Nerfing the xbow. How?

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9_6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2009
2,461
727
0

Yes, I think being able to 1-shot a 6 man suicidal scrake while only being able to 2-shot a pound as a lv6 sharpshooter should be a good basis.
That also makes the xbow less useful (how much?) in the hands of anything non-ss which is good.
Now what's the magic number...
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
For me, I would say work as a team doesn't mean killing one single zed together. Some teamates should be clearing small things and some one should be fighting the big ones. If the whole team is needed to fight only one zed, the small zeds will swarm in and killing everyone.


Consider this, in many people here's mind, fps should be downed by the whole team. OK, then what can a sharpshotoer do? Head shoting one which only do around 1/3 damage (if two shot is required), what about demo? One pipe bomb can do 3000+ damage already, with the bonus of nade launcher and frag nades? Demo is even better to take down fleshpounds! Is this what most of you want? Not me for sure.

Two shots is already making sharpshooters much much less useful, still it seems someone is not satisfied. When you are trying to fight a scrake with katana, some support or commando wanted to steal the kill can already result in some sirens come in and started to scream. Take about the whole team is forced to shoot only one zed...

Teamwork is not always mean doing the same thing all together. At lease in killing floor, it means do what your teamates cannot. Commandos / supports cannot bring down scrakes and fleshpounds easily, so zerker and sharpshooters do that. Zerkers cannot bring down too many crawlers, so the other perks do that. Medic is health teamates at the other side, so I heal the one beside me.
 

9_6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2009
2,461
727
0
2 shotting pounds should be very doable if you can stay focused on your target.
This is about the hardest enemy in the hardest difficulty after all. On a lower difficulty, it remains a 1 shot kill.
It is also about making the xbow less effective in the hands of non-sharpshooters.
 
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KingJoker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 15, 2009
762
3
0
Far Far Away
2 shotting pounds should be very doable if you can stay focused on your target.
This is about the hardest enemy in the hardest difficulty after all. On a lower difficulty, it remains a 1 shot kill.
It is also about making the xbow less effective in the hands of non-sharpshooters.


After thinking I've come to the conclusion touching the XBOW is a double edged blade.
A usual medic setup is MP7M and a crossbow. cool right? well if it takes 2 for a sharpie it might take three or more for a medic and that can cause problems. 2 sometimes CAN cause problems. It helps the sharpie out but it also pushes other perks out of the way simply because a medic cant really pick up any other weapon except maybe a katana to do damage. (and the costs to accommodate.) You might be thinking "but its a medic" a medic still has to have some purpose a good team is capable of healing one another so what is the purpose if all a medic does is enrage a FP and can't even kill a scrake properly?

Just my two cents.
 
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outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
Yes, I think being able to 1-shot a 6 man suicidal scrake while only being able to 2-shot a pound as a lv6 sharpshooter should be a good basis.
That also makes the xbow less useful (how much?) in the hands of anything non-ss which is good.
Now what's the magic number...


I think at this point we cannot touch the perk bonus, as it also affects 9mm, LAR, m14 and everything that can headshot. It may make 9mm able to two shot husks or something like that. Let's think...


Say we need 2600 for other zeds. Weapon dmg is 60%, hs dmg is 50%, so non-perk hs damage will be 1083.3333... ok, so lets make it 1200 for non-perk. so 6lv ss do 2880, still within the range of 2559 -2953, good. Well, base dmg is 300, so makeing hs only do 4X dmg for xbow will do the job. Much easier than I think LOL. But my caculateion may be wrong, I dont have time to double check all the datas at this moment, I must complete my essay:( Would someone do this fro me please?:IS2:


So 6-man suicidal scrake eating two xbow hs from non-perk will still have 1XX headhealth. And even a normal scrake takes two shots. And fps takes 3 shots on hard and 4 shots on suicidal from non-perk. Sounds good for me (if I made no mistake).
 
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Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
3,414
412
0
Finland
Limiting ammunition to 10-12 bolts only while keeping the damage same? Sure if you don't shoot bolts at anything that moves you could still concentrate on killing FPs with ease, but considering how many scarkes and FPs there are in hard or suicidal wave if someone wants to go overboard with their fraghunting skills they would need to scavenge their old bolts around the map after minute or so. Maybe even it has the positive side-effect that people would stop shooting individual crawlers with the crossbow constantly.

And maybe adding very huge recoil after each shot, as in its current state due virtually lack of recoil it's possible to hipshoot headshots to any major target from moderately close range while running in circles in a way that resembles almost rapidfire, or if you're just running away from Patriarch\such.
 
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KingJoker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 15, 2009
762
3
0
Far Far Away
Limiting ammunition to 10-12 bolts only while keeping the damage same? Sure if you don't shoot bolts at anything that moves you could still concentrate on killing FPs with ease, but considering how many scarkes and FPs there are in hard or suicidal wave if someone wants to go overboard with their fraghunting skills they would need to scavenge their old bolts around the map after minute or so. Maybe even it has the positive side-effect that people would stop shooting individual crawlers with the crossbow constantly.

