Nerfing the xbow. How?

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SMIFF

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 19, 2009
1,815
804
0
It should take AT LEAST 3 headshots and some deagle rounds for a level 6 SS to take out a 6 man Suicidal Fleshpound.

What is the base damage of the Crossbow?
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
I only see people keep pushing out their own view without considering anything else or other "already there" opinions. I already done all the maths for a main reference for 9_6 to consider (good thing he is paying attention for my math, and this is the most important thing) and suddenly someone throwing out some numbers suggest that fps and scrakes have 3XXX headhealth which I never seen them anywhere since I played kf and reading posts on forums.

I suddenly found myself lost. If no one is standing out to give us the accrate numbers, none of us can make any math to find out how the numbers should be adjusted. (All zeds datas of my math are from killing floor wiki which up till now I never see anyone saying those datas are wrong, at least for zeds' health)

However, at least I know, again, THERE IS NO WAY xbow can do serious damage to total health of fleshpounds without decaping one. And one shot decap = 1 shot killing. MEANWHILE, two shots killing will make the first shot do too less dmg to total health, and three shots killing will make the first two shot do too less dmg to total health. (Sadly people will keep on ignoring)
 
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outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
It should take AT LEAST 3 headshots and some deagle rounds for a level 6 SS to take out a 6 man Suicidal Fleshpound.

What is the base damage of the Crossbow?


This is just crazy. Finally someone suggest 3 shot should not killing a fleshpound.

So, each shot cannot go over 917 dmg............... so one shot to non-fp zeds do only 1224 dmg. Scrakes takes 3 shots...... from a 6lv ss......

non-perk hs dmg = 510........ (zeds' data still from kf wiki, proof that wrong before challenge)


I am really glad you are not the one who make decisions.
 

nath2009uk

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2009
1,368
174
0
England, UK
It should take AT LEAST 3 headshots and some deagle rounds for a level 6 SS to take out a 6 man Suicidal Fleshpound.

What is the base damage of the Crossbow?

This so much. The hardest zeds in the game turn out to be the Husk and the Clot a lot of the time. I understand that the Sharpshooter should deal with the larger zeds, but lining up headshots is way too easy, and he has Dual Handcannons or the fast firing M14 EBR for lesser Zeds.

One could always edit the Fleshpound straight up for resistance to everything, so he can actually be feared, while not nearfing the Xbow its self.
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
suddenly someone throwing out some numbers suggest that fps and scrakes have 3XXX headhealth which I never seen them anywhere since I played kf and reading posts on forums.

---

However, at least I know, again, THERE IS NO WAY xbow can do serious damage to total health of fleshpounds without decaping one.

Since you asked -

Fleshpound Base Head Health: 1225
Additional Player Increase: 175 (x5 for 5 extra players)
Suicidal Difficulty Modifyer: 1.75

1225 + (175 x 5)
= 1225 + 875
= 2100

Suicidal = 2100 x 1.75
= 3675

Unless I've got some bogus data, my maths still adds up.

----

3600 damage is over half the health of a fleshpound gone without decapping.
 
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outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
Since you asked -

Fleshpound Base Head Health: 1225
Additional Player Increase: 175 (x5 for 5 extra players)
Suicidal Difficulty Modifyer: 1.75

1225 + (175 x 5)
= 1225 + 875
= 2100

Suicidal = 2100 x 1.75
= 3675

Unless I've got some bogus data, my maths still adds up.

----

3600 damage is over half the health of a fleshpound gone without decapping.


What I know is:
Total health

The base hit points of the Fleshpound is 1500; its total health on normal with one player, for every additional player 375 hit points is added. This figure is then multiplied by 0.5 on beginner, 1 on normal, 1.35 on hard, and 1.75 for suicidal.

Head health

The base hit points of the Fleshpound's head is 700; its total health on normal with one player, for every additional player 175 hit points is added. This figure is then multiplied by 0.5 on beginner, 1 on normal, 1.35 on hard, and 1.75 for suicidal.

Again, I don't know how kf wiki found these data. So if you have more evidence I would like to see.


