Let's make a difference

[9_6]

Just some last words before it goes.

Are we sure 1 block less is enough for the LAW?

Nope. Not in the slightest are we sure about that.
Everyone wants something else, for some that 1 block is too much already.
I'm just sticking with it.

And frag nades is not in the list?

They were, now they are in the ammo pricelist. Their price drops to 20 from 40.

 

[KingJoker]

It would be nice if grenades were lowered to 20 each but meh, noone uses them because specimens avoid em, not cos they suck... oh wait

LAW should be a powerhouse on its own, but Pipebombs are an integral part of the Demo and with only that weapon you require something more... personal for defensive purposes. But allowing the M79 too is too much when really the LAW should be considered powerful enough to be worth the tradeoff for lacking a more versatile weapon.

Joker the LAW isn't even close to viable... it does a beautiful job of creating lots of red mist (and white smoke) with its increased range but as of now its nothing more than a tool to thin out the enemy ranks, which lets be honest the M32 and M79 can do better and for longer periods. 15 ammo is too limited even on Hard, never mind Suicidal and its damage isn't high enough to be a decent assist for Fleshpounds.

Its good fun, but not viable.

I still the LAW might be better and is better because of one of it's features- Stunning. It does a lot of damage in a huge radius and can stun scrakes. Might piss off a few fleshpounds but a LAW's reload compared to a 3 M32 (or two) shells. < LAW

I think the LAW is finally worth what it is cost.... 899.

 

[-[SiN]-bswearer]

so far, i agree with every proposed change in the first two posts except for the katana auto-fire (which has already been confirmed that it will never change).

is that list currenly up to date?

 

[9_6]

so far, i agree with every proposed change in the first two posts except for the katana auto-fire (which has already been confirmed that it will never change).

is that list currenly up to date?

Yes.
I won't make any huge changes to it anymore.
It's pretty much done.

 

[Old Ranger]

Imo autofire for melee weapons dont suit at all, it has no feeling. I Hope that any mele weapon has no autofire.

Autofire only suits for guns of certain type.

In my opinion the Flamethrower doesn't need an extra Canister... or a weight drop to be honest. The Mac 10 already addresses issues like ammo and Spike damage, and whether people think the Mac is overpowered or not, the Flamethrower is fine.

Giving the FT more ammo just makes the Firebug a spray and pray class with no thought for conservation or caution.

Yes agreed. Flamethrower is fine.

Im level 4 firebug, and ammo lasts just fine Hard, wave 10, six men. Of course if you have to use canister to FP, it wont last, but its not Firebug job to take FPs alone.

 

[nutterbutter]

Why Drew Barrymore is the problem in KF's expansions

Why Drew Barrymore is the problem in KF's expansions

I think the problem is Charlie's Angels 2. The first Charlie's Angels movie was a surprise hit that no one saw coming. It was fresh, unexpected, and full of action. When Charlie's Angels 2 came out, it was obvious that they thought "Let's take all the cool things in the first movie and just give them more of those." The problem is that the balance was off. While there were more guns, more action, more semi-nude bodies, and more explosions there wasn't any lulls in the action to appreciate the action. The balance was off. With the updates, TWI has given the players more cash, bigger guns, more bullets, and more explosions but they haven't taken anything away or increased the difficulty to balance the additions.

I believe the big balance issue in the game is cash. There is simply too much of it in the game. Players get much too powerful weapons in the game much too early. Players are able to stockpile weapons which throws off the balance even more.

Think about this. Which games do you remember? Do you remember that game from last week when the entire team of lvl 6 players stood in a single room and fired down the hallway for 10 waves? Or do you remember that game from 6 months ago when the entire team was killed and you had to run around picking up weapons, trying to scavenge ammo, and where you almost died 3 times but you pulled out the win? Of course you remember the latter. I'm not suggesting that Tripwire make the game so that every wave is a suicidal fight, but to raise the difficulty significantly to balance the increased firepower.


Spawning

I think the problem starts with the spawning of weapons with the players. Players spawn with much too powerful weapons. This leads to extremely easy waves and excess cash because the players don't need to spend money to purchase weapons so they get tier 4 weapons quickly.

Players below level 5 should not spawn with anything other than 9mm and grenades.

Level 5 perks spawn with lowest possible perked weapon.

Medic - MP7
Berserker - Machete
Support - Shotgun
Sharpshooter - Single cannon
Commando - Bullpup
Berserker - Machete
Firebug - Flamer
Demo - M79 (I think the m79 is too powerful, but it is the least perked weapon)

Level 6 perks spawn with level 5 weapon + armor.

