Anti-tank rifle vs infantry

[Hypno Toad]

Teufel its the hidden beauty of this forum that people actualy get lost in detail like the eloquent gentleman above.

Gee, I thought the thread title was called Anti Tank Rifle vs Infantry.. and look, the section is called General Discussion. To my knowledge we were still discussing "Anti Tank Rifle vs Infantry."

Nice sniping, though.

 

[BlackLabel]

eh, i meant it to be intresting reading you guys conversation about dismemberment of bodypartys due to a PTRD hit.

 

[<animal>INSTINCT]

I doubt very much that the engine in the game will be capable of realistically tracking bullet paths and accurately modeling tissue damage of human targets.

The engine will be tracking bullet paths as they pass thru bodies because the avatars in HoS will have a fully modelled skeleton and AFAIK vital organs too.

That way, a bullet that strikes the femur bone will do a LOT more damage than a bullet that only damages the flesh on the thigh. Or a bullet that hits the heart will result in an insta-kill, while an abdomen wound may cause the target to bleed out over several seconds.

It's all tied into the wounding, bleeding-out, and bandaging system that TWI has included

 

[Hypno Toad]

Protip: Don't post in a thread about _____ if you don't have anything to say about _____ it really saves everybody time. I know you just want to show everybody that you're above arguments or debates, but you could just include that in your signature or something.

The engine will be tracking bullet paths as they pass thru bodies because the avatars in HoS will have a fully modelled skeleton and AFAIK vital organs too.

That way, a bullet that strikes the femur bone will do a LOT more damage than a bullet that only damages the flesh on the thigh. Or a bullet that hits the heart will result in an insta-kill, while an abdomen wound may cause the target to bleed out over several seconds.

It's all tied into the wounding, bleeding-out, and bandaging system that TWI has included

Does it say that in the fact thread?

Either way if thats the case I think a 14.5mm would basically be a guaranteed kill. I was under the impression that it was the basic __ limb has __ damage multiplier sort of deal.\

Oh these teribble humans...

 

[BlackLabel]

Oh these teribble humans...

 

[<animal>INSTINCT]

Does it say that in the fact thread?

YouTube - RED ORCHESTRA heros of stalingrad: gamescom 2010
At roughly 7:40, he mentions "getting shot in the heart" will kill you instantly, which sounds like confirmation of a modelled heart, at the very least. I would guess that with TWI being such a 'little details'-focused team, if they took the time to model the heart, they would probably model at least a few other vital parts of the human anatomy (ie lungs, liver, spinal cord)

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Realistically speaking getting shot in the heart takes a minimum of ~10 seconds to actually die.



On the topic of 14.5mm weapon fired on Infantry, it could take off a leg or arm at the THINNER points, but it is completely impossible for the weapon to annihilate the torso, and rare to break off limbs at say the center of the thigh. I've seen .50 BMG wounds in pictures from a friend over-seas. Half the photos shown around the internet are actually from GRENADES, and half the videos are .22 rifles being fired on chipmunks.

Same with .50 BMG. Unless you're loading an expanding round like the Hornady A-MAX, full-metal jacket ammunition really doesn't create wounds like what Hollywood wants you to think.

.50 BMG M33 Ball performs EXACTLY like 7.62x51 M80 in tissue. The only difference is that the larger caliber and longer projectile mean *slightly* larger wounds, unless you're really fat (like say a moose) where the projectile is given more time to yaw fully.

Kinetic Energy lies. 12500 foot pounds of force are NOT delivered all at once to the target, or else there would be no such thing as penetrating through. Look up momentum. If something is coming out the back with 11000 foot pounds of force, then not all the energy was delivered.

Once I also spoke with an old Korean war vet, who was an M2 Quad Gunner. That's 4 M2HB Machine Guns. He actually told me, that most shots to the limbs would "require amputation" and that torso hits to the lower torso (intestinal track) actually sometimes failed to incapacitate soldiers participating in suicidal attack waves; he said they'd go down, but sometimes get back up again.

