I really like this map a lot! It's one of my current favorites but there are 2 things that annoy me... The tracers are too dim, but they are much better then the stock tracers. Also the tanks are way too slow.
RO-Kriegstadt Beta 2
- Thread starter EvilHobo
- Start date
While I think it is a good thing that the german MG tracers are dim so it is harder to locate the machinegunners I think, after trying the map several times playing on the sovjet team, that the sovjet tracers are too dim and should be much more bright as the sovjets really don't need to worry about hiding and covering as much as the german team
The benefits for brighter tracers for the sovjet team are and in no special order:
a) Makes it easier for advancing friendly infantry to avoid running into the MG fire.
b) Makes it easier to designate targets for the tanks by infantry.
c) Seeing tracers hitting german positions is a morale booster for advancing infantry and while the fire itself may not be effective the infantry can see that fire is being poured on the enemy in support of their assault.
and finally
d) The tracers in stock maps do have an intimidating effect when they are flying around next to your head which in this map may, or may not, increase the chances of suppressing or adding more than a mild discomfort to the germans hiding in the buildings overlooking the final objective the Molkte bridge which by far is the hardest objective to cap.
Otherwise I love this map.
The benefits for brighter tracers for the sovjet team are and in no special order:
a) Makes it easier for advancing friendly infantry to avoid running into the MG fire.
b) Makes it easier to designate targets for the tanks by infantry.
c) Seeing tracers hitting german positions is a morale booster for advancing infantry and while the fire itself may not be effective the infantry can see that fire is being poured on the enemy in support of their assault.
and finally
d) The tracers in stock maps do have an intimidating effect when they are flying around next to your head which in this map may, or may not, increase the chances of suppressing or adding more than a mild discomfort to the germans hiding in the buildings overlooking the final objective the Molkte bridge which by far is the hardest objective to cap.
Otherwise I love this map.
Great map! I only have a few criticizms:
1. MN38 exclusion. Why was the MN38 taken off the map? At this point in the war the Soviets still used all 3 MN variants to an equal extent. Maybe you could re-include the MN38?
2. PaK 41/43 cover. Why are the PaK guns given virtually no cover at all? One of the things that made me love Berizina was the AT guns, they were a real threat, not one shot wonders like the PaK. One of the things that made the AT gun such a threat was that it was well covered by sandbags, whereas the Pak is given no sandbag cover making it extremely vulnerable. With your theoretics of everything being an obstacle to the Russians the PaK seems out of place, it should be giving the Russians the same amount of trouble as the PanterTurm, but instead it seems to act as a fixed Panzerfaust: one shot and it's done. Maybe you could give the Pak 41/43 some more cover?
3. German spawn distances. To me the German spawn distances from the objectives (excluding first and last spawns) seem to be way to far. Each run seems very long compared to the Russians who seem to spawn much closer then the Germans. Maybe you could make them a little bit closer?
4. Last objective cap zone. The Moltke cap zone seems to be way to far for the Russians to have a decent chance of capping it, you pretty much need to be right next to the rubble pile to cap, but then you are at the extreme threat to grenades. Maybe you could make the cap zone extend into the bridge a little bit more?
5. Bot support. There always seems to be 3-4 useless bots just crouching at spawn, pretty much a waste of space. Maybe you could include bot support?
Beyond these criticizms I think you have a great map in the works here EvilHobo, I know alot of people are puttign this map on their favorites list and I think I will too.
1. MN38 exclusion. Why was the MN38 taken off the map? At this point in the war the Soviets still used all 3 MN variants to an equal extent. Maybe you could re-include the MN38?
2. PaK 41/43 cover. Why are the PaK guns given virtually no cover at all? One of the things that made me love Berizina was the AT guns, they were a real threat, not one shot wonders like the PaK. One of the things that made the AT gun such a threat was that it was well covered by sandbags, whereas the Pak is given no sandbag cover making it extremely vulnerable. With your theoretics of everything being an obstacle to the Russians the PaK seems out of place, it should be giving the Russians the same amount of trouble as the PanterTurm, but instead it seems to act as a fixed Panzerfaust: one shot and it's done. Maybe you could give the Pak 41/43 some more cover?
3. German spawn distances. To me the German spawn distances from the objectives (excluding first and last spawns) seem to be way to far. Each run seems very long compared to the Russians who seem to spawn much closer then the Germans. Maybe you could make them a little bit closer?