And maybe adding very huge recoil after each shot, as in its current state due virtually lack of recoil it's possible to hipshoot any major target from moderately close range while running in circles, or if you're just running away from Patriarch\such.

I LOVE THIS IDEA! But one problem you have to take in account other perks use other weapons. I'd love the ammo lowered though possibly 30 bolts for other perks? This could be very game changing considering i usually come out with 15-4 bolts left on suicidal? though just my opinion.

I think 20 is a bit overboard considering getting your bolts back is usaully after you shoot a bolt across a hall filled with zombies >.>
 

9_6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2009
2,461
727
0
4x.
If someone could confirm this, that would be awesome.
I can propose that number as a concrete foundation for changes then.
Thanks.

After thinking I've come to the conclusion touching the XBOW is a double edged blade.
A usual medic setup is MP7M and a crossbow. cool right? well if it takes 2 for a sharpie it might take three or more for a medic and that can cause problems. 2 sometimes CAN cause problems. It helps the sharpie out but it also pushes other perks out of the way simply because a medic cant really pick up any other weapon except maybe a katana to do damage. (and the costs to accommodate.) You might be thinking "but its a medic" a medic still has to have some purpose a good team is capable of healing one another so what is the purpose if all a medic does is enrage a FP and can't even kill a scrake properly?

Just my two cents.
The purpose of the medic should not be to kill pounds. Not that easily.
He can still use the xbow to snipe sirens and husks, if only the headshot multiplier is being changed, bodyshots will also still stun husks which can be very helpful.
If scrakes don't die in 1 shot, they'll most likely get stunned giving ample time for another headshot.
It already happens with the LAR.
 

KingJoker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 15, 2009
762
3
0
Far Far Away
4x.
If someone could confirm this, that would be awesome.
I can propose that number as a concrete foundation for changes then.
Thanks.


The purpose of the medic should not be to kill pounds. Not that easily.
He can still use the xbow to snipe sirens and husks, if only the headshot multiplier is being changed, bodyshots will also still stun husks which can be very helpful.
If scrakes don't die in 1 shot, they'll most likely get stunned giving ample time for another headshot.
It already happens with the LAR.

I mostly meant it might be cooler not to have so much infleunce on forcing a sharpshooter. :/ maybe touching the multiplier on people who aren't SS would be helpful.
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
3,414
412
0
Finland
But one problem you have to take in account other perks use other weapons.

It wouldn't really hurt other perks considering any non-SS can take down scarkes with ease and FPs with moderate ease presuming you can aim with the crossbow and you're not being prepared to a kebabdish. After all the damage is unchanged so the only real problem is the player's own skill to aim and target priorisation. If you want to kill everything in sight, your choice but you're out of ammo quite soon. If you want to take down targets that actually matter or that very (rare) long line of zeds down that hall, it's your choice once again.

Only problem it has is that people who are new to the game may have trouble with it and lvl0-2 joining on suicidal with hurr durr mindset can be quite problematic, but it's not crossbow exclusive to begin with.
 

Uk1t4k3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2009
454
88
0
Singapore
I'm gonna voice out my ideas.

Crossbow damage stay the same but reduce bolts from 40 to 10. Headshot multiplier shift from weapon based to perk based instead. Meaning the crossbow cannot deal 6x headshot anymore but only sharpshooter benefit from it.

Next, crossbow price change to 1100 and no discount. Selling price of a empty bow is only 100 to prevent abuse. Full refill cost 600 that way it would still be reasonable to fire a bolt that cost 60 dosh.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
I'm gonna voice out my ideas.

Crossbow damage stay the same but reduce bolts from 40 to 10. Headshot multiplier shift from weapon based to perk based instead. Meaning the crossbow cannot deal 6x headshot anymore but only sharpshooter benefit from it.

Next, crossbow price change to 1100 and no discount. Selling price of a empty bow is only 100 to prevent abuse. Full refill cost 600 that way it would still be reasonable to fire a bolt that cost 60 dosh.


Do you really know how many scrakes and fleshpounds appear @ wave 7 on 6-man suicidal? Not to mention wave 8-10. Also, sirens and husks are also your target quite a lot of time. Only xbow can kill them fast enough when a hell lot of zeds is in front of them or someone will get hurt. So stop saying xbow ammo should go anywhere under 30, seriously, I MEANT IT.
 
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9_6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2009
2,461
727
0
Again, I won't touch the max xbow ammo so don't worry about that/don't suggest it.
 

Benjamin

Grizzled Veteran
May 17, 2009
3,650
635
113
France
I seriously doubt TWI would lower the crossbow's ammo to 25%. I don't think some of you guys are thinking straight. :confused:
 

9_6

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 4, 2009
2,461
727
0
I'll second what Benjamin said.

