my earlier posts. I never said 9x19mm or 7.62x25mm were as effective as rifle caliber rounds, I said that you shouldn't underestimate them because rifle rounds are more powerful.

That still depends a lot on the bullet. If the shape and materials are such that the bullet has very good penetration it won't transfer it's energy to tissues very well. If it's shaped and balanced so that it'll tumble or turn tail first it'll produce much nastier wounds. I still think that people hold misconceptions about the temporal cavity, mostly because it looks very impressive in ballistic gelatin. Not all tissue affected is destroyed, it depends on how elastic and strong the tissue is. Thus saying that everything in temporal cavity is turned into a pulp is not true.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

I'd recommend reading my earlier posts. I never said 9x19mm or 7.62x25mm were as effective as rifle caliber rounds, I said that you shouldn't underestimate them because rifle rounds are more powerful.

That still depends a lot on the bullet. If the shape and materials are such that the bullet has very good penetration it won't transfer it's energy to tissues very well. If it's shaped and balanced so that it'll tumble or turn tail first it'll produce much nastier wounds. I still think that people hold misconceptions about the temporal cavity, mostly because it looks very impressive in ballistic gelatin. Not all tissue affected is destroyed, it depends on how elastic and strong the tissue is. Thus saying that everything in temporal cavity is turned into a pulp is not true.

It's not that the surrounding tissue gets destroyed, much of it gets severely damaged though, but more importantly that vital organs close to the path of the bullet often rupture thanks to that large explosive cavity - something that doesn't happen with most pistol rounds.

A good example would be a rifle FMJ bullet that passes close by the heart, but not directly striking it, it will create a temporary cavity so large that it will actually rupture the heart = goodbye charlie!

A pistol FMJ bullet that passes the same distance from the heart will likely still leave the guy alive, albeit with a punctured lung.

 

[theta123]

Sorry Theta123, but Unus here actually knows how these weapons perform, he personally owns a number of Rifles and even some old WW2 ammunition, which he has actually broken down, studied, and handloaded.

The Mosin Nagant is the crap shooter, not the Kar98k. Most WW2-era Mosins shoot around 2-3 MoA with 148gr Ball ammo, while most WW2-era Kar98k can shoot up to 1 MoA with 197gr Ball.

Don't get me wrong, you can get a good Mosin and feed it with Match-grade ammo to produce good results, but in WW2 both those factors were unavailable: good Mosins were extremely rare and Match ammo didn't even exist until fairly recently (7N1 cartridge I think was the first.)

I to own these rifles and shoot with them. But yeah, when i show you my shooting cards, people can say=You dont have proof that these where fired by a mosin or a K98.. you could have easily swapped them.

I also used surplus ammo, dated 1944, 1946 and 1950. The mauser ammo i used was however of FN, so i am not sure how that one is regarded

And unnus, calling me a "Kid" makes me wonder who the real immature is. Sorry but that is a VERY DISRESPECTFULL reply.

The mosin nagant i own, by the way, is a M91 Dragoon. Not a M91/30. Made in 1928, converted with the model 30 Sights and sight hood. Results can differ alot between a peace time made weapon and a WAR time made weapon


To me, the K98 issent worth twice to threetimes the price you can get for any other mauser rifle. The last militaria fair showed before me a beautifull Yugoslavian M48. Price tag=250 euro, next to it a wartime K98.1944. Price, ooh lets just say=675 euro, it wassent even SERIAL matched.
If i have to choose, i take my Czech VZ 24 and Swedish Gevar 96 over a K98 Any day, including my M91 Dragoon. The K98 is a nice rifle, i never said it was inaccurate, but when i went shooting with both, my Mosin nagant outbeated my mate his K98 i was so lucky to borrow. His K98 was of 1939. made in the mauserwerke.

But yeah, when you question something "german" you always get the full wind in front.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

theta123, the moment you claimed that the German made K98s were of poor quality I knew you were making stuff up, because on average they are a heck of a lot better made than the average Mosin Nagant! Anyone who's ever owned several examples both rifles would know this, you didn't.

One only has to look at the milling of the various parts to note the difference.