Accuracy needs to be reduced on ALL the weapons ingame

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Pip-boy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
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Nope, besides glass bedding one of the rifle's stock they're all original.
That's not very original, and that goes to prove my point.
What you say about other rifles being customised during the war is all fine, those are snipe rifles and are expected to be more precise.
However from stock K98s and Mosins such accuracy is all but impossible, also considering they used stock ammo. That is my point. There is noone on this planet that can get sub-moa out of a regular mosin with military surplus ammo, that is exactly my point.
Every rifle (except sniper rifles) need to be dramatically tuned down in-game, because that is how they perform. Not like your special rifle, but defenately more like my K98 and others.
2-3 MOA is what you expect from an assault rifle (albeit maybe not an AK47 :p)
2-3 MOA is what M16A1 would do with standard handguards, unfluted. AK would do far worse.
What people get from regular k98s and Mosings is such groupings with regular ammo. That is my point.
There it is, guys. All the sway you could possibly want.
We're comparing IRL rifles vs the game, not fraps captures on youtube.
 

Unorthadox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 1, 2011
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We're comparing IRL rifles vs the game, not fraps captures on youtube.

Even though that's a video of the game on youtube...


Anyways, what's this thread talking about now? All I'm seeing are posts about ammunition and the North Hollywood shootout.
 

aop

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 28, 2006
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My K98 will never do that, it`s 2-3 moa at least. You need to be more specific about the one you have and the ammo you use, because sum-moa with K98 is rarely possible (if ever) unless its floated and handloads are used.
I think I need to counterbore it though... but anyway: given the ammo they had, given not this nitpicky grouping that maybe 1 out of 10 rifles get, the spread is much more on average 2-3 moa.
And as I said, even more so for semiautos.
I can post if you like a video of an SVT that warps (!!) while being shot, so that's no sniper rifle either.

You think it`s fine, I don`t. We may agree to disagree but not 100 out of 100 K98`s will shoot sub-moa not by a longshot, unless they are hand-picked, floated, and fed some miracle ammo.

S***, sub-moa from that rifle would put it in same category as best bull barreled repeaters we have today. So IMHO you are either extremely lucky with yours, or its modded.
Don't do it. If you have original German WWII era K98 you are going to ruin it's value by counterboring it. You are better off by leaving it as "collector's piece" and get something like the M48 yugo mauser for target shooting.
 

Pip-boy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
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Don't do it. If you have original German WWII era K98 you are going to ruin it's value by counterboring it. You are better off by leaving it as "collector's piece" and get something like the M48 yugo mauser for target shooting.

I can buy another one for ~200$ where I live or less if I want to. It's a Norwegian surplus army .30-06 K98 not the "original" 8mm, but a 1936 model. It is of historic value to me, but its useless if it can't hit anything too. I could have it re-crowned and have the sights moved back so it would still look "un-bored".

Can I ask for longest kill made in the game with gun without scope on it?

My personal record is just over 200m, 220 or something like that. Someone probably has way better score than me, further kills are very possible if only the players were kind enough to stand still for a moment :-D
 

Holy.Death

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 17, 2011
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Pip-boy said:
My personal record is just over 200m, 220 or something like that. Someone probably has way better score than me, further kills are very possible if only the players were kind enough to stand still for a moment
It's close to mine as well. I kill people on 1-250 distance, but the further my target is (and when mobile)the harder it is to get kill or even hit, because of variety of factors.

The longest recorded shoot I know of is from sniper (with scope on his gun) who did post on these forums and it's slightly above 300 meters (311 or something like that). All other longest kills are more or less around 250 meters.

From link I posted when editing my previous post:
"The point is correct on not firing individual weapons at longer than 300m, you won't kill them and they can call fire down on you!"
What is longest recorded kill/hit from a gun without scope in World War 2? And are these informations (from link I mean) correct?
 
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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
1,713
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Even though that's a video of the game on youtube...


Anyways, what's this thread talking about now? All I'm seeing are posts about ammunition and the North Hollywood shootout.

