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The power of rifles rounds

It's not that the surrounding tissue gets destroyed, much of it gets severely damaged though, but more importantly that vital organs close to the path of the bullet often rupture thanks to that large explosive cavity - something that doesn't happen with most pistol rounds.

A good example would be a rifle FMJ bullet that passes close by the heart, but not directly striking it, it will create a temporary cavity so large that it will actually rupture the heart = goodbye charlie!

A pistol FMJ bullet that passes the same distance from the heart will likely still leave the guy alive, albeit with a punctured lung.
Heart muscle is so strong and thick that I really doubt a rifle caliber FMJ bullet passing near it can rupture it. It's one of the strongest tissue types in our body. Lungs can be ruptured and collapsed, but I really doubt that heart could rupture by FMJ bullet passing nearby.

Here's an example of animal heart hit by .308 hunting bullet:
http://www.outlawstatebullets.com/8.html
 
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Sorry kid, but you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

I would guess the real problem is he knows enough to be confident, but not enough to know he shouldn't be. It's pretty common around here.

And barrel length has no influence on accuracy between these two rifles, the design & build quality has, and the K98 is better on both accounts.

I'll take personal experimentation over historical accounts, over logically arrived at "best guesses", any day. Barrel length is always important for accuracy, but if you say the difference is negligible, I'll take your word for it. I don't always trust historical accounts - just look at the rosy reviews RO1 gets from people not happy with RO2 for whatever reason. RO1 has become a benchmark unjustifiably because of good memories of playing it. I also don't trust arguments based on pure logic, unless there is no better option.

I will point out though that what you can do with the weapon may not be what the average guy in the field would be able to do. So he might remember his rifle as being much better then the enemy's because he didn't die. It is also possible for a weapon to be useless in the hands of an amateur, but devastating in the hands of a professional.

The MkB for example is a reversal of this, but still the same idea. It is less capable at any one role than the weapon it was designed to replace. In the hands of an amateur it is a killing machine, but only in comparison to an amateur using the SMG or rifle. People remember it as some sort of elite weapon because it was very rare. The reality is this weapon was meant to be the basic weapon every raw recruit gets before he learns how to do a specialist role, it is not an elite weapon like a sniper rifle or SMG that is designed to do one thing very well.

One rifle might be more accurate on the range than the other when the two soldiers are in a perfect firing position taking carefully aimed shots. But in actual usage in combat, you very rarely if ever get to fire your rifle from a perfect stance. You will be engaging targets rapidly at intermediate ranges and need to be able to quickly bring the rifle to bear on widely separated targets. Combat is nothing like range shooting. So a shorter weapon may be less accurate at 800m but more effective at 400m. You can hit a target more easily because the weapon is easier to handle, so the difference in accuracy is not noticeable or may even appear reversed.

On the range you shoot to be accurate, in the field you shoot to be effective. On the range, you aim for the bullseye, and get used to thinking you can hit an eyeball from 100m. In the field, you aim at the centre mass (hips) and get used to rarely knowing if you even hit the guy. The two types of shooting are very different and can't really be compared that closely.

To me, the average German rifleman will be more effective (meaning hitting the enemy, not just what was aimed at) than the average Russian rifleman because his weapon is more general purpose and his training more detailed and complete.

Still, I'll take your word for it that the German weapon was the superior weapon technically. It's hardly a surprise, after all. What did the Germans make that wasn't technically superior to just about anything anyone else made at the time?

So obviously German snipers definitely did not prefer the Mosin over the K98k

No, not obviously at all. The feel of the weapon is the biggest factor for a sniper. He should be much more accurate with any weapon than the standard rifleman due to his training, so he's not looking for technical superiority, he's looking for what will get the job done for him. Some might prefer a longer weapon, some might prefer s shorter weapon. A sniper might like to use the enemy's weapon in order to disguise his presence. He might go for a weapon that will have easily available parts for field repairs.

In other words, the inherent accuracy of the rifle because of its design is less important than the factors that come into play when you live and fight with the weapon. On paper the K98 might be superior, but personal preference and training will always trump technical superiority.

You say there is no example of a sniper taking the K98 over the Mosin, but this is where the problem is: You can not trust historical accounts that much. It might 'never' have happened because it was prohibited and such instances would not be put on paper. I know this much, when I was in the army, the first thing you tried to do was replace all the worn out old stuff you were issued, with stuff that did it better. You just had to make sure you still had the other stuff so you could pass inspection when needed. I never went to war, but if even during peace time soldiers are constantly modifying their loadout to suit their personal preference, even if it means breaking rules, I would assume "never" is unlikely and "sometimes" is more accurate. If a sniper is in the field and his K98 takes a round through the stock and shatters, he will use whatever weapon he can get his hands on, and he will still expect to be a better shot than the average joe.


