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Anti-tank rifle vs infantry

the ptrs is the same size rond as the 50 cal..it would make a big hole......mabey rip in half...does the 50 shoot solid steal however???

50-FMJ (lead core) = in half
14.7 or whatever - solid steal, or AT rounds = small hole, most lilyly dead, but would stop him!

Actually, the 14.5x114mm is 1.8mm larger in diameter, has a projectile weight of 990gr compared to the 706.7 gr of the M2 AP and has a muzzle velocity of above 1000m/s compared to the ~850m/s of the M2 AP. That puts it's potential energy output at around 32,000J, that's nearly twice the amount the M2 AP round has (16,700J).

PS: Neither the PTRD nor any .50BMG rifle fires "solid steel".
 
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grain count DOES NOT mean highter velocity! grain = weight of the bullet, the higehr the weight, the lower the velosity....unless its grains of powder!

the ptrs is the same size rond as the 50 cal..it would make a big hole......mabey rip in half...does the 50 shoot solid steal however???

50-FMJ (lead core) = in half
14.7 or whatever - solid steal, or AT rounds = small hole, most lilyly dead, but would stop him!

I thought he meant more grains of powder, generally causing a higher velocity (depending on which powder of course).
 
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Then there's also the Lahti L-39 the Finns used, and the Solothurn S-18/1000 in use by the Finns and Germans.

Very soon after the beginning of the Continuation War Finns found the L-39 to be totally ineffective against medium and heavy Soviet tanks. It was then took off from AT-role and used as antimaterial rifle, heavy sniper rifle and some were also coverted to AA purpouses. So it actually wasn
 
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I must have missed your mention of the conversion. That will teach me to skim through threads... :eek:

I'm sure I read somewhere that the SS-18 was still in use by the gebirgsjagers and fallschirmjagers until the end of the war. I'll see if I can find the reference.

I know the heavier sPzB 41 was still in use, but is it a heavy AT rifle (as the Germans designated it), or a light AT gun...
Or did I miss that mention already as well?
The SPzB. 41 wasn't really much of an AT-rifle, it actually was a small squeeze-bore AT-gun. It had all the characteristics of an AT-gun, except that it didn't have a mechanism to control the elevation and azimuth, so it was directly "guided" by one man.

It started out with a 28mm bore which then got reduced to 20mm, squeezing the driving bands of the projectile in order to increase it's muzzle velocity and decrease it's wind resistance. This gave it a muzzle velocity of over 1400m/s!!! :eek: With APCR rounds this gave the weapon a penetration capability of nearly around 80mm @ 100m.

Here's a picture of the projectile before firing.

28-20mm_pzb41_projectile-2_527.jpg


As you can see, the two "discs" or driving bands would be compressed and would form a solid shot inside the barrel.
 
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The SPzB. 41 wasn't really much of an AT-rifle, it actually was a small squeeze-bore AT-gun. It had all the characteristics of an AT-gun, except that it didn't have a mechanism to control the elevation and azimuth, so it was directly "guided" by one man.

It started out with a 28mm bore which then got reduced to 20mm, squeezing the driving bands of the projectile in order to increase it's muzzle velocity and decrease it's wind resistance. This gave it a muzzle velocity of over 1400m/s!!! :eek: With APCR rounds this gave the weapon a penetration capability of nearly around 80mm @ 100m.

Here's a picture of the projectile before firing.

28-20mm_pzb41_projectile-2_527.jpg


As you can see, the two "discs" or driving bands would be compressed and would form a solid shot inside the barrel.

It was also used on some of the variants of the SdKfz 221, 250, and 251. Of course the barrels did tend to wear out quicker than normal because of the design, and the tungsten needed for the ammo was in short supply. But it was an excellent light anti-tank weapon suited for gebirgsjagers and fallschirmjagers.
 
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Probably a bit late to the party but I feel as a techie history nerd, I feel compelled to chime in.

Let me preface this by saying, being shot by a PTRS, or a panzerbusche would definately ruin your day. It would be something you would really, really, really want to avoid, simply because having holes poked in your body is general bad news.

Being cut in half, or turning into a grisly hamburger pulp on the pavement? Unlikely. Mostly it involves variables that come into play and isn't solely about facts such as muzzle velocity, weight or even bullet shape.