Players also spawn with no cash. Make them work for their cash.

This keeps cash to a minimum and the lower waves interesting because the bigger weapons aren't in play immediately.


9mm Bonus for all perks

Because lower level perks don't spawn with a perked weapon, I recommend carrying the sharpie's 9mm bonus over to other perks only up to sharpie lvl 3 no matter the perk's level. So other perks can have up to sharpie lvl 3 perk bonus only on the 9mm.

I think this will promote several beneficial behaviors. This will promote headshots. This will give players who spawn as other perks some type of weapon when they spawn. This will also give the player a decent weapon when they are out of ammo for their perked weapon.

So when a player has reaches sharpie perk level 1, 2 or 3, it applies to only the 9mm across all of their perks.


MP7-ize all weapons

I think TWI hit the solution to the ammo problem with the MP7. As the perk increases, the magazine capacity gets bigger. This also fixes the problem of other perks building a "super-char" by taking the medic or zerker and adding a mix of fully loaded weapons.

After all, how many players are going to pick non-perked weapons when he doesn't get the full benefit? Much less ammo means a perked weapon is going to be better for that perk than a non-perk weapon without bonuses.


Reduce the cash in the game

There is too much cash in the game. Way too much. Too much cash allows for players to purchase tier 4 weapons by wave 2. Using tier 4 weapons in early waves allows players to generate tons of cash that they can give away and soon every player has all of their wanted weapons, full armor, and weapons stashed on the deck and the game isn't a challenge.

Here are my suggestions to lower the amount of cash

1) Remove the ability to repair armor. Make people decide between offense and defense. Make people decide whether to choose the big gun and go with the 40% armor they have or buy new armor and simply refill their current weapons. Make players decide if they want to spend 300 or try to make it through the wave with 65% armor.

2) Reduce the huge discounts for perked weapons. Give some discount but not the huge discounts currently in the game. No way someone should be able to purchase a katana, m14, or similar weapon after wave 1.

3) Double the price of ammo and give a 50% discount to refilling perked weapons.

4) Make the xbow's cost equivalent to its power. Make the xbow cost 1k and each bolt 50. Make players think long and hard before shooting that bolt at a gorefast.


Other suggestions

If a player equips a non-perked weapon, that weapon's weight goes up by one. So a katana weighs 3 to a berserker, but 4 to every other perk. This will help eliminate players mixing ultra-powerful weapons with perks (zerker & medic) that aren't supposed to use those weapons.

Ammo boxes reload only a single randomly chosen carried weapon.

 

[outofrealman]

Yes.
I won't make any huge changes to it anymore.
It's pretty much done.

Good to hear that. So I don't need to explain the same thing countless times cos those ridiculous suggestions is not, and will not, be considered.

 

[Third Eye]

Other suggestions
If a player equips a non-perked weapon, that weapon's weight goes up by one. So a katana weighs 3 to a berserker, but 4 to every other perk. This will help eliminate players mixing ultra-powerful weapons with perks (zerker & medic) that aren't supposed to use those weapons.

I think this is just going too far to stop random weapons on random perks to stop a superman strengthened character. It's as stupid as your ZED ideas.

 

[Xandos88]

just checked this and I want to say my opinion about xbow, don't know if it has already been written (is too late to read the entire thread, and I'm too tired to do that now, trust me I'll read it tomorrow very carefully), if so "noob" me xD.

What about "non accurate shots"? I mean if you are a medic, and you buy a xbow when you aim the sight is moving so damn randomly, making it unable to use, and with sharpshooter, perk level by level, sligtly improve your accuracy with it, at level 6 is just like it is now

 

[9_6]

@nutter: You're late to the party. The list is pretty much done now, only the order of the points and their wording (because my engrish is not that gud) can be changed at this point.
No one commented on that though so... I'll just call this final then.
Sorry but I need to wrap this up today.
There may still be 13 hours left but it's almost 3AM over here t_t

Sleep is overrated but I heard it can sometimes be good so perhaps I should try that out now.
I might not be able to wait until the deadline tomorrow so I'll send Xienen the PM linking to the list post right now.

DONE

 

[meatloaf]

Oh and btw, the text + according loading screen is off (non-congruent) 50% of all the times. I think it's some kind of small bug that could be solved.

i don't think they're out of sync, it just gives random hints with random loading screens, just like ut2004.

i remember when it showed a crawler and it described it was a human spliced with a spider. "kind of worked too"

it was wave 11/10 when i joined and they were fighting the patriarch, they wiped and i saw another loading screen, this time it was a clot and it said "shooting the fleshpound with little weapons just makes it angry, think big powerful weapons for this one.

then we started and i saw a few clots coming towards me and got grabbed by them, i actually almost died though

 

[Rhenna]

...Sorry but I need to wrap this up today.
There may still be 13 hours left but it's almost 3AM over here t_t

Sleep is overrated but I heard it can sometimes be good so perhaps I should try that out now.