One thing I found when I was in the army, going in I was all gung ho about the different weapons and how they are best used and so on. Then I ran smack into reality. Soldiers don't give a ****. It throws lead in the general direction of the enemy - that will do. What they DO care about is how much time and effort they have to put into getting that rifle where it needs to be in order to fire that round effectively. I could hit 500m targets easily, but if the thing is so heavy and awkward that I HAVE to hit long range targets like that, then I'll be in deep **** when it's close and tight... or when I had to walk for two days before starting the fight, or when I've been fighting for 10 hours and the enemy are still coming.

My point is, the soldiers really don't care about their tools as much as you do. They are just tools. The right one does the job properly, but even the wrong one can be made to work if you are skilled, and you never rely on the tool to work properly when you need it.
 
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You seem to have the wrong idea of how it works:

Deformation of the bullet, fragmentation of the bullet or secondary targets such as bone, and amount of kinetic energy imparted to tissues, as well as tissue characteristics affect patterns of tissue injury. The higher the specific gravity of tissue, the greater the damage. Elasticity reduces damage. Thus, lung tissue of low density and high elasticity is damaged less than muscle with higher density but some elasticity. Liver, spleen, and brain have little tensile strength and elasticity and are easily injured, as is adipose tissue. Fluid-filled organs (bladder, heart, great vessels, bowel) can burst because of pressure waves generated. A bullet striking bone may cause fragmentation of bone and/or bullet, with numerous secondary missiles formed, each producing additional wounding. Fragmentation increases the permanent cavity size (Maiden, 2009).
 
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I to own these rifles and shoot with them. But yeah, when i show you my shooting cards, people can say=You dont have proof that these where fired by a mosin or a K98.. you could have easily swapped them.

I also used surplus ammo, dated 1944, 1946 and 1950. The mauser ammo i used was however of FN, so i am not sure how that one is regarded

And unnus, calling me a "Kid" makes me wonder who the real immature is. Sorry but that is a VERY DISRESPECTFULL reply.

The mosin nagant i own, by the way, is a M91 Dragoon. Not a M91/30. Made in 1928, converted with the model 30 Sights and sight hood. Results can differ alot between a peace time made weapon and a WAR time made weapon


To me, the K98 issent worth twice to threetimes the price you can get for any other mauser rifle. The last militaria fair showed before me a beautifull Yugoslavian M48. Price tag=250 euro, next to it a wartime K98.1944. Price, ooh lets just say=675 euro, it wassent even SERIAL matched.
If i have to choose, i take my Czech VZ 24 and Swedish Gevar 96 over a K98 Any day, including my M91 Dragoon. The K98 is a nice rifle, i never said it was inaccurate, but when i went shooting with both, my Mosin nagant outbeated my mate his K98 i was so lucky to borrow. His K98 was of 1939. made in the mauserwerke.

But yeah, when you question something "german" you always get the full wind in front.
People would take you more seriously if you were better at articulating your thoughts. Right now your post do not have structure and people have to pick at statements instead of an overall message.


The arguments of 1 MOA versus 3 MOA and more are rather null in the context of this game. Combat distances are under 250 meters in almost every map and often hover around 100 meters but generally less. For putting effective shots on a human torso, the one inch versus 5 inch groupings do not make a difference. It's called minute of man.

I too have owned a few of the rifles from this game and shot many more of them from using those of friends. With a standard B-27 target graduated 50 m out to 250 m, the vast majority of shooters with any instruction will have no issue hitting these targets....if they are aimed at them.


Anyhow, the diameter of these rounds vary a few hundreths of an inch from .308". They are almost all equal in effectiveness downrange. The differences being the actual construction of the bullet and its tendency to yaw and produce larger or smaller permanent cavities and crushed tissues.
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From:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19937

Anyways, the point is that pretty much all of these rounds will yaw in tissue and invert their direction at least once causing rather strong tissue crushing. Although depending on the depth of the tissue you may see a pass-through wound with zero yaw, or multiple inversions (erroneously called tumbling). According to the accounts I have read about in medical manuals on GSWs and the like, the thicker the tissue the more chance there is for yaw. Key word: chance.