Speed is a huge factor. Anyone familiar with the lethality of bullets should be familiar with the terms "Over penetration" and "cavitation." I saw someone posted videos of ballistics gel tests, so you can see a prime example of cavitation there. As you all know, bullets start out fast and gradually drop off due to wind resistance. Speed also determines how fast the bullet will pass into and through a body. Simply put speed can change how a bullet fragments within the body. It takes time for the bullet to fragment, quite a lot of time in fact when you break it down into the mili and nanosecond scale we're talking about here. So, a bullet traveling at 3,655 FP/S, will pass through a human in an amount of time so small, its not worth calculating. Even if the person is 1 foot thick, which is really quite a fat person, we're still talking about an infinitesimal amount of time. Even if the round DID fragment, at near muzzle velocity it will be in, and out of the body before it has time to come completely apart. Now at longer ranges where its lost some of its speed, you'll begin to see more and more damage at the impact site, until you drop below a specific threshold, and you start to slide back down the bell curve. This is part one of Over Penetration.

Part two, is where we talk about cavitation. Cavitation is literally the "wake" a bullet makes when passing through a material. Think of a boat on a lake and you'll see it making a cavitation analog. The size of the bullet, the shape of the bullet, and the speed of the bullet all affect cavitation. You can actually see the cavitation issue come up quite often in modern military and law enforcement discussions when they debate between 9mm vs. .45, and their strengths and weaknesses (also a good source to look into info about part 1 of over penetration). A 9mm flies very, very fast compared to a .45. Specifically 1,200-1,400 FP/S for a 9mm, vs. 900-1,200 FP/S for a .45 acp. Simply put, a 9mm moves too fast through the body to develop a significant cavitation, where as a .45 takes its sweet time and cruises through taking the scenic tour and setting up a nice big cavitation, and even sympathetic reflective cavitation if you hit all the squishy bits. And boys and girls its the nice, big cavitation that renders your giblets into, well... giblets.

On top of all of THAT, bullet shape has a HUGE factor in cavitation. Simply put the more streamlined the bullet, the less cavitation there is. If you've never looked at a .45 slug, its face is usually a ball (talking about FMJ here, not fancy types like hollow point or frangible rounds), where as rifle and 9mm rounds tend to be a little more streamlined, which is made specifically to facilitate movement through the air, with a minimum of drag. That, in a very simple nutshell means its meant to not affect the air in the same way as a rounder bullet in its passing. Water or liquids behave much as air does, and this translates to lower cavitation generation in liquids. Simply put the type of round fired by the PTRS, and Panzerbusche 39, are designed not for human flesh, but to penetrate steel, and hard objects. They are streamlined, move very fast, and designed NOT to fragment. After all, the steel penetrator wouldn't make it very far if the Jacket blew apart on contact. They are designed to penetrate the steel a little, ablate the jacket and let the penetrator keep going. Add on top of that the fact that the human body while being 70% water, we are not giant fleshy water balloons. We have several areas that have little to no water, and a few places that are just empty. No liquids in them to cause cavitation. As a matter of fact if your chest area was filled with liquid and/or meat, you wouldn't be alive long because you couldn't breathe.

So to wrap this up (I have more on ammunition types, locations hit, and why ballistics gel isn't 100% accurate, if I don't get flamed to death and anyone is interested), yes, being shot by a Anti Tank rifle would definitely be lethal in 90% of cases. Yes it would kill you rather dead. In a one in a million shot, it might take off a limb. Cut you in half? No. Render you into a hollow man? Probably not. You'd have a neat little hole in the front, a slightly larger hole in the back, and a very bad day.
 
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Who cares if its obsolete or if there are more efficient ways to kill specific targets? Russians used these rifles in WW2 and now we will use them in HoS.

I intend to bring mine indoors and use cover like a bastard so I can kill people through several walls without fear of reprisal. Sort of like the Farsight in Perfect Dark. Seriously if you had a couple teammates covering you and you knew where the enemies were or were going to be inside a building you could get incredibly cheap. I always had better luck methodically creeping up on tanks with satchel charges than trying to pick at them with the rifles anyways.
 
