Beta Map RO-Kriegstadt Beta 2

[EvilHobo]

And because of that the objectives are left wide open. Once a Russian, just one Russian makes it in and secures the most common Axis entrance, the Axis are almost helpless to stop it without a concerted effort, something which they will be unable to do if everyone is outside of the cap trying to pick off who they please. I have seen this happen too many times. This is one of the main reasons why I think the Axis can sometimes lose the first 6+ objectives in a span of 20 minutes, because they are unable to achieve a healthy balance of advance/satellite positions and objective fortification.

 

[SasQuatch]

A friendly tip: Don't blame players for not understanding intentions of your design. If they don't get it, your design probably doesn't reflect your intentions good enough yet.

 

[Hamburgerphil]

A friendly tip: Don't blame players for not understanding intentions of your design. If they don't get it, your design probably doesn't reflect your intentions good enough yet.

That or the players in question lack the mental capacity to make the simplest tactical decisions/observations or to work as a team. Such is the outcome of constantly playing Danzig and Odessa all the time, where the tactical options are very limited.

 

[LogisticEarth]

That or the players in question lack the mental capacity to make the simplest tactical decisions/observations or to work as a team. Such is the outcome of constantly playing Danzig and Odessa all the time, where the tactical options are very limited.

I'd probably say this is more the case than unrealized design. I still see lots of players going prone and attempting (multiple times) to crawl across an open street and not get shot. There's also always Germans hanging out in the street leading up to the Deustch Bank instead of actually going INSIDE, leaving themselves open to Russian MGers. I think some of the problems can just be attributed to the normal "GET IN THE CAPZONE" issue where people under fire just sit down instead of continuing to try and do something.

I'm not sure how I feel about this decision to shift the capzones up to the second floors. It might work out, it might not. That's why it's Beta3 and not Final I guess though

 

[Trendkill]

I have to say, that Pantherturm is a git. I just joined a game and there was only 15 minutes left after the Pantherturm had finally been put out of action . Is there any way you could reduce it's effectiveness? Less ammo or something?

 

[Major von Mauser]

I have to say, that Pantherturm is a git. I just joined a game and there was only 15 minutes left after the Pantherturm had finally been put out of action . Is there any way you could reduce it's effectiveness? Less ammo or something?

It's not so high and mighty when you have a Panzerfaust in hand. Really all you need is a diversion, let's say a T-34 with only it's front fender showing to the Turm, 9 times out of 10 the Turm will focus on just trying to kill the T-34, while an infantryman with a Faust sneaks up to the building in front or gets beside it. Problem solved.

I still think the map needs to be evened out more, right now it's very pro-German.

Edit: I was going to include reasons why it needs balancing but after 3 trys that didn't make sense I'm convinced I'm too tired to do it in this post.

 

[Trendkill]

I thought the Turm was impervious to fausts in Beta 2...?

 

[EvilHobo]

In theory, it should be. However, it would seem that what I have done merely prevents the rounds from penetrating, but damage is still done from the impact of the weapon (kind of like HE I guess you could say). Eventually, this damage will accumulate, leading to the destruction of the Pantherturm. I'm going to try to fix this, if I can do it without making it so it doesn't kill infantry on impact.

Some Pantherturm changes for Beta 3:

• Reduced gun pitch to prevent elevation of the turret too far above ground level (and hence able to strike parts of the map which I had hoped the Pantherturm would remain out of play for -- ruined building approach to Dornburg Apartments). This also means that it will be unable to fire in to the upper stories of the building to the forward-left of its position, granting Soviet infantry some place to set up.
• Ammunition reduced from 40-39 to 35-28
• I tried to make it so that Panzerfausts could penetrate the rear armor, but ended up with a problem where they simply did absolutely nothing. I came to the conclusion it can't be fixed.

Now in regard to Soviet tanks v. Pantherturm, they just need to not be idiots. Unfortunately, they do exist. They either do not load AP Ammo (also, do not blame my map for this, as I ran in to players on Gorlitz who never switched to HE ammo -- imagine were that the case) or consistently try to attack from the front, where it would seem that the Panther's armor is mostly invulnerable though theoretically it shouldn't be. If players opt to coordinate the tanks and attack the Pantherturm from the flank street with AP ammo loaded, the Pantherturm can be destroyed in a matter of seconds upon engaging it, as myself as well as clan members were able to demonstrate and attest to.

