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Anti-tank rifle vs infantry

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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designed for it or not, they were exceptional in a sniper role when fitted with a scope as the Korean war proved.
No it wasn't, and no it didn't.

If you read what actual snipers who at some point used these weapons have to say, they all agree that they weren't very accurate past 300 meters.

Effective Range: (ordnance) Distance at which a weapon may be expected to fire accurately to inflict damage or casualties.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTRD[/URL]

PTRD Effective Range: 3000m. You missed a zero :D
You might want to overlook what wikipedia has to say on this matter ;)

Effective range of these weapons is 300 meters max. The guy who wrote this particular piece of information on Wiki must have been playing Call of Duy abit too much ;)
 

Crni-Wuk

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 16, 2010
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Hydrostatic shock is better known as temporary cavitation in terminal ballistics, and in SOME scenarios it can be a factor in killing a target, but in most scenarios it's not.

It is merely the displacement of tissue, not the destruction: tissue that moves, and then falls back into place, like water shaken in a glass.
Some organs can be damaged by this movement, which is when "hydrostatic shock" comes into play, but other tissue is not affected by it.

It is a contributing factor to why a .50 to the shin may tear it off (assuming the bullet hits the bone and not clips through just flesh), but a .50 to the stomach will NOT blow you in half.

Here is an illustration of some wound channels attached. The dark area represents tissue destroyed, while the lines surrounding the channel represent temporary cavitation. As it says on the image, top is 5.56mm, center 7.62mm, bottom .50BMG.
I am just curious but would every bullet once it penetrates a soft target like a human for example start to tumble ? Including such large calibers like the 14,5mm anti tank rifle even ?
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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[URL]http://www.smallarmsreview.com/pdf/antitank.pdf[/URL]

(Third Page, under After the War)

Another source. While it differs from wikipedia it is still far greater than the 300m mentioned earlier. The main point I was making was to disprove that the PTRD was an inaccurate weapon.
You might want to take a close look at the heavily modified PTRD (experimental is what I'd call it) on that page, esp. the barrel which is MUCH thicker than normal (heavy BMG barrel according to aberdeen document), and shorter too, plus it is chambered in .50 BMG.

So the experimental PTRD that Weakley used in the sniping role has got a shorter and thicker barrel, and fires a less powerful cartridge (12.7x99mm vs 14.5x114mm), all of which translates into smaller barrel vibrations and better heat dissipation = better accuracy.

The original PTRD featured a longer flimsier barrel and fired a significantly more powerful round (14.5x114mm), hence it suffered from truly horrible barrel harmonics, featuring an accurate range of approx. 300 meters. The PTRS was even worse because of its clunky self-loading system.
 
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Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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I am just curious but would every bullet once it penetrates a soft target like a human for example start to tumble ? Including such large calibers like the 14,5mm anti tank rifle even ?
No, not every bullet does. Tumbling is due to bullet design; usually sharp-pointed or boat-tail bullets will tumble.

I would expect 14.5mm to perform like .50 BMG and 7.62x51mm; it would BEGIN to tumble/yaw within the width of a human, but it would not reach 90 degrees. This would result in a normal-size entry wound with a larger exit wound, but what dimensions I could not tell you.

What I can tell you is, so long as it's thickly-jacketted and does not feature explosive compound, the size of the exit wound will not be ridiculously immense.
That said anyone not merely clipped by 14.5mm is not gonna have a good day. It's bigger and longer :)p) than 7.62mm and .50 BMG, so the entrance wound and exit wound could be even larger than those (entrance wound definitely, exit wound maybe, depends on how much yawing occurs.) Like .50 BMG, I would expect it could take off limbs at the thinner points, but not blow a man in half.

For gameplay I'd say it should be a garaunteed 1-hit weapon, but realism sake should not "pop" targets apart like L4D2's M60.
 