Nowadays a common cartridge in the M107 Sniper System is the Mk211 Mod 0 round, which has explosive capabilities. Shot at close range, ballistic gel tests will show you it does NOT explode within the width of a human torso and that the wound-channel is nearly the same as .50 FMJ. However at long ranges (low velocities) it HAS been known to sometimes blow up within the width, and this obviously would create a massive wound, due to the explosive nature and not the projectile.

Enjoy this attached picture of a Mk211 through ballistic gel, and see for yourself the size of an ACTUAL .50 caliber wound, and tell me if that's going to blow you into tiny little pieces, or even in half. My friend, it is just not going to happen with FMJ rounds. This photo was part of a .pdf in which the US Army was arguing that, due to the LACK of explosive effect on the wound channel, the Mk211 should be legal despite breaking the hague conventions.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Anti tank rifles will be accurate up to two to three miles if they have the aperture to let the user see that far. The 14.5mm round is a round meant for engaging aircraft, it is capable of traveling very long distances; and the PTRS/PTRD has a very long, rifled barrel which would pretty much ensure great accuracy,

Erm...no it doesn't, far from it infact.

Truth is that WW2 AT rifles generally aren't very accurate at long range, esp. not the semi automatic ones. The barrel harmonics on these beasts are extremely poor, and therefore they have a rather high spread at long range. The accurate range of these things extends to about 300 meters, no more, as also explained by the chaps who used them.

You gotta remember that we're not talking about a 21st century Barret heavy anti material rifle here, we're talking about mid 20th century AT rifles, many of which were often rather crudely made - they werent meant for sniping after all.

Unless they make the rounds out of crude wrough-iron then the thing is pretty much guaranteed to be very, very accurate.

Again, no. Flimsly barrel for the power of the gun, and violent vibrations with no effective recoil cushion system makes these guns rather inaccurate past 300 meters.

 

[DiedTrying]

Realistically speaking getting shot in the heart takes a minimum of ~10 seconds to actually die.

If you hit the heart during a certain beat (can't remember which) it will actually over pressurize your pulmonary system, rupturing almost all your veins including the ones if your brain which will kill you instantly. Outside of some firing neurons, you'd be completely dead before you knew what hit you.

Learned this from hunting, it's fairly rare though as the exact moment you must hit is very short.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

If you hit the heart during a certain beat (can't remember which) it will actually over pressurize your pulmonary system, rupturing almost all your veins including the ones if your brain which will kill you instantly. Outside of some firing neurons, you'd be completely dead before you knew what hit you.

Learned this from hunting, it's fairly rare though as the exact moment you must hit is very short.

Fair enough, but I can recall reading about the FN Five-Seven and came across a police account in which an Officer fired a single round through the torso of an alleged perp. In the autopsy it was found that the 5.7mm round fragmented, and split the heart in two, causing tremendous damage.

Despite all this, and the fact that the man was "dead right there," it took 7 seconds for his life to be alleviated from him.

The minimum time for a man to bleed to death, mathematically, from a single point of injury (as opposed to multiple, or massive destruction of the body) is ~4.6 seconds, but that is a nearly impossible scenario, and it will always take longer.

 

[Placebo Cyanide]

they werent meant for sniping after all.

designed for it or not, they were exceptional in a sniper role when fitted with a scope as the Korean war proved.

Again, no. Flimsly barrel for the power of the gun, and violent vibrations with no effective recoil cushion system makes these guns rather inaccurate past 300 meters.

Effective Range: (ordnance) Distance at which a weapon may be expected to fire accurately to inflict damage or casualties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD

PTRD Effective Range: 3000m. You missed a zero

 

[SheepDip]

I'm calling bull**** on wikipedia there.