4. Last objective cap zone. The Moltke cap zone seems to be way to far for the Russians to have a decent chance of capping it, you pretty much need to be right next to the rubble pile to cap, but then you are at the extreme threat to grenades. Maybe you could make the cap zone extend into the bridge a little bit more?
5. Bot support. There always seems to be 3-4 useless bots just crouching at spawn, pretty much a waste of space. Maybe you could include bot support?
Beyond these criticizms I think you have a great map in the works here EvilHobo, I know alot of people are puttign this map on their favorites list and I think I will too.
Major von Mauser said:
Yeah, I can put it back in for Beta 3.
Major von Mauser said:
Originally the plan was for PaK positions to be hidden within buildings, and I'm still toying with that idea for the bridgehead with the only real consideration being performance (don't want to have excessive BSP cuts), as well as if you have a PaK gun in a hole its position will be predictable (much like the second story AT Gun on Tractor Works at the first objective). What I had intended to do to sort of counter this issue was make the walls destructible at the Bridge so that when an Axis player got to the gun they could blow the wall to reveal the weapon, such that when it came in to play it would be manned instead of taken out by a Soviet tank through the distance fog after they capped the Hotel.
Major von Mauser said:
Well the idea here was to make the Russians seem like a relentless wave to whom reinforcements would not be an issue, whereas the Germans are low on manpower and every one of their deaths has a greater impact on the battlefield. Realistically speaking though, the spawns are about equidistant for the objectives in many cases, but the only thing is the Allies spawn and are in a combat area, whereas the Axis need to work their way toward the action. Still though, this lets the Allies put greater pressure on the Axis. Currently I think Axis walking distances are okay, but I feel that if there is any place they need improvement it would be the Hotel (perhaps).
Major von Mauser said:
The goal with the Moltke Bridge was that if people are to capture it they must control the length of it, or in this case, the opposite side of the riverbank. It's not an easy objective to take, and there is a thread open for discussion about capturing the final objective in the Tactics forum. However, just be aware that you can push further than the rubble pile, something it seems people tend to conveniently forget when attacking the bridge. That left building makes an excellent place to cap from if you manage to assault and secure it.
Major von Mauser said:
I will look in to including bot support for the final version -- the Betas will mostly be about refining gameplay and performance until I get to that point.
Atomskytten, you raise some valid points about the tracers for the Allies. I may seek to increase their brightness -- albeit marginally -- as their use in serving as "tracers" to lead to potential targets is something that would benefit teamplay.
1. I like the map.
2. I would like some more defense against the tanks, but oh well.
3. Window views are messed up but you already knew that.
4. Great map, one of our top maps. Thanks for the effort cause god knows I dont have the patience to create a new map.
Thanks.
2. I would like some more defense against the tanks, but oh well.
3. Window views are messed up but you already knew that.
4. Great map, one of our top maps. Thanks for the effort cause god knows I dont have the patience to create a new map.
Thanks.
Beta 3 before the end of the month hopefully...wish I had the time to work like I used to.
Don't hold me to it though. The official line is "when its done." Nyah.
Don't hold me to it though. The official line is "when its done." Nyah.
No problem man. Take your time. I'm really enjoying Beta 2, and haven't found a lot of bugs that hinder gameplay (apart from the PaK guns problems).
In the process of replacing the Panzerfaust spawns, I have about 51 to go...
On another note I'm going to be adjusting the skins some more. German camo is in need of a makeover (the base color needs to be more of a light brown), I made the Russian greatcoats a bit more of a gray-brown than just brown, and of course there is the issue of the Soviet tunics that needed addressing. I did some tampering with it and here was the result:
I have it using a DXT1 with alpha, I don't know if this will cause any issues in game with overlapping on other alpha textures, but I'll find out in testing I guess. In my opinion, that sash had to go, considering of course that I rarely if ever saw any worn during Berlin.
On another note I'm going to be adjusting the skins some more. German camo is in need of a makeover (the base color needs to be more of a light brown), I made the Russian greatcoats a bit more of a gray-brown than just brown, and of course there is the issue of the Soviet tunics that needed addressing. I did some tampering with it and here was the result:
I have it using a DXT1 with alpha, I don't know if this will cause any issues in game with overlapping on other alpha textures, but I'll find out in testing I guess. In my opinion, that sash had to go, considering of course that I rarely if ever saw any worn during Berlin.