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Tenko

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 12, 2011
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*edit2* its the same reason you dont want to use a .50bmg against someone,You Can.but its not as accurate as your lower caliber rifle, the basis is,rifle1 has more accuracy and kills with one shot,is smaller lighter quieter, Rifle2 less accuracy,more power,still one kill shot,big muzzle flash,big and heavy,not very moble. which would be the logical choice?

not to meantion,both AT guns had their issues with jamming.

*edit* just a added note,the bigger the round,the more its going to drop,and slow.
okay dokey ill break this down,(go to the bottem of the page for logic)
-Can you use it against people? Yes,
--Should you use it against people? No,Why?
chances are someone around you is going to have a rifle,and with a FPS around the same as your AT gun,it makes sense to use the common More accurate rifle which you can find ammo for anywhere.
---What would happen if you shot someone with it?
since its meant for putting holes and dents into German armour,their going to get knocked back with a small entrance wound, but with a enormous exit wound,
14.5(Russian AT GUN)=
59.6 g (920 gr)BZT API-T1,000 m/s (3,300 ft/s)29,800 J (22,000 ft
 
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Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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since the 7.62x54r put holes the size of your fist into people,imagine what the 14.5 would do.
Doesn't exactly work like that. You're just showing kinetic energy, and not discussing terminal ballistics.

In terminal ballistics, the amount of tissue damage done is a factor of caliber, projectile length, and the distance at which it yaws, OR in some cases, how much fragmentation occurs, and the distance at which it fragments.

In the case of the bullets at hand:
7.62x54mmR = 0.31 cal, 3.33cm long (Type L 148gr Ball)
.50 BMG = 0.51 cal, 5.87cm long (M2 Ball, length also common to many .50 bullets)
14.5mm = 0.586 cal, 5.1cm long (BS/API)

14.5mm projectiles are usually shorter, with the longer cartridge packing more powder, accelerating the projectile to higher velocities.

The difference between the diameter is fairly irrevelant, and .50 BMG/7.62x54mmR perform pretty much the same as 7.62x51mm M80 Ball (what I'm talking about is they yaw at the same distance) so, with 14.5mm actually being SHORTER than .50 BMG, and assuming that it performs not unlike M80 since it has no unique attributes (such as an air-pocket in the tip, like 5.45mm) it would likely create smaller exit wounds than .50 BMG, or at least very comparable.

While I cannot tell you the size of an exit wound after 20cm penetration for .50 BMG Ball, I can tell you that the AMAX cartridge (which are much longer than .50 BMG ball and also sometimes expand) creates ~7-8 inch wide exit wounds. Thus one can be certain that 14.5mm will produce smaller exit wounds than that.

Edit: Note that some 14.5mm projectiles are longer than 5.1cm, and even longer than 6cm. I do not know all the exact details, but the ORIGINAL 14.5mm BS API 65.5g projectile was 5.1cm long. Thus one can say that there may be alot of performance difference with 14.5mm cartridges, but of course, since they'll all reliably stop a man in a single hit, that difference seems irrelevant.

I'll attach this image again to help illustrate my point.
14.5mm will probably look just like .50 BMG, with potentially more temporary cavitation.
 

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Tiger2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2008
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Basically, unus offa unus nex is making sensible points. Otherwise standard rifles would become obsolete. 3km range is obviously untrue- modern high quality .50 cal rifles are quoted to have 1km range and even this is exaggerated and depends on the shooter's exceptional skill.
 

LemoN

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 26, 2006
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Prussotroll's Bridge
Leaving accuracy and terminal ballistics aside, the main problem is that, due to the PTRD's and PTRS' crude sights, the distance at which the larger and more powerful round would give you an advantage over your standard M91/30 is well beyond the distance you can reliably hit a person.

In almost all cases you'd be better off with a 91/30.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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I would much agree that the PTRD/S 14.5mm systems would not be accurate, however, I would also expect 14.5mm to have a much straighter flight path, due to the massive projectile weight and very high velocity; it's ballistics coefficient would likely be very high, BUT that does not exactly mean accuracy is very good.