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Who cares if its obsolete or if there are more efficient ways to kill specific targets? Russians used these rifles in WW2 and now we will use them in HoS.

I intend to bring mine indoors and use cover like a bastard so I can kill people through several walls without fear of reprisal. Sort of like the Farsight in Perfect Dark. Seriously if you had a couple teammates covering you and you knew where the enemies were or were going to be inside a building you could get incredibly cheap. I always had better luck methodically creeping up on tanks with satchel charges than trying to pick at them with the rifles anyways.
That should be an achievement, kill an enemy through 3 brick walls
 
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So to wrap this up (I have more on ammunition types, locations hit, and why ballistics gel isn't 100% accurate, if I don't get flamed to death and anyone is interested), yes, being shot by a Anti Tank rifle would definitely be lethal in 90% of cases. Yes it would kill you rather dead. In a one in a million shot, it might take off a limb. Cut you in half? No. Render you into a hollow man? Probably not. You'd have a neat little hole in the front, a slightly larger hole in the back, and a very bad day.
Though flesh may not be a rigid surface the sheer force of impact from sucha high powered round would cause grievous damage on the entrance and even worse damage on the exit.

I think about 100% of torso hits would be lethal, whereas limb shots would leave a chance for survival so long as medical treatment was quick.

But If a large 32,000j projectile hits a joint or a bone in your body its going to take the limb off or leave it dangling.. if it hit you in the leg your leg would come out from under your weight. Not sure if I just misread your post, or if that was a typo but I think a projectile of that size and power would be guaranteed to remove a limb, or at the very least cause bad enough damage that the limb would need to be amputated later on. Especially if it hit a fairly ridgid surface like bone.


Just to clarify, the bullet itself if over half an inch wide... your arm at it's thickest point is about 2.5 inches wide. The entire round itself is 6 inches long, roughly half the length of your forearm. These are just the size dimensions, imagine the same thing hitting you at one kilometer per second. This is a round that is guaranteed to remove a limb, to say otherwise is absurd.
 
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Though flesh may not be a rigid surface the sheer force of impact from sucha high powered round would cause grievous damage on the entrance and even worse damage on the exit.

I think about 100% of torso hits would be lethal, whereas limb shots would leave a chance for survival so long as medical treatment was quick.

But If a large 32,000j projectile hits a joint or a bone in your body its going to take the limb off or leave it dangling.. if it hit you in the leg your leg would come out from under your weight. Not sure if I just misread your post, or if that was a typo but I think a projectile of that size and power would be guaranteed to remove a limb, or at the very least cause bad enough damage that the limb would need to be amputated later on. Especially if it hit a fairly ridgid surface like bone.


Just to clarify, the bullet itself if over half an inch wide... your arm at it's thickest point is about 2.5 inches wide. The entire round itself is 6 inches long, roughly half the length of your forearm. These are just the size dimensions, imagine the same thing hitting you at one kilometer per second. This is a round that is guaranteed to remove a limb, to say otherwise is absurd.

Oh it would almost certainly ruin the arm. Even a 7.62x39 shot to the arm can tear and cause nerve damage bad enough to render the arm useless. But take it entirely off the body A-la hollywood action movies, I'd say you're looking at a 1 in 10 chance, if not 1 in 20. Every shot, every time? No way.

My bicep is 5" wide at its widest, unflexed. My brothers is 4.5" wide. Only someone severely atrophied would have a TOTAL width of 2.5". The BONE in the upper arm would be in the neighborhood of 2-2.5" wide in an average male, sure. But you've got another approximately 2" of muscle, connetive tissues (Ligaments, what butchers call silverskin and so on) veins, tendons and so on. Tendons alone are notoriously hard to sever, so much so in fact that we used animal tendons for ropes, bowstrings and lashings for thousands of years. To tear those lose you either have to cut them, pull them until they break, or sever their anchor points. So that means you either have to have the bullet pass through them, break apart and slice them, deliver enough energy to move them enough to break them free from the anchor points, or break the bones where they are anchored. Any number of those scenarios can certainly happen in a hit, but the odds are fairly low. The limb may be left dangling by stringy bits, but its still technically attached :D