I just want to know the REAL data, not to proof who's right who's wrong. We NEED TO give some numbers to 9_6 before tomorrow.
 
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Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
Ahhhhh bollocks, misread the data, yeah your right, essentially I applied the 1.75 multiplyer twice. Man I been screwing up alot of calculations lately, objeciton withdrawn.

So therefore I revise my proposed headshot multiplyer to either

x3.5 = 2520 overall headshot damage
or
x4 = 2880 overall headshot damage

to go up against the Fleshounds 2756.25 head health :)

EDIT: which I think is the plan anyway :)
 
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Evilsod

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 20, 2009
883
137
0
Ylivieska, Finland
Seriously? Two shot killing fleshpounds on 6-man suicidal still not enough!?!?!?!?!???????????? And two shot to kill scrake is ridiculous, REALLY ridiculous. Anyone with a katana can down a scrake with ease. And a 6lv ss need two shots??? Please dont make to perk suddenly have no use AT ALL.

If you need 3 shot to kill 6-man suicidal fleshpound, the first two shot will just leave a fleshpound still having a hell lot of total hp. Then no one will paly sharpshotoer. Cos a demo do much more effectively to take down fps. And after the first two shots, you must pray that the fp will not jump around cos of obstacles or not running straight because he is going after another teamate. NO, NO, and NOOOOOOO for 6lv sharpshooter 3 shotting fleshpounds.

2 shot Scrake i'll agree with is wrong for a lvl6 SS, but 3 shot FP... no. I've been going by the wiki for all my calculations which isn't exactly 100% guaranteed accuracy but i've no idea how to read the SDK to find out myself.

At the most i'd agree with 120% headshot bonus 20% per SS level, and a 4x multiplier. If you really want to increase (or decrease) the bonus then fine, i think 110% or more (ish) should cause 1hit Scrake kills and higher will revert to 2 shot FPs, but the 4x multiplier needs to be fixed. Any more and it starts to get too easy for non Sharpshooters again.

Is the general opinion that the SS body shot and headshot bonus should be combined into a larger headshot bonus?
 

Soanos

Member
Jul 2, 2009
569
8
18
Finland
First M14 was too powerful, yes, that was true, and it was justifiable to nerf it.
But what is this about Crossbow now? Sharpshooter still too powerful?

I wouldn't touch the Crossbow damage myself, right now it seems to be pretty balanced. It still has serious drawbacks, such as if you miss the FleshPounds head with your first bolt you will enrage it and be fooked unless you act quickly. This makes it a good weapon for a competent sharpshooter with confidence to his skill to take the shot. This is why many less experienced players opt for the M14 for ability to spam the FleshPound down.

Cutting down ammo supply? Well, considering the Handcannon, the only other purchasable sidearm only has 96 cartridges it would severely cripple the Sharpshooters usability again. If the number of bolts was reduced, I would not reduce it by more than 5 or 10. But if the number of bolts was reduced, I would like to see the Sharpshooter getting more ammunition for his Handcannon.

Yes, I know SS has his 9mm, but it is pretty useless against Husks and Sirens.

And last, but not least, I usually play on Hard difficulty, even though my perks are all lvl6 and I should go for Suicidal. This is my decision because I prefer playing the game with my friends who have played the game a lot less and their perks are not high enough for Suicidal.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
Let's look at it again, if 3 shots is needed, max dmg to fp's head is 1377 per shot.

So dmg done on normal zeds' head is 1836. Scrakes still have 723 head health. (I haven't touch anything about bonus of sharpshooter yet, just headshotting dmg)

So, if you want fps to go down in three shots, scrakes go down in two. If you want scrake being 1 shoted, fp down in two shots. What you suggest is impossible without changing the zeds' data. Which I have made myself clear in the main post, that's a HUGE project.
 

Evilsod

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 20, 2009
883
137
0
Ylivieska, Finland
First M14 was too powerful, yes, that was true, and it was justifiable to nerf it.
But what is this about Crossbow now? Sharpshooter still too powerful?

