Accuracy needs to be reduced on ALL the weapons ingame

[Gaizokubanou]

Sway during standing is probably slightly lower than it should, and I wouldn't mind seeing extra sway while standing or when you are out of stamina, but I doubt that'll do anything to the meta game accuracy which was the focus of this thread. I rarely see people just walking straight up and making kills while standing. Everyone is crouched or prone when taking shots at 75m+ range, with rare exception of people inside a building standing up to get better angle at close targets.

 

[Pip-boy]

Seriously, fire some goddamn synapses before you start arguing.

Seriously you need your head checked.
The figures I gave you are pretty much best-case scenarios for precision.

The game has no bullet spread for bolt, sniper, and especially semiauto rifles.
This is my point.

THERE IS NO BULLET SPREAD IN THE GAME.

Grab a ruler, put one end of it at the center of your chest, and measure. 4" would still put a bullet right through one of your lungs unless you're some kind of small-torso'd midget. Not to mention that is using the 200 yd spread. 2" at 100 yards wouldn't even move the round off your heart.

Knowing your knowledge of firearms is based on your imagination and playing games, I am unsure if you'd even point it the right way let alone know how to fire.

My point was, and still is:
At 200m, between the two churches in Spartanovka, when I am in the southernmost church and I see a german's head showing up over the half-broken wall in front of the northernmost church, I can put a shot in that head close to 100% of the time.
At the moment of the shot there is NO sway, and considering that I am crouching and leaning my rifle against a window there is zero chance IRL that such awkward position would yield a completely zero-sway hold.
Also taken into consideration the low ammo and rifle quality, I would safely assume a 8" (~20cm) spread should be expected at LEAST with a bolt action rifle.
With a semiauto no less than 8", more likely 10".
Now in an even more realistic scenario, say due to a twitching hand at 100m I aim for one's head. In doing so I am off center, basicly aiming at the very side of it. In the game, as it is now, this will result in a hit. If it would have spread however, it would give me 50% chance of doing so.
Same goes for shooting at longer distance, just that the % of likelyhood would drop. THAT would realism.
THAT is what we had in semi vs bolt sniper rifles in RO1.


Ps:
I have a friend who is just like you. Smart, but an *** who can't hold up in a single discussion. We had an arguement where I said iPhone antenna is an inferior design, and due to that they use higher wattage to compensate for log dB gain. He said, "that's not a problem", I said - that's not the point. It's a bad antenna, and a bad design. He refused that, arguing it was not a problem, but that was not my point either.
He did not understand in his head the words I was saying, he did not understand it was a drawback vs other mobile phone manufacturers, and he isolated himself in his own la-la-land imagination where he was right no matter what. That is a common trait of women, who say "yes" when they mean "no" and vica versa. When the mind refuses to admit the error in fear of admitting moral defeat. A simple and pathetic defense strategy which results in ego-centrism.

So I withdraw all bad words I used against you and apologise to you. What I ment to say is that you are an egocentric person, with the mind of a spoiled little girl that can't read and can't admit being wrong. You hanging up on every word I said, mis-quoting and deliberately derailing the conversation with every post you make prove my point more and more.

 

[Pip-boy]

Sway and the ironsight zoom are the issues. rifles and smgs are as accurate as they should be.

+1

That is a fun thing to have, but totally unreal.
The argument of the devs was that this would simulate "focus" on the target, but they forgot that you can zoom while you physically look somwhere else on the screen, eliminating that whole concept.

 

[dibbler67]

+1

That is a fun thing to have, but totally unreal.
The argument of the devs was that this would simulate "focus" on the target, but they forgot that you can zoom while you physically look somwhere else on the screen, eliminating that whole concept.

Actually I believe its purpose was to make objects appear as large as they would to your physical eyes at that distance. DoF is what simulates focus, but right now it only works on whole "planes" of the environment instead of specific objects. In a way this is realistic at great distance, because everything about 200 yards away looks pretty clear when you focus on something 200 yards away. The zoom thing has been dragged through the streets a thousand times already; the fact is that it allows us to have realistic engagement distances.

The big issue is that in real life, the rifles are very accurate. Most of the error comes from the human using the weapon. Currently, the only thing affecting aim is breathing. Like I've said, I think giving the weapons inertia would simulate human error well enough that we wouldn't need to exaggerate sway, any unrealistically fast and twitchy movements would be punished by the weapon continuing past the desired point of aim. Now proper aim will require a number of micro movements of the mouse, simulating all the twitches you get as you steady a real rifle.

This is just my opinion. The more I think about, the more I feel it would be the perfect solution.

 

[Velico]

So I withdraw all bad words I used against you and apologise to you. What I ment to say is that you are an egocentric person, with the mind of a spoiled little girl that can't read and can't admit being wrong. You hanging up on every word I said, mis-quoting and deliberately derailing the conversation with every post you make prove my point more and more.