As someone who is clearly capable of understanding joules you should also know that while it has a potential energy of X joules, and to use your example 32,000j, you should also know that if the impact site absorbed the entire 32,000j, that the bullet would stop dead in its tracks and fall to the ground, which we all know it wont do. Just because the projectile CAN produce an impact of 32,000j doesnt mean all that energy will be transferred into the affected limb. I'd say less than 5% of that energy would be transferred into a limb. Its going to hit the limb start a hydrostatic shock in the flesh, punch through whatever gets in its way and keep going for a fair distance if it doesn't hit the ground or something else. But sadly unless someone wants to volunteer a force plate, and their arm, we have no way of realistically calculating how much energy would be lost passing through a limb.

You are also talking about a projectile that was NOT designed for flesh. Its not been designed to dump energy into squishy flesh bags. Its designed to penetrate armor. Hollow points are designed to dump a lot of energy fast, and sub sequentially cause big, big damage. A standard boat tail, jacketed round is meant to hit something, and keep going, to burrow as far as it can. Its streamlined, and that in fact kills its energy transfer into a target, unless that target is sufficiently dense and can stop the bullet, flesh can't, especially not with a round like we're talking.

So let me revise my statement. Its not a one in a million shot. its a one in ten to twenty. And it definitely would ruin the limb. It would also cause ancillary threat in the form of bleeding. But a guaranteed sever? I still think it wouldn't.
 
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You're right about arm size, estimated that incorrectly. regardless,

It's unlikely that it would fly off like some tarintino to film, but the arm will not be "useless," as if it's just been gimped, it will need to be removed if the bone is hit. The bone is not going to be intact at all. Unfortunately there is no truly realsitic gore in RO, so either the limb comes off or it doesn't, and the later of which is far, far more realistic for such a huge and grossly overpowered round.

A 7.62 mm round is a fraction of the size and 1/16 of the kinetic energy, we are talking about a huge impact difference here. "A bullet is a bullet" is incredibly confounded logic, while a small hole in your chest will certainly be enough to kill you, a 14.5 mm round will not only kill you but it will leave a tin can sized hole in your body. While a 14.5mm round will certainly be far from optimum for use against infantry since much of it's energy will not be transferred to a soft surface, it will still transfer a much more absorbinant ammount. If it hits a very solid structure like a bone if will send fragments every which way.

What youre missing is it does not matter in the slightest whether the round is designed for flesh or not. A 40mm shaped charge is not designed for direct flesh impact, but if it does have a direct impact it will turn your chest into confetti. Likewise a 14.5 mm round is not designed for optimum flesh performance, but it impacts with 16 times the amount of power that a 7.62 impacts with.

Flesh does not simply receive X amount of energy as if it's some sort of maximum capacity. The more powerful a round, the more of that energy will be transferred.. although there is a percentage falloff as rounds increase in power. But a 14.5mm is 16 times more powerful, and in practice it will be at least 4x more powerful than a 7.62 on intital impact and travel-through, especially if it hits a rigid surface like bone. Whatever limb it hits will come off; whether it flies off, falls off, or dangles off. And there will be a very large mess made on initial impact

But a guaranteed sever? I still think it wouldn't.

Just to clarify.. a clean sever? No, but an effective sever? yes. All the bone and muscle support of the arm will give out and the arm will become detached, it would be like having your arm crushed by a large metal beam. You cannot illustrate that sort of thing without a new set of animations, so logically the best solution is to simply have the limb come off when it's shot.
 
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I think we're losing focus here, and getting caught up in the details. I doubt very much that the engine in the game will be capable of realistically tracking bullet paths and accurately modeling tissue damage of human targets. Nor do I think that it would really make any difference if it did. The simple fact is that the majority of time a large caliber high velocity projectile will render a human target combat ineffective. Does it really matter in the scope of the game if he is dead, or crippled and in hypovolemic shock? (which given the state of WW2 combat medicine means he will most likely be dead soon anyway)
 
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Basically yes. But to say "no, he wouldn't lose a limb" is absolutely absurd. Though the limb may not "fly off" per say, it's still the most realistic interpretation one can give without some completely unnecessary internal ballistics engine, or the unreasonable alternative of making an arm or leg impact look like any other bullet impact which is basically out of the question.
 
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