Yeah, I'm confused. Everyone says that there needs to be more sway while standing and after sprinting, and from that video it looks like there's a significant amount of weapon sway after a second or two as your soldier catches his breath and his arms start to get tired.

Like I said, I was watching a friend play CoD yesterday, and there was, to be frank, a stupid amount of weapon sway on the sniper rifles. Looked like more luck than anything while using them. I'm quite sure all this was done in the name of "balance", but all it does is keep people from shooting each other from distances above 50m with even the most accurate of weapons. This turns the whole game into a run-and-gun, bunny hopping, I need to get within knife distance to kill you with my gun, twitchfest. Exactly the kind of game that everyone here claims to hate.

My point remains this. There is sway in RO2. Quite a bit, actually. More than enough to throw off your aim while standing or sprinting and more than enough to reward players who brace their weapons. The firearms in-game are also effective out to realistic distances. Human error is factored in through the player, and through a realistic level of weapon sway. Players are forced to play tactically, because if they don't they're easy targets for those of us that do. Adding more sway will do nothing but decrease the effective combat ranges in RO2 and make it -more- like CoD.

Please don't make this more like CoD. I -hate- CoD.
 

Pip-boy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
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The longest recorded shoot I know of is from sniper (with scope on his gun) who did post on these forums and it's slightly above 300 meters (311 or something like that). All other longest kills are more or less around 250 meters.
Do you know what map?
Is there a post about this shot? Would be fun to read.
I`d wager I could do even better, but main problem is we have no map I know of where this is possible since they all are too small and line of sight is always limited. I am assuming RO2 is by design a small-map game since it's about Stalingrad.
If we had some proper sniping maps though... that would be a whole new world.

OR... it just hit me... on FallenFighters that would be possible. I am guesstimating 250m maybe? Problem is there is fog in the game which makes it near impossible. Speaking of which, fog seems to be an obsession at TWI. I can not remember in my life that I have ever see so much fog so many places as in Ro :-D

What is longest recorded kill/hit from a gun without scope in World War 2? And are these informations (from link I mean) correct?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

This is only as a reference, I am assuming 300-400m would be the practical range. Just a wild guess on my part, there is probably something on the net about this.

Edit:
the page you link to makes sense and it rehashes what's already known about practical shooting ranges.
However in Afhanistan the afghans actually prefer long range (400-600m) engagements for some odd reason, and many US soldiers armed with M4 cabines often find themselves short-handed.
The debate of 5.56 vs 7.62 does not really apply to the game, since we don't have smaller calibres in it except the MKB, but drawing conclusions from that rifles that we *do* have in the game that acrticle does make sense.
Remember this applies to only those who actually like long range shots, not to people who like to bayonet other players inside houses and trenches :-D
There's nothing wrong with range in the game per-say, it's the overmodelled precision we need to get adjusted.
 
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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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Do you know what map?
Is there a post about this shot? Would be fun to read.
I`d wager I could do even better, but main problem is we have no map I know of where this is possible since they all are too small and line of sight is always limited. I am assuming RO2 is by design a small-map game since it's about Stalingrad.
If we had some proper sniping maps though... that would be a whole new world.

OR... it just hit me... on FallenFighters that would be possible. I am guesstimating 250m maybe? Problem is there is fog in the game which makes it near impossible. Speaking of which, fog seems to be an obsession at TWI. I can not remember in my life that I have ever see so much fog so many places as in Ro :-D

Ah, now the ball is in Josef's court.

The fog, limited draw distance, and the small maps are a limitation of the UT3 engine, not the fault of TWI. The engine, simply put, wasn't designed to handle such wide open spaces, or combat at ranges like what is represented in the game. Just look at the other UT3 games (CoD, GoW, etc.), most of them (all of the shooters, at least) take place in tight, claustrophobic maps with lots of twitch shooting and running and gunning. TWI had to -heavily- modify the engine to get where they are now, and even then I'd imagine they're hitting some pretty serious walls when it comes to map size and what have you.

As for the fog, it's a framerate thing. It helps boost the player's framerates without looking totally fake. Sure, some games look like they're taking place in London, but you take what you can get.
 