The rifles in the game using the 8mm Mauser or the 7.62x54r Russian will provide nearly identical terminal performance. The Kurz round in the STG (MKB) should be about 90% as effective as the 8mm and 54R. Various sources suggest the neck before yawing for those rounds was less than that of the full power rifle round and would do better against short depth tissues like your arms and legs or neck. Still, a hole through a major artery or your heart or brain does the trick. Or your spine...


I'll talk pistols and smgs later.
 
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You seem to have the wrong idea of how it works:

Deformation of the bullet, fragmentation of the bullet or secondary targets such as bone, and amount of kinetic energy imparted to tissues, as well as tissue characteristics affect patterns of tissue injury. The higher the specific gravity of tissue, the greater the damage. Elasticity reduces damage. Thus, lung tissue of low density and high elasticity is damaged less than muscle with higher density but some elasticity. Liver, spleen, and brain have little tensile strength and elasticity and are easily injured, as is adipose tissue. Fluid-filled organs (bladder, heart, great vessels, bowel) can burst because of pressure waves generated. A bullet striking bone may cause fragmentation of bone and/or bullet, with numerous secondary missiles formed, each producing additional wounding. Fragmentation increases the permanent cavity size (Maiden, 2009).
Could you link the whole article? That doesn't mention temporary cavity anywhere, sounds like what direct hit does.

edit: I must admit I remembered the lung rupture wrong. I should have known better since I'm studying Biomedical Engineering at university.

edit2: This is also one reason why I really doubt that FMJ can rupture heart by passing near it:
There's not that much suitable medium around the heart to transfer the energy from the bullet to the heart. I don't think much less dense lung tissue can transfer enough energy to heart to cause the rupture of the strongest muscle in our body.

Example picture:
exh56786a.jpg
 
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My personal preference was for the K98 purely because as a relatively unskilled shooter, it was exceedingly easy for me to line up shots at that range without the use of a scope- the Mosin was similar, but shots deviated slightly more than with the K98 and I will admit, I really had to work the bolt on that Mosin every few rounds.

And there it is. Under perfect conditions on the range, the Mosin might have been more accurate (not likely) but in general, the smaller, lighter weapon will be easier to acquire targets with, making it more effective in combat for the average soldier.

An expert might be able to drive nails at 100m with the Mosin, but anyone can drive nails at 100m with the K98, figuratively speaking. I notice that the game seems to have these two weapons pretty accurately balanced. I get more kills and more score when playing with the K98 than the Mosin, but I still regularly outshoot most people with any weapon. So in the real world I would prefer the K98, but in game, I prefer the one I would have been carrying if I was there, even if it's slightly less capable. The difference isn't enough for me to worry about.

Same goes for the MGs. You can do anything the MG34 can do with the DP-28. It's just harder. I like a challenge, so I prefer the DP-28 for that reason alone. It's worse than the MG34, but is more satisfying to use in game.
 
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Is this discussion really moving into Temporary Cavity theory?
I mean, I would NEVER trust in temporary cavity to stop or kill my opponent. That's been done and failed miserably.

Temporary cavity can cause rapid incapacitation and fatalities in SOME RARE SCENARIOS when encountering CERTAIN ORGANS, but in almost all cases it will not be a factor into any form of stopping power.

The permanent cavity is what you want. More yawing, the better. Handgun rounds fail to yaw. Bad wound results. Need I say more? The temporary cavity of a 7.62mm round may reach 6-8 inches (btw which it reaches OUTSIDE the width of a human torso) but the round will yaw and create a permanent cavity a factor of the bullet's length (let's say 3cm in height) which obviously destroys more tissue, increasing likelyhood of hitting a vital organ, and of course increasing probability of incapacitation.

5.56mm is the perfect example of how temporary cavity fails. The round fragments at very high velocities causing a large permanent cavity. At lower velocities it fails to do this but still produces good temporary cavitation.
Now why is 5.56mm considered a poor stopper at long ranges? It produces good temporary cavity... the answer is that temporary cavity cannot be relied on. If anything, blow tissue away, don't just push it around, you can trust in that.
 
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Well realistically bolt-actions do have the benefit of accuracy AND stopping power. That is the fact they fire RIFLE rounds, it would actually be more arcade-ish to make the rifles less powerful so I'm not sure what the OP was trying to get at.

Not to mention the times that I've been shot in the torso by rifles and not been killed. Not all shots to the torso are OHK, shots to the stomach/intestines, and times when a round goes through my character's upper chest without killing him instantly.
 
