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Tanks in ROHOS

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#141
Quick show of hands....
How many here are mechanics?
How many have ever worked on a large diesel engine?
How many here have ever worked on heavy equipment....bull dozer's, backhoes, tractors (lets not even discuss tanks)?

If you were or ever had, you would realize the futility of your argument for repairs and/or towing heavily armored vehicles under fire and/or in battlefield conditions. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but when it did it took far more resources than just a single tank crew. Imo, the arguments I've seen for implementation are preposterous and somewhat ignorant of the process and the assets involved.
 
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#142
tanks were towed all the time in combat... by other tanks. Every tank has tow cables on it. I would really like to see towing in game... just to pull tanks out of ditches or damaged tanks (ok i know... no repair but that's not the point of this particular post)

even if they don't put a Sdkfz 9 in the game that's fine... just tow cables on the tanks that inf and tankers can use.

-----------
I know its a US vehicle but its to help prove a point... the M-26 armored tank recovery vehicle... now... armored is the key word there... it is armored because they would go into hot spots...
 
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#143
Oh sure, they are towed when their engines were out, or their hydraulics are gone, the transmission is out, or the tank is simply stuck, etc. However, its kind of hard to tow a treaded vehicle when one of its tracks are broken/blown. And if one of the drive sprockets are heavily damaged and frozen/jammed, not so likely. Yeah, they may get towed out of a bog or river for a short distance (eg to a nearby more suitable location for repairs) with track/tread problems, but it won't be far. And at any rate, now you've got at least two tanks (the incapacitated one and the one towing) that are ineffective in the battle.
 
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#144
there is nutting hard about towing a treaded tank... just put in neutral:

[url]http://ww2db.com/images/vehicle_panzervi26.jpg[/URL]

Like you if the tracks are damaged... the tank will just role off of them, it won't matter if they are bent unless the are on the drive sprocket... and if the it was a direct hit the drive sprocket there ain't much of that left either. the tank will role out of its broken tracks no problem. Enough bout that...

You know as well as i do how often tanks get stuck in RO, it would be nice to have the option to pull it out. For example in Leningrad, the tanks get stuck all the time If the other could just pull it out... instead of only having one tank to fight u can have 2 in a short time. no waiting of a sapper to blow it up or the other tank to stop fighting to blow it up.. just a simple use button walk over to the other tank push use (not get in but like bayo button or something) and then reverse the other tank that simple (don't always have to reverse 2 they had hooks on both sides... yes u have to unscrew the pins but thats not like it take hours
 
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#145
Cpt-Praxius

If you are not a political person, you are missing a lot of success.
Your entire post is full of demagogy.

I've already explained your same errors in logic multiple times, so not going to repeat it again. its not my fault you are not doing your homework.

Just small thing:
Cpt-Praxius said:
because you don't like how tank tracks are damaged (realistic)
Click to expand...
Currently, tracks damage is not realistic. As I mentioned, it is very hard to do any damage to tracks, if you hit enemy tracks with direct HE hit.
It is even easier to damage tracks if you hit a ground NEAR a tank.
 
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#146
Floyd said:
Quick show of hands....
How many here are mechanics?
How many have ever worked on a large diesel engine?
How many here have ever worked on heavy equipment....bull dozer's, backhoes, tractors (lets not even discuss tanks)?

If you were or ever had, you would realize the futility of your argument for repairs and/or towing heavily armored vehicles under fire and/or in battlefield conditions. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, but when it did it took far more resources than just a single tank crew. Imo, the arguments I've seen for implementation are preposterous and somewhat ignorant of the process and the assets involved.
Click to expand...

I would have to agree.... I am not a mechanic or expert in the field, which is why I stuck to just plain common sense so far.... but indeed, there was a heck of a lot more going on when it came to fixing tanks in WWII then most realize. And the various ideas on how to at least have some sort of imitation of repair in the game for realism just seems even more arcadey then what currently is in the game.