 

[Das Bose]

While I totally agree that Wikipedia is often way off, I wouldn't want to be within 1000 meters of anyone firing ammo like that at me

 

[Teufel Hund]

If you hit the heart during a certain beat (can't remember which) it will actually over pressurize your pulmonary system, rupturing almost all your veins including the ones if your brain which will kill you instantly. Outside of some firing neurons, you'd be completely dead before you knew what hit you.

Learned this from hunting, it's fairly rare though as the exact moment you must hit is very short.

I've never heard of this before, do you have any documentation on it? Physiologically, it just doesn't make sense to me. The pulmonary vasculature does certainly operate on a much lower pressure than the rest of the body, and is often damaged in overpressure situations. This is commonly seen in explosions and diving accidents. But the vasculature of the rest of the body is pretty resilient, unless the person has arteriosclerosis.

 

[Teufel Hund]

Fair enough, but I can recall reading about the FN Five-Seven and came across a police account in which an Officer fired a single round through the torso of an alleged perp. In the autopsy it was found that the 5.7mm round fragmented, and split the heart in two, causing tremendous damage.

Despite all this, and the fact that the man was "dead right there," it took 7 seconds for his life to be alleviated from him.

The minimum time for a man to bleed to death, mathematically, from a single point of injury (as opposed to multiple, or massive destruction of the body) is ~4.6 seconds, but that is a nearly impossible scenario, and it will always take longer.

I've personally seen a case where a man took 7 9mm rounds to the torso, and he was found dead in the bushes approximately 200 feet from the location where he was shot. But then I've also seen people unconscious from a .25 in their thigh... Blood loss and tissue damage aren't the only factors to consider.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

I've personally seen a case where a man took 7 9mm rounds to the torso, and he was found dead in the bushes approximately 200 feet from the location where he was shot. But then I've also seen people unconscious from a .25 in their thigh... Blood loss and tissue damage aren't the only factors to consider.

Very true. In my opinion shot placement is what counts. It matters even with 14.5mm and .50 BMG.

Ultimately I think I'll enjoy this game having a fresh take on weapon damage, as the bleed out system will be more realistic then say, Battlefield where 5 shots are needed to instantly kill the target or otherwise they magically heal (and even then a defib can bring them back???), or Call of Duty Hardcore mode where a single 9mm to the toe and it's game over man.

 

[Placebo Cyanide]

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/antitank.pdf

(Third Page, under After the War)

Another source. While it differs from wikipedia it is still far greater than the 300m mentioned earlier. The main point I was making was to disprove that the PTRD was an inaccurate weapon.

 

[DiedTrying]

I've never heard of this before, do you have any documentation on it? Physiologically, it just doesn't make sense to me. The pulmonary vasculature does certainly operate on a much lower pressure than the rest of the body, and is often damaged in overpressure situations. This is commonly seen in explosions and diving accidents. But the vasculature of the rest of the body is pretty resilient, unless the person has arteriosclerosis.

Read it in outdoor life a few years ago. Was explaining why some animals shot in the heart drop limp without a fuss, and others shot in the heart run half a mile.

Finding journal articles about it would probably be difficult.

 

[Crni-Wuk]

Maybe what you are talking about is called the Hydrostatic shock which is seen by many as a myth. Sadly I have neither enough information nor do I posses the needed knowledge about either ballistics, wounds or medicine to say if that is right or wrong.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Hydrostatic shock is better known as temporary cavitation in terminal ballistics, and in SOME scenarios it can be a factor in killing a target, but in most scenarios it's not.

It is merely the displacement of tissue, not the destruction: tissue that moves, and then falls back into place, like water shaken in a glass.
Some organs can be damaged by this movement, which is when "hydrostatic shock" comes into play, but other tissue is not affected by it.

It is a contributing factor to why a .50 to the shin may tear it off (assuming the bullet hits the bone and not clips through just flesh), but a .50 to the stomach will NOT blow you in half.

Here is an illustration of some wound channels attached. The dark area represents tissue destroyed, while the lines surrounding the channel represent temporary cavitation. As it says on the image, top is 5.56mm, center 7.62mm, bottom .50BMG.