He's delusional, just don't even try lol. He is the epitome of a "refined troll", one who thinks he can use supposed superior intellect to win a debate when there is no real debate. Not much seems to get through to him, I personally just started ignoring his ego-maniacal rants and misinformation. I'm glad someone else called him on his bollocks.

 

[j1yeon]

This definitely needs to be reworked, and I agree that the "firefights" are pretty much non-existant. It sure is entertaining when a firefight between riflemen DOES happen, and we both suck enough to miss our first shots. But in general, it's ridiculous how easy it is to pick people off at range with these weapons.

 

[Rrralphster]

Realistic firefight at 15 meters:

typically nielsen - YouTube

Stalingrad: "grenade's throw distance, aproximately 30-40 meters"

 

[Josef Nader]

Sweet Celestia this Pip guy is projecting so hard he could point himself at a wall and show PowerPoint presentations.

I mean, I could try to answer you, but it's pretty clear that you're just going to insist that I'm a delusional moron no matter how well constructed and eloquent my argument is. I don't share the same opinion as you, so I can't possibly be right. I mean, you are clearly beyond qualified to deliver de facto information and hard data on ballistics, the handling of rifles, their spread patterns, the skill of the shooter, the psychological state of soldiers in combat, their physiological responses to the stresses of combat, and their capabilities with their weapons.

Seriously professor, can I read one of your peer reviewed research papers? Clearly someone as accomplished in such a wide variety of fields as yourself has had several papers published regarding his work, and is highly sought after among the armed services, weapon manufacturers, and academia alike. I mean honestly, you expect people to believe everything you say without a single source, reference, or ounce of credibility (and the best part is that people actually buy what you're selling!). You must clearly be an expert beyond question in a massive number of unrelated fields.

How many degrees do you have? What's it like to be a god among mortals? What's it like being right all the time? Can I have a lock of your hair so that I may tell my grandchildren that I was once owned in a debate by the great Pip-Boy?

Seriously, though. You're either a very clever troll or an intellect of such astounding stupidity that you probably hold the earth to be a 6000 year old flat disk underneath a solid firmament and that all of the species on earth could be repopulated from a single mating pair without any sort of genetic disasters occurring. You seem like just the type to believe that their word is undeniable reality, and that anyone who contradicts them is calling them a liar and obviously mentally deficient for having the audacity to think differently.

 

[Unorthadox]

stuffs

So let me get this straight...

You wish for more environmental and mechanical variables that will determine the trajectory of a bullet, correct?

 

[theta123]

because right now its very silly, nothing to do with ww2

as soon as your head pops out somewhere, boom you dead, there are barely any firefights, just "sniping"

yeah because WW2 guns wherent accurate

if a K98 and mosin nagant hitted a person at 100 meters, it was pure luck

*facehoof

 

[Josef Nader]

yeah because WW2 guns wherent accurate

if a K98 and mosin nagant hitted a person at 100 meters, it was pure luck

*facehoof

Seriously! Don't you know that all the rifles in WWII were made with ****ty gunpowder, bent barrels, and crooked sights? It was a miracle that the gun didn't explode in your face! I mean obviously, every soldier shooting these rifles was frozen stiff, ****ting his brains out, and so terrified that he basically couldn't stop the trauma shakes, much less actually shoot anyone.

This game is totally unrealistic without 10" of sway and at LEAST 10" of bullet spread at 200m. I mean, the weapons back then were made to such piss-poor standards and the shooters were all sickly, cowardly, sissies. This all -has- to be modeled in game.

 

[catbarf]

So let me get this straight...

You wish for more environmental and mechanical variables that will determine the trajectory of a bullet, correct?

Pretty sure that's what he's saying. Personally, I'd like to see some deviation in rifle fire, as I think we can agree that no deviation at all is unrealistic, but also increased sway in situations that warrant it. Today I tried sprinting for about eight seconds then aiming down my MP40, and had about five pixels worth of sway. When I held shift, even less. That's just a little unbelievable.

 

[catbarf]

This game is totally unrealistic without 10" of sway and at LEAST 10" of bullet spread at 200m. I mean, the weapons back then were made to such piss-poor standards and the shooters were all sickly, cowardly, sissies. This all -has- to be modeled in game.

Um, are you saying you think any bullet spread is unrealistic? Seriously? I mean, I don't know how snidely mocking the idea of having at least some bullet spread can mean anything else.

 

[Unorthadox]

Pretty sure that's what he's saying. Personally, I'd like to see some deviation in rifle fire, as I think we can agree that no deviation at all is unrealistic, but also increased sway in situations that warrant it.

When it comes to that, I'm going to have to step away from realism for a second, and talk about gameplay.