LionbI4 said:
Cpt-Praxius

If you are not a political person, you are missing a lot of success.
Click to expand...

Well I figured I'd stay behind and help the little people. I know, my life is full of self sacrifice.... no need to thank me.

Your entire post is full of demagogy.

I've already explained your same errors in logic multiple times, so not going to repeat it again. its not my fault you are not doing your homework.
Click to expand...

Oh I have done enough of my homework that is required for me to know about in regards to how it relates to a video game. Video Game development, animation, modeling and all that hoopla was a part of my actual education in College, so I kinda need to know a thing or two about how you bring the real world into a virtual world, what will work, what won't, what would be practical in the game, and what wouldn't.

It is not I who needs to be doing homework.

Just small thing:

Currently, tracks damage is not realistic. As I mentioned, it is very hard to do any damage to tracks, if you hit enemy tracks with direct HE hit.
It is even easier to damage tracks if you hit a ground NEAR a tank.
Click to expand...

I don't remember ever disagreeing with this statement.... you took my quote out of context of the rest of the sentence it related to to try and make it mean something else. This is a clear example of you picking and choosing what was said and then trying to re-word it to suit your own argument, while ignoring everything else that proves you wrong.

The original point in that whole sentence you should have quoted was that your entire argument is based on realism, seeking more realism.... but using un-realistic approaches, which cancels out the entire argument of realism.

I have always agreed that the physics currently in the game for tanks needs to be greatly improved on, including track damage..... but I do not agree with including track/tank repair in the game.
 
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#147
I suspect TWI is on the pressure now beacuse of those tanks, it takes a lot to make all that penetration/armor data stuff, tracks and optics damaging, realistic tank movement etc. That's why probably they made a thread about what type of maps you would like to see, for better determination whether we gonna make those tanks in HOS or just concentrate on infantry. I realise how difficult it must be after people making all those complaints about tanks in RO1, and making suggestion make this, make that. It's like to make a new cod+tank simulator in 1. I personally really hope there we'll be tanks in HOS but I think that don't need to be all those BT7, PzIII, StuG, KV1 etc, to much effort. For me could be just T34/76 and PzIV F2 for the start so all the focus would be on making realistic tank elements and just leave other tanks for modders to make, just like we have now in RO Stug B or ISU152
 
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#149
Zetsumei said:
Do mechanical engineers count? :p
Click to expand...
Sure. Why not? I'm a 1980 M.E GI Bill graduate from LA Tech University.

Currently I farm and work with heavy equipment daily.
"Even tractors with the modern day rubber treads, GPS, GS2 displays, autosteer and everything. :eek: "
<said with the slightest bit of sarcasm>

attachment.php



And I did short stint in a long ago war that I don't talk about anymore.

From a realism standpoint, and in the time frame of most maps, the game would be over by the time you pulled the cables off one tank and hooked them up to another to tow them out. And once a tank rolls roll off its tread, it doesn't don't roll as easliy as you might think without them. Especially if the ground is not solid. But I do agree that the tanks in RO:OST do get "stuck" a might too easy at times. Would be nice to be able to get them out.

But don't ask me 'cause I don't know nothin 'bout nothin.:p
 
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#150
Floyd said:
...... From a realism standpoint, and in the time frame of most maps, the game would be over by the time you pulled the cables off one tank and hooked them up to another to tow them out. And once a tank rolls roll off its tread, it doesn't don't roll as easliy as you might think without them. Especially if the ground is not solid.
Click to expand...

Agreed... anybody here ever attempt to try and push multiple shopping carts through a couple of inches of snow? A lot of effort needs to be used to get them anywhere.

My point?

Shopping carts have no treds or traction, just basic hard wheels, which means no grip in snow or mud...... now picture a battle tank with similar wheels used for the tracks, weighing a hell of a lot more going through similar terrain?

It's not going to be easy to move.

Also.... the body of most tanks arn't that high off the ground.... losing your tracks will of course lower the body closer to the ground because the weight of the tank isn't spread out on the tracks, but on the individual wheels now.... hit some mud or snow and chances are you're going to be dragging the body along the ground in most places, thus making it even more difficult.... which means you're going to need more equipment and more time.
 