Now, one particular workaround to this issue is this:

I reduce the frontal armor value of the Pantherturm from 17 to 16, but remove the special hit points. If every penetration is something like 400 damage and the Pantherturm only has 800 hit points, it would only require two successful frontal penetrations from the T-34/85 to knock out. However, the issue here is "what if the Axis are playing against good Allied players?" In that case, the Pantherturm will have a longevity of no more than 90 seconds. I would go so far as to say I leave it as is.

So really, all you can expect for Pantherturm nerfing is a reduction in ammunition, so that should reduce its total time of operation and hence mean that it is an obstacle that can be overcome sooner rather than easier.

That or the players in question lack the mental capacity to make the simplest tactical decisions/observations or to work as a team.

My thoughts on the matter as well. People need to be able to think and have tactical awareness in order to succeed here, but a lack of this does not afflict only my map and therefore is not an issue specific to it. Idiots exist, and I am not going to cater to them.

 

[Boogerhead]

It's not so high and mighty when you have a Panzerfaust in hand. Really all you need is a diversion, let's say a T-34 with only it's front fender showing to the Turm, 9 times out of 10 the Turm will focus on just trying to kill the T-34, while an infantryman with a Faust sneaks up to the building in front or gets beside it. Problem solved.

I was playing a little (badly) last night and found a somewhat similar technique worked. I was on the right road just shooting at the very back of the Turm; because of the angle, he couldn't get me at all and kept putting rounds into the corner of the building between us.

Somewhere during this process a teammate bagged him; might've been the SU, dunno.

 

[LogisticEarth]

I still think the map needs to be evened out more, right now it's very pro-German.

This is not really true. In the past 3 games I've played, the Russians won twice, and NOT because of reinforcements being drained. It just takes Russian teamwork. There are two real hard points for them on this map. The first is the Dornberg Apartments, and the second is the Moltke. Both can go down if the Russians play smart.

 

[Trendkill]

I guess many people (me included) are used to having Berlin maps where the Germans lose 99% of the time. But you realise that the biggest thing that makes Kriegstadt so good is that fact that if don't play well and at least move as a team, you won't succeed as easily, if at all, and that is what I admire about it.

Now a question EH: I've just started doing my first map for the game Blitzkrieg and was thinking about doing a map that follows the same sort of route as Kriegstadt. Would that be okay? I mean, it was a real place after all, it's just your map is only reference I know of.

 

[EvilHobo]

Now a question EH: I've just started doing my first map for the game Blitzkrieg and was thinking about doing a map that follows the same sort of route as Kriegstadt. Would that be okay? I mean, it was a real place after all, it's just your map is only reference I know of.

That's perfectly fine, but for the sake of accuracy I would say that you increase the distance between the bridge and the end of the cityscape. I took a few hundred meters off for the sake of keeping the map at a particular size and to lessen the walking distance between objectives. Another thing is that the Alt-Moabit Strasse should meet the Moltke Bridge at an angle -- I did not go ahead and implement this angle due to technical issues.

EDIT: Check out this site for map references

 

[nike_angus]

Yesterday I sneak up to the Pantherturm. I stood on the top of the Pantherturm and I fired a Panzerfaust on it, but failed to destroy it

 

[EvilHobo]

There are no armor values for the top of the vehicle from what I know; such is likely merged with another armor value.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Finally, after all this time that the map has been out, I played as German (always picked Russian before as the teams would be stacked when I joined)

Loads of fun, that mg42 is really brutal even at extreme distance.

I concur about the Russian armor, if the Russians can coordinate that and their infantry, that is when they have a chance.

Still have yet to see the Russians win the map though...

 

[EvilHobo]

play moar

I have seen the Russians win a few times, but in many cases its either myself or someone else I know doing a lot of the work. I don't quite know what to do to give the Russians a chance, because I realize if I make it easy for pubbers I make it a joke for experienced players.