I would be all for having to adjust due to weather and grime in my rifle, if it wasn't for the fact that bullet trajectory is calculated server side. When it comes to moving targets, we have to already adjust unrealistically in order to even hit a guy who is strafe-walking due to ping. You start adding weather and weapon conditions, and you can say goodbye to moderately educated shots, and say hello to luck. It would destroy rifles and make the game only run and gun. I'm all for realism, but there are things a game just can't have.

 

[catbarf]

I would be all for having to adjust due to weather and grime in my rifle, if it wasn't for the fact that bullet trajectory is calculated server side. When it comes to moving targets, we have to already adjust unrealistically in order to even hit a guy who is strafe-walking due to ping. You start adding weather and weapon conditions, and you can say goodbye to moderately educated shots, and say hello to luck. It would destroy rifles and make the game only run and gun. I'm all for realism, but there are things a game just can't have.

I don't necessarily mean wind, but just a bit of deviation to represent the fact that no gun is perfect. At longer range it should be difficult to hit moving targets, the thing is that the crazy, unlikely shots are the ones against people staying still in cover and yet still get picked off from long range, and latency doesn't affect that. As for run and gun, I feel like having the ability to sight in and kill someone in cover, even after sprinting, contributes to this. A bit of inaccuracy won't turn the game into Call of Duty, just make it a little less likely to get sniped by someone with obscene reaction time when you're out in the open for a second and a half running to cover two hundred yards away.

Also, bullet trajectory isn't exclusively server-side, netcode is a complicated thing but suffice to say that calculating some aspects of weapons fire client-side is the only way it can be playable. Latency does factor into hits, but it isn't that bad.

 

[Josef Nader]

I don't necessarily mean wind, but just a bit of deviation to represent the fact that no gun is perfect. At longer range it should be difficult to hit moving targets, the thing is that the crazy, unlikely shots are the ones against people staying still in cover and yet still get picked off from long range, and latency doesn't affect that. As for run and gun, I feel like having the ability to sight in and kill someone in cover, even after sprinting, contributes to this. A bit of inaccuracy won't turn the game into Call of Duty, just make it a little less likely to get sniped by someone with obscene reaction time when you're out in the open for a second and a half running to cover two hundred yards away.

Also, bullet trajectory isn't exclusively server-side, netcode is a complicated thing but suffice to say that calculating some aspects of weapons fire client-side is the only way it can be playable. Latency does factor into hits, but it isn't that bad.

But that's just the thing, mate. You can't account for player skill. I can't snap off 1 second headshots from 200m, even once in a blue moon. The target needs to either be stationary or out in the open for several seconds before stand a chance of landing any sort of killshot.

All you'd be doing now is punishing new players even more than they're already being punished, and making it random will only take away from an individual's skill. That just doesn't sit right with me, and too many games do it for "balance's" sake, in my opinion. Not only are you making things harder for your new players, you're devaluing individual skill and making it more luck based than needs to be.

 

[Velico]

In addition to this discussion, this has heretofore been unmentioned (at least from what I've read), the act of sabotage that was conducted by many of the nations under Germany's control in WW2. Poland, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France (and others I'm sure), carried out tasks to inhibit the German war machine.

"Copenhagen, in German occupied Denmark, was a favourite spot for German officers on R & R. In an effort to 'get their own back' members of a Danish resistance group opened up an Arts and Craft shop specializing in scroll work. They offered to personalize the officers side weapons by fitting ivory handles to their Lugers and cover the gun with artful designs and scroll work. Some were customized as gifts for fellow officers serving on other fronts. Trade was *****, but what was not explained was that the barrels were being modified by reducing the diameter inside and weakening the breach of the gun, which, when fired for the first time would blow up in the officers face. Of course these guns were never fired while the officer was on leave and any 'accidents' at the front were put down to 'casualties of war'. According to Harry Jensen, the only survivor of the resistance group, hundreds of these Lugers were modified this way before they closed shop and fled."
H

 

[Pip-boy]

Pretty sure that's what he's saying.

Yes. It's a simple random bullet spread WITHIN a predetermined limit if you like. Taking K98 and mosin here for example: ~10cm spread at 100m, 20 at 200 etc. Just for example.
Plus, as I said countless times, more gun sway. A shooter can not hold a weapon 100% steady unless it's in a special adjustment bench like this:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bench_master_rest.htm
Edit: ro1 had this kind of simple random spread mechanism for SA sniper rifles for both reds and germans. I am not asking the devs to re-invent the wheel here, just bring back what did work well.

I would be all for having to adjust due to weather

As i wrote in a separate thread about the drawbacks of sniper rifles we have in RO2 now, the ranges are such (around 250m max at any current official map) that any weather conditions like wind and humidity would not come into play unless we had proper size maps to begin with.
We pretty much have some marksmanship on maps now, no distances enough for proper sniping.