I wouldn't touch the Crossbow damage myself, right now it seems to be pretty balanced. It still has serious drawbacks, such as if you miss the FleshPounds head with your first bolt you will enrage it and be fooked unless you act quickly. This makes it a good weapon for a competent sharpshooter with confidence to his skill to take the shot. This is why many less experienced players opt for the M14 for ability to spam the FleshPound down.

Cutting down ammo supply? Well, considering the Handcannon, the only other purchasable sidearm only has 96 cartridges it would severely cripple the Sharpshooters usability again. If the number of bolts was reduced, I would not reduce it by more than 5 or 10. But if the number of bolts was reduced, I would like to see the Sharpshooter getting more ammunition for his Handcannon.

Yes, I know SS has his 9mm, but it is pretty useless against Husks and Sirens.

And last, but not least, I usually play on Hard difficulty, even though my perks are all lvl6 and I should go for Suicidal. This is my decision because I prefer playing the game with my friends who have played the game a lot less and their perks are not high enough for Suicidal.

9mm is an insanely powerful weapon and is hugely underestimated by practically everyone who plays SS. On Hard noone is trying to change the Xbow from a 1 hit kill on Scrakes and it would be a comfortable 1 or 2 hit kill depending on the number of players for FPs. There are not that many FPs that using 2 bolts to kill instead of 1 is going to drain you dry... and in any case, Husks are prime Xbow targets because they are deadly at all ranges. Sirens are only dangerous close range and are easily in range of Dual Handcannon spam.

Let's look at it again, if 3 shots is needed, max dmg to fp's head is 1377 per shot.

So dmg done on normal zeds' head is 1836. Scrakes still have 723 head health. (I haven't touch anything about bonus of sharpshooter yet, just headshotting dmg)

So, if you want fps to go down in three shots, scrakes go down in two. If you want scrake being 1 shoted, fp down in two shots. What you suggest is impossible without changing the zeds' data. Which I have made myself clear in the main post, that's a HUGE project.

Huh? I was under the impression (going by the pdf sheet floating around in general discussion which i'd believe more than the wiki) that Fleshpounds have a 50% resistance to Xbow damage. So a 1377 damage shot to an fp is still 2754 to a normal zed which i think is always a 1 hit kill to a Scrake.
 

Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
Yeah I have to agree with OoRM, 1 shotting Scrakes and 2 shotting Fleshpounds sounds pretty perfect to me. Although to achieve that the Xbow would actually need a multiplyer between 3.6 and 3.75.

300 x 3.60 x 1.6 x 1.5 = 2592
300 x 3.75 x 1.6 x 1.5 = 2700

As OoRM said head health for Scrake is 2563.75 and Fleshie has 2756.25.

I'd go with 3.75 personally. Keep the Xbow in contention more against the Patty :)

EDIT: and no Fleshpound is resistant to small little ole bullets :)
 
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Evilsod

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 20, 2009
883
137
0
Ylivieska, Finland
EDIT: and no Fleshpound is resistant to small little ole bullets :)

I was under the impression an FP could survive a Xbow headshot on 6man Suicidal until lvl6 Sharpshooter, and the damage numbers line up perfectly to make that the case IF the Xbow deals half damage. The table says 75% is only for LAR and M14, not Xbow.

Unfortunately i can't test that theory to see if i'm hallucinating or not :p
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
Huh? I was under the impression (going by the pdf sheet floating around in general discussion which i'd believe more than the wiki) that Fleshpounds have a 50% resistance to Xbow damage. So a 1377 damage shot to an fp is still 2754 to a normal zed which i think is always a 1 hit kill to a Scrake.


I do see a line on that PDF saying

Damage Multipliers to Fleshpounds
Weapon Damage Multiplier
Grenades (Frag only) X2.0
Pipebomb X2.0
M79 Grenade Lancher X1.25
M32 Multiplie Grenade Launcher X1.25
All Shotguns, Lever-Action Rifle, Crossbow and M14 X0.75
All other weapons X0.5


Copy FAIL. I better post photo
kfdata.jpg

 
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Undedd Jester

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 31, 2009
3,065
881
0
Sheffield, England
I was under the impression an FP could survive a Xbow headshot on 6man Suicidal until lvl6 Sharpshooter, and the damage numbers line up perfectly to make that the case IF the Xbow deals half damage. The table says 75% is only for LAR and M14, not Xbow.