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Is this discussion really moving into Temporary Cavity theory?
I mean, I would NEVER trust in temporary cavity to stop or kill my opponent. That's been done and failed miserably.

Temporary cavity can cause rapid incapacitation and fatalities in SOME RARE SCENARIOS when encountering CERTAIN ORGANS, but in almost all cases it will not be a factor into any form of stopping power.

The permanent cavity is what you want. More yawing, the better. Handgun rounds fail to yaw. Bad wound results. Need I say more? The temporary cavity of a 7.62mm round may reach 6-8 inches (btw which it reaches OUTSIDE the width of a human torso) but the round will yaw and create a permanent cavity a factor of the bullet's length (let's say 3cm in height) which obviously destroys more tissue, increasing likelyhood of hitting a vital organ, and of course increasing probability of incapacitation.

5.56mm is the perfect example of how temporary cavity fails. The round fragments at very high velocities causing a large permanent cavity. At lower velocities it fails to do this but still produces good temporary cavitation.
Now why is 5.56mm considered a poor stopper at long ranges? It produces good temporary cavity... the answer is that temporary cavity cannot be relied on. If anything, blow tissue away, don't just push it around, you can trust in that.
I don't think the bolded part is true but rest of the post is spot on. 7.62x54R FMJ can produce that kind of temporary cavity in ballistic gelatin but not in most human tissues because human tissues have far superior tensile strenght and elasticity when compared to ballistic gelatin. Ballistic gelatin is also completely uniform and the shock wave moves in it much more optimally than in human tissues.

Temporary cavity means that the tissues are moved away from the path of the bullet and after the bullet passes the cavity closes. Thus temporary cavity can't extend out of the body. Ruptures caused by the passing bullets are part of the permanent cavity (some people in this thread obiviously mixed temporary and permanent cavities).
 
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Is this discussion really moving into Temporary Cavity theory?
I mean, I would NEVER trust in temporary cavity to stop or kill my opponent. That's been done and failed miserably.

Temporary cavity can cause rapid incapacitation and fatalities in SOME RARE SCENARIOS when encountering CERTAIN ORGANS, but in almost all cases it will not be a factor into any form of stopping power.

The permanent cavity is what you want. More yawing, the better. Handgun rounds fail to yaw. Bad wound results. Need I say more? The temporary cavity of a 7.62mm round may reach 6-8 inches (btw which it reaches OUTSIDE the width of a human torso) but the round will yaw and create a permanent cavity a factor of the bullet's length (let's say 3cm in height) which obviously destroys more tissue, increasing likelyhood of hitting a vital organ, and of course increasing probability of incapacitation.

5.56mm is the perfect example of how temporary cavity fails. The round fragments at very high velocities causing a large permanent cavity. At lower velocities it fails to do this but still produces good temporary cavitation.
Now why is 5.56mm considered a poor stopper at long ranges? It produces good temporary cavity... the answer is that temporary cavity cannot be relied on. If anything, blow tissue away, don't just push it around, you can trust in that.

Well how do you define a man-stopper ?

I can say for a fact that the 5.56mm is quite reliable at incapacitating someone very quickly with the first shot. The only reason the US military is considering replacing it is because of its' poor penetrating power, which is quite a concern with all the compounds over in Afghanistan.

As for when it hits flesh though, the 5.56mm litterally explodes once it enter the body, causing some absolutely terrifying wounds.

Anyway the larger and more violently occuring temporary cavity of rifle rounds is what in general makes them more devastating than pistol rounds, as it alone is capable of rupturing vital organs.
 
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Here's a good article on the matter:
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/how_a_high-speed.html

"The temporary cavity phenomenon is significant because it has been found to be the most important factor in determining the extent of the wounding in an individual in regard to the interaction of a bullet with the body. In the case of low-velocity missiles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in the tissue by a pistol bullet is insignificant to cause the remote injuries produced by a high-velocity rifle bullet"
 
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Here's a good article on the matter:
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/how_a_high-speed.htmlhttp://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/scientific_topics/wound_ballistics/how_a_high-speed.html

"The temporary cavity phenomenon is significant because it has been found to be the most important factor in determining the extent of the wounding in an individual in regard to the interaction of a bullet with the body. In the case of low-velocity missiles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in the tissue by a pistol bullet is insignificant to cause the remote injuries produced by a high-velocity rifle bullet"
Did you read the article?
A full metal-jacketed rifle bullet will produce a cylindrical cavity until it begins to tumble. At this time, the bullet’s cross-sectional area will become larger, and the drag force will be increased. The result is an increase in kinetic energy loss and thus an increase in the diameter of the temporary cavity. With hunting ammunition, the picture is radically different. The bullet will begin to expand shortly after entering the body, with a resultant rapid loss of kinetic energy. A large temporary cavity is formed immediately as the bullet enters the body.
You guys have been claiming only thing FMJ needs to injure is velocity but that article is saying the same thing as I, unless the bullet transfers it's energy to the tissue it won't do that much damage. So unless the FMJ bullet tumbles it won't produce the effects you were claiming earlier.