Thank you, 9_6. Sweet dreams.

 

[Evilsod]

I still the LAW might be better and is better because of one of it's features- Stunning. It does a lot of damage in a huge radius and can stun scrakes. Might piss off a few fleshpounds but a LAW's reload compared to a 3 M32 (or two) shells. < LAW

I think the LAW is finally worth what it is cost.... 899.

Reload time is irrelevant. You can fire 6 M32 and 1 M79 grenade in the time it takes the LAW to fire twice, assuming you've had chance to retreat to ensure the raging FP isn't going to make you blow yourself up. There shouldn't be a need to fire again so soon afterwards. It'll always be hugely limited by its ammo supply.

That and the fact the rocket hardly ever goes where you ****ing aim it. Gets irritating aiming at somethings torso only for the rocket to pass clear over its head.

 

[Olivier]

Yeah, sometimes the rocket will get through the FP. So whenever i use it (which is pretty rare since i dont play for fun anymore), i always aim in front of him, but like Evilsod said, the rocket doesnt always go where you were aiming

 

[Mataro]

This HAS to make the list.

The Mac-10's, a strange choice for the Firebug to begin with (given the availability of dragonbreath munitions for shotguns and the like).. Should be akimbo-able. They are currently held with one hand. Event he 9mm is held with two before akimboing them. There really is no reason not to be able to akimbo Mac-10's. Semo-auto fire would suffer the same as on the pistols or handcannons, and full-auto would virtually just become a full on spray in a given direction. As it stands, going into iron sights, you can actually put a lot of shots on target down range at full auto. With two of these, it would really just be hallway clearers. However, it would be fitting, and a hell of a lot of fun.

The boosted damage would be balanced by the already low maximum ammo capacity, and the complete and utter lack of accuracy on full auto. Plus it takes up eight blocks. Would it be a good performance weapon? There's better options. However, it still would fit the profile for a machine pistol, and would be insane fun to have available. Given that it would be far from gamebreaking, I was actually a bit surprised I was not able to akimbo them to begin with.

Additionally, Firebug's perk requires a change from "Damage with Flamethrowers" to "Damage with Fire." This way it properly encompasses incendiary grenades and the Mac-10's. As currently the grenades give you experience, and the Mac-10's do not. Rendering their usefulness as a true perk-oriented weapon on par with the LAW for the Support (which has been changed of course. But at that point, the only bonus was you could hold it and something else, the Mac-10's only point is that it is incendiary with the Firebug, and has larger clips).

 

[Evilsod]

Yeah, sometimes the rocket will get through the FP. So whenever i use it (which is pretty rare since i dont play for fun anymore), i always aim in front of him, but like Evilsod said, the rocket doesnt always go where you were aiming

Indeed... though it did pay off last night when i jumped over a Husks fireball, landed and shot a rocket at its torso as Zed Time started and got to watch the rocket collide perfectly with its face making it backflip

 

[Braiken]

This HAS to make the list.

The Mac-10's, a strange choice for the Firebug to begin with (given the availability of dragonbreath munitions for shotguns and the like).. Should be akimbo-able. They are currently held with one hand. Event he 9mm is held with two before akimboing them. There really is no reason not to be able to akimbo Mac-10's. Semo-auto fire would suffer the same as on the pistols or handcannons, and full-auto would virtually just become a full on spray in a given direction. As it stands, going into iron sights, you can actually put a lot of shots on target down range at full auto. With two of these, it would really just be hallway clearers. However, it would be fitting, and a hell of a lot of fun.

The boosted damage would be balanced by the already low maximum ammo capacity, and the complete and utter lack of accuracy on full auto. Plus it takes up eight blocks. Would it be a good performance weapon? There's better options. However, it still would fit the profile for a machine pistol, and would be insane fun to have available. Given that it would be far from gamebreaking, I was actually a bit surprised I was not able to akimbo them to begin with.

Additionally, Firebug's perk requires a change from "Damage with Flamethrowers" to "Damage with Fire." This way it properly encompasses incendiary grenades and the Mac-10's. As currently the grenades give you experience, and the Mac-10's do not. Rendering their usefulness as a true perk-oriented weapon on par with the LAW for the Support (which has been changed of course. But at that point, the only bonus was you could hold it and something else, the Mac-10's only point is that it is incendiary with the Firebug, and has larger clips).