And what's this about LARs stunning scrakes I've never seen anyone do it
Shoot the head.
It's super effective.

You need to be a sharpshooter for it though.
 

Fang+

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2010
40
2
0
Reduce the HS multiplier(it's 7x I think right now) to 4x or 3x.
Reasoning is if the Sharpy doesn't get nerfed than that gives him the same power as a unperked Xbow right now.

Maybe a slight ammo reduction. 10 or so at the max. 30 gives you some room for error while still letting you kill that line of Clots.

Increase in cost. Up to 2000 or 1800 and give the Sharpy a cost reduction on it lowering it to 1000 or 900.
Reasoning is it's basically a Tier 3 weapon. It should have Tier 3 costs.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Evilsod

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 20, 2009
883
137
0
Ylivieska, Finland
Yes when i'd occasionally use the M14 pre nerf i'd take up the LAR and 9mm (and use them till the **** hit the fan because it was more challenging).
LAR headshot stuns a Scrake, quickswitch to M14, Scrake is a sitting duck.

XBow hits for 300 with a 7.8x multiplier (apparently) so unperked it does 2340 damage, enough to kill a Scrake all the way upto 5man Suicidal.
Lvl6 does 5616 damage, or 2808 to a an FP, 6man Suicidal FP has 2756hp.

Reducing the multiplier to 4x would mean unperked you could do 1200 which would make it a 1 shot upto 4man Normal, 2man Hard and 1man Suicidal and a 3shot on 6man Suicidal.
Lvl6 would deal 2860, making Scrakes always a 1 shot and Fleshpounds a 2 shot.

Personally i think the way Sharpshooters damage bonus' work need changing. Remove the 10-60% bonus damage because the Sharpshooter shouldn't get any benefits for not hitting his mark... ie the head. Change it to a 20-100% headshot bonus since the damage doesnt increase between lvl5 and 6.
That way with a 4x multiplier the lvl6 SS would deal 2400, making all but 6man Suicidal Scrake a 1shot kill and Fleshpounds a 3shot kill on 5/6man Suicidal. Though the 3rd shot would be doing very little damage so the rest of the team should be helping out after the first shot is fired to make the 2nd shot a guaranteed kill.

I prefer the last choice because it means either the team leaves the SS to struggle with a 3shot kill or the team helps out and makes it a 2 shot kill. The only harsh part is maybe the 2shot Scrake on 6man Suicidal.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
Seriously? Two shot killing fleshpounds on 6-man suicidal still not enough!?!?!?!?!???????????? And two shot to kill scrake is ridiculous, REALLY ridiculous. Anyone with a katana can down a scrake with ease. And a 6lv ss need two shots??? Please dont make to perk suddenly have no use AT ALL.

If you need 3 shot to kill 6-man suicidal fleshpound, the first two shot will just leave a fleshpound still having a hell lot of total hp. Then no one will paly sharpshotoer. Cos a demo do much more effectively to take down fps. And after the first two shots, you must pray that the fp will not jump around cos of obstacles or not running straight because he is going after another teamate. NO, NO, and NOOOOOOO for 6lv sharpshooter 3 shotting fleshpounds.
 
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Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
Personally I always felt the Headshot multiplyer was too high on the Xbow. IMO Sharpshooters should be the ones dealing a HUGE amount of damage to the Fleshie, but certainly not 1 shotting them.

I'm not expert on the code, but as far as I understand it, headshots deal damage to both the body and the head, who each have their own values. All damage done to the head is subtracted off the head health of the specimen and the regualr health.

Heads obviously have less health than the actual specimen, 6 man suicidal Fleshpounds have the highest at 3675 Hp. (Scrake is only 3418HP).

Now if I remember rightly the Xbow has a 6x headshot multiplyer (Someone batted around 7.8 somewhere, but I'm using 6 since it only amplifies the arguement if I'm wrong). Unperked the Xbow using this model deals 300 for a body shot and 1800 for a headshot. That is pretty damned high in any perks hands :confused:

Put that in a Sharpshooters hands and you get 1800 x 1.6 x 1.5 = 4320 damage in 1 headshot... which is what makes the Xbow so unbelievably overpowered.

Only class that even gets into the league I believe is Demo with 2400 damage on a pipebomb, and 1496 on a L.A.W. headshot. Even Support with his double Hunting Shottie gank is only 950 and that is assuming every pellet hits for a headshot... (think they have a 1.1 headshot multiplyer... which if not makes them even worse.)

At the very least Xbow should to be brought down to x5 headshot multiplyer which would give 3600 damage. Not enough to decap a 6man Sui Fleshie in 1 shot, but it robs it of over half its health, and 1 headshot with pretty much anything else will decap it. Of course it will still be enough to decap a Scrake, so seems about right to me.