Um, are you saying you think any bullet spread is unrealistic? Seriously? I mean, I don't know how snidely mocking the idea of having at least some bullet spread can mean anything else.

Don`t feed the troll. He is tooo self-indulgent to listen or care.

Seriously, though. You're either a very clever troll or an intellect of such astounding stupidity that you probably hold the earth to be a 6000 year old flat disk underneath a solid firmament and that all of the species on earth could be repopulated from a single mating pair without any sort of genetic disasters occurring. You seem like just the type to believe that their word is undeniable reality, and that anyone who contradicts them is calling them a liar and obviously mentally deficient for having the audacity to think differently.

Eat a chocolate chip cookie kid, your blood sugar is dangerously low.
My skills in shooting IRL derive from doing just that, from being amongst people that do that on regular basis for a sport, and from talking to countless people doing the same or related things IRL be it regular soldiers, UN soldiers, you name it. It even goes way back to my grandfather who served in the red army in the rank of Major and was decorated for what he accomplished. So it's in the blood, if you want to put it this way.
All of the above is completely irrelevant to you however, because your only knowledge derives from yourself and maybe wikipedia, in areas that I know well from being physically involved in them.
That's how I know.
You've brought zero to this table, besides your childish and female-ish outbursts of an inferiority complex.
Now really, go beat off or finger yourself, and eat a cookie.

 

[palco]

@Rrralphster

I will be the judge.

1st Video:

Notice how long it took her to get her sights adjusted, it didn't happen near as quickly as it takes RO2 players get their shots off. That is because if you notice, her weapon is swaying, and she has to try to adjust. She then shoots at that one precise moment where her sway veered into the target then pulled the trigger. I'm glad she got it, but again, she's not being shot at, she's not cold, wet, hungry, and tired. Also, it's just one shot. Saying "oh this is possible cause this one chick this one time hit it". The other guy did it from a supported position and took a while as well.

2nd Video:

Same thing again, he is completely rested, in ideal conditions, and he still takes a long time to fire.

3rd Video:

Notice how when he stops shooting the SMG, he noticeably falls forward on his weight, that's because he was putting his weight on the weapon so as to keep it steady. That can easily be simulated with the mouse provided it's not a super exaggerated recoil like that seen in Darkest Hour. This will reduce the crazy accuracy some people are showing and actually require some skill on the part of the user to wield his weapon.

+1

My experience in firing range wasn't as smooth as RO2 is describing, I had to flinch myself while trying to stable the weapon kick backs, had to held my breath for better accuracy, I had to squeeze the trigger so gently not to affect accuracy, and had to keep focusing on iron sight alignment and target that it ends up blurring my vision once in every few dozen seconds.

This happened after well fed breakfast, good night's sleep.

and then I go back in my memory where I had to walk a literally more than thousand miles for training with all the heavy infantry gears, just simply thinking back about it, it really makes me wanna vomit.

There is a saying in my country, where for every male adult it's mendatory to serve in the army for 2 years, that if he wants to serve in the army again if someone gives him 0.1 millian for it?
and many would say

"No dice with that amount, if it's more than 0.5 milian, I will 'start' to 'think' about it."

This is a joke we do while in training, and after service.

( we get paid well for service, very different from richest army of U.S,; we got paid almost nothing, and it's just mendatory. )


Serving in the army and being in a training, which, I guess, would be far easier than real life combat cos in training really a small number of soldiers actually die, is very very hateful, disgusting memories (I mean the training part basically) for almost all of adults who served in the army, and it's the memory they never want to experience ever again.

It's really tiring, and exhausting, crazy experience, and memory that makes you wanna vomit.

Now combat will be worse than normal training situation, so you think soldiers can easily be that accurate with such small sway, fatigue stricken heavy breathing, no actual fear of being shot instantly? then you should experience crazy memory of basic training just like almost all of the male adults in my country.

Ask any one war vetran, I bet almost none of you actually can, how was the real combat and how many bullet they can land on the target, and what do they think about the combat accuracy and firing range accuracy.

You should be happy that you don't have to go through infantry basic training and enjoy such a joyful experience like most of us have to do for almost nothing because it's the law.

 

[catbarf]

All you'd be doing now is punishing new players even more than they're already being punished, and making it random will only take away from an individual's skill. That just doesn't sit right with me, and too many games do it for "balance's" sake, in my opinion. Not only are you making things harder for your new players, you're devaluing individual skill and making it more luck based than needs to be.

Adding no more than a foot of deviation at 200-300yds would punish new players and devalue skill? Aren't those mutually contradictory- if skill means less, new players have less of a disadvantage against more skilled veterans. In any case, I'm not asking for CoD-esque bullet spread where 50m is long range, just *some* spread, and enough sway that controlling sway becomes a skill as it was in RO1. Then the good players, who can use their mouse to compensate for sway, can still be accurate.