First of all it isn't really a balance issue, you should make a thread about it. Secondly the MAC10 is a 2 handed weapon (just look at other players holding it), though I know in 1st person it shows that you are only holding it with 1 hand. Also MAC10 gives you experience unless you shoot whole magazines into a clot. Just use semi-auto and shoot only 1 bullet into the mobs and let them burn. Also for leveling flamethrower is a lot better choice

 

[KingJoker]

Indeed... though it did pay off last night when i jumped over a Husks fireball, landed and shot a rocket at its torso as Zed Time started and got to watch the rocket collide perfectly with its face making it backflip

This has never occurred for me I've never once had collision issues and I rarely aim at specific ZEDs considering the spread might not go everwhere. like shooting a HUSK or behind the husk.;O My rocket goes wherever i want it O_O unless im quick scoping xD the scope is perfect in my opinion, maybe a stalker will get in the way and get you killed but whatever.
I still think the LAW is better in terms of damage and use, the only thing the m32 and M79 have over it is ammo.


SO yeah uh LAW RULES >:O

 

[Mataro]

First of all it isn't really a balance issue, you should make a thread about it. Secondly the MAC10 is a 2 handed weapon (just look at other players holding it), though I know in 1st person it shows that you are only holding it with 1 hand. Also MAC10 gives you experience unless you shoot whole magazines into a clot. Just use semi-auto and shoot only 1 bullet into the mobs and let them burn. Also for leveling flamethrower is a lot better choice

I played for two hours or so last night. I used the Mac-10 almost exclusively. I was at 2.7M damage at the start of the night, and 2.7M damage at the end. I can understand that the Flamethrower would logically be the better option, however after two hours of literally doing nothing but firing one shot and letting zeds burn (on everything except for Husks, Fleshpounds, and Scrakes), I should have at least gone up to 2.8M. I played several rounds on Hard and typically had well over 300 kills doing nothing but semi-auto Mac-10. Perhaps I was getting experience. But when it's that slow.. Can we really even call it that?

As for it being a two-handed weapon, all weapons are preferrably two handed. There is no firearm that I can possibly think of that benefits from being held with one hand. The 9mm, again, is a perfect example. Much the same should be set up with the Mac-10. In a zombie apocalypse, if you had two Mac-10's, you'd probably go ahead and use both. The fact the third-person model shows the player holding it with both hands is actually rather irrelevent given that the first person model is then rendered incorrectly. In my experience, the Mac-10 is actually a much poorer damage spike than the flamethrower. The Mac-10 is just a cheaper option that is much better for long range, and can switch to modest crowd control if need be. But for clearing a hallway, or even killing a scrake (which the Mac-10 struggles greatly with) suddenly becomes a cakewalk by pulling out the flamer. The flamethrower can even deal with Fleshpounds relatively well so long as you keep it on target and catch it at maximum range. One full canister will kill a scrake and then some. And kill or cripple a Fleshpound. Dual Mac-10's would change the balance by weakening it's ranged capacity, and offering a real alternative loadout for the Firebug, giving you an actual "damage spike" weapon with crowd control comparable to the Flamethrower at the cost of less ammunition and slightly weaker point-blank range. Plus it would weigh 8 blocks, which is heavy no matter how you slice it. Seems pretty balance related to me. Though, it's too late for here obviously.

 

[Evilsod]

This has never occurred for me I've never once had collision issues and I rarely aim at specific ZEDs considering the spread might not go everwhere. like shooting a HUSK or behind the husk.;O My rocket goes wherever i want it O_O unless im quick scoping xD the scope is perfect in my opinion, maybe a stalker will get in the way and get you killed but whatever.
I still think the LAW is better in terms of damage and use, the only thing the m32 and M79 have over it is ammo.


SO yeah uh LAW RULES >:O

Well i dunno what you're doing but the LAW is very temperamental. 1 moment its going where you aim it, next its slightly off, next its way off. And none of it quickscoping, sitting there aiming at something carefully and watching the rocket sail over its head is lame.

The LAW is better in terms of damage/blast radius per shot... blast radius is undeniable but damage per second is the grenade launchers. And really, 15 shots at large radius but a fairly average maximum (too low to really help on FPs) vs 36+24 grenades and 8 pipebombs all of which do double damage vs FPs... the GL weapon set win hands down. LAW may be more usable than before but its still below average. Its just a bit of fun.