Well, I have only really played this map as Russian (some reason there are always more Germans lol).
I have to say that it is wonderfully difficult. You really sorta develop a fear of those mg42's. They are brutal and you really get a feeling that this was the way they were. The modifications you have done with them are great. Please don't change them.
Also, that Panther turret is a real *****! Just playing this map and one can see why the Germans did that. Nice job!
Only real complaint at this point is near the end of the map. I might have missed it reading over the previous posts, but Germans are able to sneak over the bridge and get into the rear of the Russian Spawn. I played on Sunday and two Germans did that about 3 minutes left in the map and really shot nearly every Russian within seconds as they spawned.
I have to say that it is wonderfully difficult. You really sorta develop a fear of those mg42's. They are brutal and you really get a feeling that this was the way they were. The modifications you have done with them are great. Please don't change them.
Also, that Panther turret is a real *****! Just playing this map and one can see why the Germans did that. Nice job!
Only real complaint at this point is near the end of the map. I might have missed it reading over the previous posts, but Germans are able to sneak over the bridge and get into the rear of the Russian Spawn. I played on Sunday and two Germans did that about 3 minutes left in the map and really shot nearly every Russian within seconds as they spawned.
The map really needs better spawn protection on some points.
A point where I've been getting a lot of grief is the spawn when you capture Dornburg,the Germans can set up all around the spawn and shoot them within seconds of their spawn.
A point where I've been getting a lot of grief is the spawn when you capture Dornburg,the Germans can set up all around the spawn and shoot them within seconds of their spawn.
I am trying to get the minefield volumes working there such that the Axis must confine themselves to areas outside of the Hotel building complex. I'm looking to have something like a 15-20 second timer that will give Axis players a chance to retreat before a minefield volume activates. The spawn in question offers the Soviet players a few ways out:
To the Allied Left:
-The most obvious exit which empties out in to the street that the Pantherturm watches, and is the closest to the Pantherturm.
-And exit through the auxiliary building which encloses the Soviet spawn. Players can work their way through here and end up behind a rubble pile, and it also serves as a staging point to fight Axis troops fighting in the buildings on the opposite side of the street.
-An exit behind the auxiliary building (between it and the Dornburg Apartments).
To the Allied Right:
-The Allies need to pass through the bombed out portion of the building. This will bring them either to the street or to the interior of a multistory building. The building will allow them to shoot out in to the intersection and the bank, and in Beta 3 will not be able to be hit by the Pantherturm on the upper floors.
When/if the Allies clear the buildings on the left, they will need to secure them to prevent the Axis from counterattacking and setting up again.
I understand the need for better spawn protection and am trying to fix what is already there, which, for reasons unknown to me, fail to work. I realize that the Soviet Moltke Bridge spawn is vulnerable, so I'm going to toy with it to improve it. I still think that Germans who manage to hold on to the Packhof deserve to hold it until they are cleared out, and the Soviets shouldn't allow the Germans to actually cross the bridge to make it back in (then the Germans REALLY deserve it if they got that far).
But no worries, Beta 3 will come in due time.
To the Allied Left:
-The most obvious exit which empties out in to the street that the Pantherturm watches, and is the closest to the Pantherturm.
-And exit through the auxiliary building which encloses the Soviet spawn. Players can work their way through here and end up behind a rubble pile, and it also serves as a staging point to fight Axis troops fighting in the buildings on the opposite side of the street.
-An exit behind the auxiliary building (between it and the Dornburg Apartments).
To the Allied Right:
-The Allies need to pass through the bombed out portion of the building. This will bring them either to the street or to the interior of a multistory building. The building will allow them to shoot out in to the intersection and the bank, and in Beta 3 will not be able to be hit by the Pantherturm on the upper floors.
When/if the Allies clear the buildings on the left, they will need to secure them to prevent the Axis from counterattacking and setting up again.
I understand the need for better spawn protection and am trying to fix what is already there, which, for reasons unknown to me, fail to work. I realize that the Soviet Moltke Bridge spawn is vulnerable, so I'm going to toy with it to improve it. I still think that Germans who manage to hold on to the Packhof deserve to hold it until they are cleared out, and the Soviets shouldn't allow the Germans to actually cross the bridge to make it back in (then the Germans REALLY deserve it if they got that far).