The only time I'd expect it's use for sniping would be under 800m at a heavily emplaced Gun position, such as a Machine Gun team in a concrete building, where the M91/30 would fail to penetrate reliably.
 

LemoN

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Feb 26, 2006
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Prussotroll's Bridge
I would much agree that the PTRD/S 14.5mm systems would not be accurate, however, I would also expect 14.5mm to have a much straighter flight path, due to the massive projectile weight and very high velocity; it's ballistics coefficient would likely be very high, BUT that does not exactly mean accuracy is very good.

The only time I'd expect it's use for sniping would be under 800m at a heavily emplaced Gun position, such as a Machine Gun team in a concrete building, where the M91/30 would fail to penetrate reliably.
Good luck hitting anything smaller than a 10m barn at 800m with these sights. :D

 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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Not sure what a video of you shooting someone in a game with an animated PTRD proves.... IMHO, nothing at all.

The sights on the real thing are crude, and they can't be adjusted.

Furthermore the game RO does not model a realistic spread for the PTRD, which would further reduce accuracy. Also there is the matter of trigger pull, and these beast are known to have a very hard trigger pull, once more reducing accuracy.

Finally, the 14.5mm ammunition fired by the PTRD & PTRS was of rather crude manufacture, not a lot of quality control was done at the plants, which resulted in varying amounts of powder in the cartridges - again leading to inconsistent trajectories. It wasn't by much, but it was enough to make sure that it would fail miserably as a precision weapon past 300 meters.
 

Placebo Cyanide

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 12, 2010
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inexcess.us
Lmao, it was an attempt at humor, sorry you missed it.

EDIT- All of this talk about how good the PTRD/S is or isn't is moot. Some members of the Tripwire staff have fired the weapon at a range during the making of RO2 and IIRC RO1. Seeing as how the Tripwire guys aren't slouches I'm sure they'll do things right.
 
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BATTERIES

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 17, 2011
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The ptrd is the WORST INVENTION of mankind ever. The russians cant build anything more complex than a hammer and sickle duck taped together... or so the members of this forum would have you believe.

:D:D:D:D

Dont believe all western propaganda you morons, if it was so crap explain why they continued making it until almost end of the war. Sick of rivet counters who think they know what it was like, well you werent there so you dont know.
 

Alvin Fuchs

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 4, 2010
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Faustin' IS2s
Dont believe all western propaganda you morons, if it was so crap explain why they continued making it until almost end of the war. Sick of rivet counters who think they know what it was like, well you werent there so you dont know.

Okay...

So I have to be there in order to understand it penetrated a certain amount of steel under regular circumstances?

Alrighty then.
 

Tenko

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 12, 2011
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Doesn't exactly work like that. You're just showing kinetic energy, and not discussing terminal ballistics.
itd be wiser to shoot with the Mosin if you had it on hand while using the PTRS/D. while the gun IS REPORTED to have porr accuracy, me nor most of the people here havent shot one.ive shoot and own 2 mosins. and from waht people say about both, it makes logical sense to pick the mosin over the PTRS/D when it comes to hitting people.
as what a 14.5 would do when it hit you.well,doesnt take a scientist to think what a bullet tht size would do. slow velocity or high its going to do damage.and LOTS of it.
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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People seem to be misunderstanding what I wrote as me having a bash at the Soviets. It in no way was however!

What I said applies to pretty much ALL Anti Tank rifles of the war (safe maybe from some of the much more unwieldly "mini cannons" out there *cough* Solothurn *cough*), be it Russian, British, German, US or Japanese, it doesn't matter. These things weren't meant for shooting at human sized targets at long ranges (see: Sniping), they were meant for taking out light AFVs, and that at normal ranges of 300m and closer.

In short, the German panzerb
 
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