Unfortunately i can't test that theory to see if i'm hallucinating or not :p

I think the problem before was that the SS could 1 shot FP's before, but because the head hitboxes were screwed up you had to shoot over their shoulder or soemthing, so few people could actually do it. Then again, I can't use the SDK either, so not really sure :)
 
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Entangler

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 12, 2009
474
216
0
32
Sydney, Australia
It is 0.5 for the Crossbow. The 0.75 mentioned in the PDF is normally applied to headshots from weapons with a headshot damage multiplier of 1.5 or more. However, Crossbows fall victim to an implementation quirk here: Although their headshot damage multiplier is effectively 7.8, it's actually made up of two parts - the standard one in the damage type, which is what all weapons normally use, and another one in the projectile. ZombieFleshPound.TakeDamage() doesn't know anything about the latter; it only checks the multiplier in the damage type, which in the Crossbow's case is only 1.3 - not enough to qualify for the lesser resistance.

EDIT: And if you read the PDF's thread, its author has since admitted to the mistake.
 
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outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
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It is 0.5 for the Crossbow. The 0.75 mentioned in the PDF is normally applied to headshots from weapons with a headshot damage multiplier of 1.5 or more. However, Crossbows fall victim to an implementation quirk here: Although their headshot damage multiplier is effectively 7.8, it's actually made up of two parts - the standard one in the damage type, which is what all weapons normally use, and another one in the projectile. ZombieFleshPound.TakeDamage() doesn't know anything about the latter; it only checks the multiplier in the damage type, which in the Crossbow's case is only 1.3 - not enough to qualify for the lesser resistance.

EDIT: And if you read the PDF's thread, its author has since admitted to the mistake.


It is funny that I remember I can decap (not killing) a 6-man hard fp with xbow. I forget I do 2 or 3 head shots. And no matter I use X6 hs bonus or 7.8, 50% or 75% resistance, the decap without dying thing should not happen.

There's something behind the codes, I am sure. It probable be the backstabbing system.

YouTube - Killing Floor - Melee Damage is Incorrectly Calculated[/URL]
(Not my vedio)


I dont remember number of players correctly, but I clearly remember in that game I can one shot killing bloats with 6lv ss, and only decaping them when shooting them from behind.

So... it is hard to give a perfect number for the change now.
 

Evilsod

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 20, 2009
883
137
0
Ylivieska, Finland
I don't ever recall decapping an FP from full hp in a single shot and it surviving to walk around afterwards. As you say with the 2x shot damage +25% mechanic for a decap, i don't think its possible for the fp to survive if you decapped it in 1 shot. I have numerous times decapped it and it kept coming at me but only ever as a non-sharpshooter.

Well i'm gonna stick with 4x multiplier, body damage removed and 100-140% headshot multiplier.
 

outofrealman

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 29, 2009
1,848
336
0
I don't ever recall decapping an FP from full hp in a single shot and it surviving to walk around afterwards. As you say with the 2x shot damage +25% mechanic for a decap, i don't think its possible for the fp to survive if you decapped it in 1 shot. I have numerous times decapped it and it kept coming at me but only ever as a non-sharpshooter.

Well i'm gonna stick with 4x multiplier, body damage removed and 100-140% headshot multiplier.
"It is funny that I remember I can decap (not killing) a 6-man hard fp with xbow. I forget I do 2 or 3 head shots."

Also, I think we should touch the numbers as few as possible due to the time limit. Also, changing the perk bonus you have to have a whole set of number from 0lv to 6lv. And using the own perk weapon should gain damage bonus, or players will just move to other weapons, and you will make Ak and SCAR too strong in headshoting too.

Quick numbers I can grab:
SCAR do 58x1.1x2.4 = 153.12 dmg per shot
 
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