But no worries, Beta 3 will come in due time.
A few minor changes coming up...
Addition of the MG-Beobachter (couldn't find a better word) or Spotter for the Germans, who will be equipped with binoculars and a K98k, but no grenades, making it ideal for teamplayers who actually intend to use it as it is intended...however, idiots are liable to see a new class and jump on it. The Allies have plenty of classes with binoculars/optical zoom so I do not see it as a necessity for them.
Reducing the spread of bullets on hull and coaxial MGs. This should make them more effective but I do not intend to remove the spread, just tone it down a notch. This will apply to the Soviet tanks as well as the Pantherturm.
Reducing Axis reinforcements from 500 to 485. Yikes! I would expect that they will run out slightly quicker. I think it is a good intermediary between Beta 1 (475) and Beta 2 (500). I may push it down further if, for instance, new changes upset the balance.
Adjusting Forward Command and Deutsche Bank objectives to make the cap zone start on the second floor. This should hopefully cause people to fight for the building instead of stepping inside and going prone. Not happening people. Kill, not cower!
Added some craters around the Packhof / Bridgehead area. Players will be able to take cover in these, but all related capzones now have their vertical limit at street level. Get your head out of the hole and fight for the objective!
Beta 3 is still a bit away due to some code issues, lack of time, and the necessity to convert several buildings to static mesh as well as remake portions of the Packhof.
Addition of the MG-Beobachter (couldn't find a better word) or Spotter for the Germans, who will be equipped with binoculars and a K98k, but no grenades, making it ideal for teamplayers who actually intend to use it as it is intended...however, idiots are liable to see a new class and jump on it. The Allies have plenty of classes with binoculars/optical zoom so I do not see it as a necessity for them.
Reducing the spread of bullets on hull and coaxial MGs. This should make them more effective but I do not intend to remove the spread, just tone it down a notch. This will apply to the Soviet tanks as well as the Pantherturm.
Reducing Axis reinforcements from 500 to 485. Yikes! I would expect that they will run out slightly quicker. I think it is a good intermediary between Beta 1 (475) and Beta 2 (500). I may push it down further if, for instance, new changes upset the balance.
Adjusting Forward Command and Deutsche Bank objectives to make the cap zone start on the second floor. This should hopefully cause people to fight for the building instead of stepping inside and going prone. Not happening people. Kill, not cower!
Added some craters around the Packhof / Bridgehead area. Players will be able to take cover in these, but all related capzones now have their vertical limit at street level. Get your head out of the hole and fight for the objective!
Beta 3 is still a bit away due to some code issues, lack of time, and the necessity to convert several buildings to static mesh as well as remake portions of the Packhof.
Personally I don't see anything wrong with capping while being prone / safe. After all you were able to reach the capzone.
Capping that way provokes counter-attacks: it adds some dynamic gameplay to see germans really counterattack a capzone because they have to attack some proned sovjets.
Monk.
Capping that way provokes counter-attacks: it adds some dynamic gameplay to see germans really counterattack a capzone because they have to attack some proned sovjets.
Monk.
Well in all honesty I designed my buildings with the hope/intent that they would see actual combat on the interior, and that the Russians would have to actually clear it -- or attempt to clear it -- in order for a cap to be initiated. An objective should not be taken just because you were able to get more people in to the main lobby. If they want to prevent a counterattack, they should lock down the Axis entrances instead of hiding within their own.
In other news, the Axis camo has been tweaked such that it has more of a light brown underlay as opposed to the ugly yellow-brown that it was in the previous betas. Axis players with camo might be a bit tougher to spot now. A camo M43 cap has also been completed, looks pretty cool too!
In other news, the Axis camo has been tweaked such that it has more of a light brown underlay as opposed to the ugly yellow-brown that it was in the previous betas. Axis players with camo might be a bit tougher to spot now. A camo M43 cap has also been completed, looks pretty cool too!
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It seems from when I play that many German players, if possible, would rather stay outside than fire from the buildings, also, if a building is taken but not cleared the Germans on the upper floors usually cannot attack the Russians from behind because they have to get out due to spawn protection.
I think Monk was talking more about capping from the craters. I think the capzones should be a foot below street level then like you said you cant hide at the bottom of the hole but you dont have to look like a prarie dog either. so if you were in the crater you would hae to get close to the edge.