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#151
here is an interesting article about tank recovery in WWII...
http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/tankmaint/index.html

OK... since towing a damaged vehicle seems to be impracticable in RO... towing a stuck one is different... first off... both tanks have power. IRL taking a tow cable off a tank and attacking can't take longer than 5 min... its not that complicated, the pulling part might take longer (but thats not the point) check out this video of an Abrams recovery by another Abrams

YouTube - Marines rescue a myred tank

here is another...
YouTube - Pulling an M1A1 Abrams out of the mud at the JMTC

as we can see no special equipment is needed... nor does it take forever
 
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#153
I think the tank health system should be abolished and be replaced by some new penetration system. Or the projectile penetrates or it doesn't penetrate, I mean, if you are in a Tiger, you could take as many hits as you want without really penetrating that you'd stay alive, but if you were hit on a weak spot, you could die in a single shot from a T-34, which is pretty realistic.

I heard that nobody has ever found a Tiger with a frontal armour penetration, so Tigers should be impossible to get disabled from the frontal armour. That would encourage the T-34 driver to try to flank the Tiger using its high speed, instead of trying to destroy the Tiger in a face-to-face battle.

And I think tanks blow up too easily in ROOST. In real life, most tank crews made it out of the tank, so when the armour's been penetrated, the tank should catch fire and be totally disabled and blow up some seconds later to give the chance for the crew to leave it. Another thing that bothers me in ROOST is that we see very often tanks operating normally while on fire...
 
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#154
So, what do you think now about tanks? I think that's obvious there will be tanks ;)

I check this topic and I found interesting discussion about tank optics. It would be great if periscopes could be damaged by small arms.

According to video below it could be great feature and it would bring combined battles (infantry vs tanks) to next level.

YouTube - Panzer - Panther Tank military training film -RARE

What is interesting and what might be used in HoS:
1:00 and 3:35 - possibility to throw off grenades thru open hatch
1:28 - 2:00 tank periscope and optics can be damaged by heavy machine gun fire and replaced by commander (tank crewman can be blind for short period of time)
2:20 soldier can climb up on tank and shot thru open hatch (if is open) or throw/stick AT grenades on tank
3:48 Commander can shot with MP40 thru small hole in turret (instead turning whole turret and firing with coaxial MG)
4:15 Molotov cocktail
 
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#155
Nezzer said:
I heard that nobody has ever found a Tiger with a frontal armour penetration, so Tigers should be impossible to get disabled from the frontal armour. That would encourage the T-34 driver to try to flank the Tiger using its high speed, instead of trying to destroy the Tiger in a face-to-face battle.
Click to expand...

Dude, at last research your "facts" before posting. :rolleyes:
The Tiger1 had 102mm max frontal hull armour, most later war medium guns could easily penetrate it up to 500-1000 meters. (Russian 85mm, US 76, GB 57mm and SABOT rounds, 17 pounder, etc.)
 
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#156
85-90 degree 80-100mm frontal armor could stop most shells in 1942 or 1943. So in the beginning it was effective. What did happen later Lemon explained very well.

The biggest issue with the Tiger was a design. It was heavy, expensive tank and it wasn't enough good to bounce off most shells. Tiger was developed to late to use idea of sloppy armor from T-34. If I remember good Panther which was medium tank could bounce of more...
 
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#157
Apos said:
85-90 degree 80-100mm frontal armor could stop most shells in 1942 or 1943. So in the beginning it was effective. What did happen later Lemon explained very well.

The biggest issue with the Tiger was a design. It was heavy, expensive tank and it wasn't enough good to bounce off most shells. Tiger was developed to late to use idea of sloppy armor from T-34. If I remember good Panther which was medium tank could bounce of more...
Click to expand...

Yup, the effective frontal armour thickness of the Panther was around 160mm if I recall right.
 
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