I will probably have the final Russian spawn for the Moltke Bridge changed up a bit to have it moved closer to the fighting, and have the tanks respawn in 10-15 seconds instead of 30-35 or so (I forget what I currently have it set to ). Additionally, the German spawn for the Dornburg Apartments may need to be pushed back a tad -- nothing too significant but enough to where the effect is felt.

I'm open for other suggestions. Keep in mind though I want to keep a precarious balance so factor that in to suggestions.

 

[LogisticEarth]

In agreement that the Dornberg could use it's spawn point pushed back a tad.

On the subject of tweaking the Moltke:
Right now, I think it's close to perfect. Heres some thoughts.
If the Russians have 20 minutes or so to attack the bridge, they can usually get it, regardless of German reinforcements. It seems the key is to break through into the building across from Himmler's House (the "left" building from the Russian perspective), and keep funneling troops into there. If the Russians hold that building, which is fairly easy with a few troops, the tanks can focus on just pummeling the hell out of the right building. This really keep the Germans suppressed and helps more Russians come up.

It just takes some thought and teamwork on the Russian side. I'm a dedicated pub player (I play under the handle [LLJK]_Logistic, LLJK isn't really a clan, more an association of, er, associates). I've seen some WONDERFUL pub server teamplay arise on the Moltke. Simply because it's so obvious to everyone that they're not going to Rambo thier way though it. Even with simplistic pub teamwork, it's very possible to win as the Russians. All the tools are there to take the cap, they just need to be applied.

I think most people saying it's "impossible" to capture the bridge are just piling up on the berm at the far end. You often see 6, 8 or more Russians built up on the end there. Of course one nade can take out well over half of them, and this frustrates everyone. The solution isn't the change the map, the solution would be to push forward! After all you've said you want people to have to actualy capture the bridgehead.

EDIT: When commanding the Germans I've often have to have a rolling withdrawl after the Dornbergs to conserve reinforcements so we can hold the bridge for long enough. As it stands, the Russians seem to win 40% of the time in my experience, and I've been playing this map almost exclusively over the last week. With your reducing the German reinforcements a tad, this gives the Ruskies a bit more of an edge and that should even it up.

Again, I must stress that right now many players are unfamiliar with the map. As people play it more often, the attackers will naturally gain an edge. A map that is near impossible to a new player is a map that is still challenging to someone who's played it dozens of times. I think that's exactly the way this map should stay.

 

[Floyd]

I participated in a good game last night. As Russians we were at the bridge with 50 minutes left to play. Either we took advantage of early Axis dis-array, or they intentionally fell back quickly (or a combination of both).

The Russians took out the AT guns early and were 90-95% capped several times, but just could not follow through. The Axis set up superb MG cross-fire with buddies waiting to take over the MG's in the event of their partner's death. The Axis riflemen picked off anyone waiting around for reinforcements.

By the end of the map, the Axis had fine tuned their panzerfaust ranges and were consistently knocking out tanks that were at the foot of the bridge on the Russian side. The accuracy with which the panzerfausts were dropping on top of the tanks is what did us in. We were unable to use the tanks for cover on the bridge, and by the time they could get close enough to help with the cap, they were destroyed by the long range fausts.

The Russians should have won on at least two different occasions, but failed because of their own actions. The only thing that caught my eye, was the consistency of the extremely long range panzerfaust.

 

[Steely.Glnt]

@ logistic earth- thats very true regarding the piling up on teh berm The last time I played I was trying to attack the left house as TL with the svt, nearly got in a few times but all I got was abuse from the team "DONT LEAVE THE RUBBLE" and "YOUR WASTING REINF". Way to turtle people. Often I think the russians are too keen to go to cover on the bridge rather than keeping the pressure up.

 

[LogisticEarth]

The last time I played I was trying to attack the left house as TL with the svt, nearly got in a few times but all I got was abuse from the team "DONT LEAVE THE RUBBLE" and "YOUR WASTING REINF". Way to turtle people.

The "wasiting reinforcements" statement is laughable. I really can't think of any rational situation where the Russians would run out of reinforcements on this map.
On the opposite end, everyone starts freaking out on the German side when we've got 36% reinforcements and 12 minutes left. Nobody believes me that that can hold the Moltke for upwards of 40 minutes sometimes, ha.