So rifle caliber FMJ going clean through human body without tumbling doesn't magically turn large areas of tissues to pulp or explode organs. It will not produce the 6-8" temporary cavity some people claimed here unless it tumbles.

edit: Too bad that article doesn't explore the elasticity and tensile strenght of tissues.
 
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I wish bolts were more powerful. Or I guess at least more common. Seems like everyone I die to has either has a semi or full auto weapon (and they own me with them all the time).

It has happened to me many times where I see someone peeking around cover as I am doing the same. I like up my shot, take the shot and miss (for whatever reason of my own suckage). At the same time the guy is also lining up his shot (or he sees my muzzle flash) and takes a few shots at me with his smg and I am dead (80+ M range).

Granted it seems like it is probably realistic. I mean he peppers me with bullets while I only get one shot. There is a good chance I am going to get hit. But it makes me question what good is my rifle when you can "snipe" with an smg and clear out a room later.

Now I understand that at much longer ranges (say 200m) he will have a much harder time getting those shots off. But honestly the way the maps are designed and the way you sight, you rarely seem to get a chance at anything longer than 150 (no scope).

So far my conclusion is that I am not very good at this game. But at the same time I really feel like there is a big disadvantage to having a weapon capable of longer range, but never being able to utilize due to the massive amounts of cover and so many close quarter maps. Heck, even if I find a good long range position, if I get spotted by someone with an smg he just peppers me into suppression before I can get two shots off.
Once again it seems realistic enough. I mean better weapons are better weapons, but still frustrating nonetheless.
 
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Well how do you define a man-stopper ?

I can say for a fact that the 5.56mm is quite reliable at incapacitating someone very quickly with the first shot. The only reason the US military is considering replacing it is because of its' poor penetrating power, which is quite a concern with all the compounds over in Afghanistan.

As for when it hits flesh though, the 5.56mm litterally explodes once it enter the body, causing some absolutely terrifying wounds.

Anyway the larger and more violently occuring temporary cavity of rifle rounds is what in general makes them more devastating than pistol rounds, as it alone is capable of rupturing vital organs.
That's a very common misconception. 55grn ammunition in Vietnam was unstable due to a slower rifling twist and tended to tumble or even fragment on impact - making it rather lethal at close range. These days? We're using significantly more stable SS109 style 62 grain bullets, namely the M855 "green tip" armor piercing bullets. If there's one bullet that isn't going to fragment in flesh easily, there's one of them.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of guys these days are packing M4 carbines. Those 14.5'' barrels pack a lot less velocity = less fragmentation. There is evidence enough to believe that these bullets go through and though with little stopping power. Plus, bullets tend to fragment either at hyper velocity, or striking bone. So even a highly effective, fragmenting round is still a dice roll if it hits raw flesh.


On the topic, I signed up for the forum because this area was really one that I found game-breaking at times. If you're a new player, your first twenty minutes of playing involves being sniped repeatedly by guys with bolt action rifles - in other terms, three quarters of the enemy team... which encourages sticking to buildings with your SMG. Isn't that the opposite of what type of gameplay you guys want?

Personally, I think a slightly different method of quantifying stopping power would make sense. As it is, you have instant death, then slow, staggering death.

Why not give rifle bullets a stun effect?

In real life, rifles don't always kill people in a few shots, but they make a bigger temporary and permanent wound cavity, that's for sure. So, whereas your guy with a SMG would pepper you with rounds until you died, a shot to say, the lung with a bolt-action rifle, instead of killing you instantly, would just you a hair's breadth from dying and have you briefly staggered. This would accomplish two things:

If you have a bolt action and shoot a guy in the gut at close range who has an SMG, he isn't just going to kill you anyway because the bullet doesn't stop him, AND guys that get picked off at the other side of a map by a rifle everyone has don't get murdered instantly because they have a slight chance of making it to cover. WW2 was not a sniper war.

Anyway, that's a noob's thoughts.
 
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