Inuki

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2011
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RO2 rifle sway - YouTube

/thread

There it is, guys. All the sway you could possibly want.

You realize that the ammount of sway there wouldn't really effect your aim for about 80+ meters (Which is about all of your kills). It barely moves. Try playing ArmA.

Also, I think everyone is completely disregarding the >LIMITATIONS OF GAMES USING A CONTROL DEVICE<. This is very important. How do you want to simulate the human factor of aiming a weapon? And how do you want to make firefights exist in this game so it becomes more fun and less "hide in a box"?

The best solution is to increase Sway. Unless you have a better solution? Because if you don't then moaning that increasing Sway isn't helping anyone who has an issue with this game and clearly ALOT of people do. So either come up with a better answer or realize that Sway is not that evil. Also, understand that your aim is pathetic and so is my aim because it doesn't take any effort to shoot people unless your hip firing an MG.
 
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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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You realize that the ammount of sway there wouldn't really effect your aim for about 80+ meters (Which is about all of your kills). It barely moves. Try playing ArmA.

Also, I think everyone is completely disregarding the >LIMITATIONS OF GAMES USING A CONTROL DEVICE<. This is very important. How do you want to simulate the human factor of aiming a weapon? And how do you want to make firefights exist in this game so it becomes more fun and less "hide in a box"?

The best solution is to increase Sway. Unless you have a better solution? Because if you don't then moaning that increasing Sway isn't helping anyone who has an issue with this game and clearly ALOT of people do. So either come up with a better answer or realize that Sway is not that evil. Also, understand that your aim is pathetic and so is my aim because it doesn't take any effort to shoot people unless your hip firing an MG.

Why does everyone tell me to go play ARMA when I shoot in real life on a regular basis? Honestly.

And for a man sized target inside of 80 yards, weapon sway WOULDN'T affect your shot too much unless, as I've said, you're drunk.

And by -a lot-, do you mean the .1% of the player base (Ramm's estimate, not mine) that posts here on the forums? Everyone else seems to be pretty happy playing the game. Just because we have a tiny subsection of folks convinced that ARMA and RO1 were the most realistic games ever doesn't mean that the entire player-base shares those opinions.

And guess what? Firefights in real life tend to be pretty lethal unless you're using cover, concealment, and tactical movement properly. I've said it before in huge, wordy posts I don't care to re-hash, but long story short, every armed service in the world dedicates tons of training to teaching soldiers how to avoid exposing themselves to fire. Why? Because guns are accurate, and if you can be seen, you can be shot. Adding arcadey weapon sway is only going to sap the realism from the game.
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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That's not very original, and that goes to prove my point.

Like I said only one of them has a glass bedded stock, the other one doesn't, and shooting the reloaded WW2 surplus ammunition I use they will both produce sub MOA groups. One rifle has always been a prestine shooter, the other one I struggled to get below 1 MOA until I decided to try and glass bed the stock, which did the trick as now it shoots sub MOA groups as-well.

However from stock K98s and Mosins such accuracy is all but impossible, also considering they used stock ammo. That is my point. There is noone on this planet that can get sub-moa out of a regular mosin with military surplus ammo, that is exactly my point.
Every rifle (except sniper rifles) need to be dramatically tuned down in-game, because that is how they perform. Not like your special rifle, but defenately more like my K98 and others.

Well here's the issue; German wartime sS ammunition is of such a high manufacturing standard that it sometimes rivals match grade ammunition, which is quite unique. Only other type of WW2 surplus I have come across with a similar high build quality is Swiss 7.5x55mm.

But the story is entirely different when talking about Soviet wartime ammunition, which in general is of low standards even for that period, both in terms of propellant charge consistency and projectile dimensions etc etc.. (they were obviously in a hurry to get this made) And I should know since I've owned and fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of WW2 surplus from both nations.

2-3 MOA is what M16A1 would do with standard handguards, unfluted. AK would do far worse.
What people get from regular k98s and Mosings is such groupings with regular ammo. That is my point.

All I gotta say is: Next time when you go shooting your K98 make sure to shoot bullets of heavy weight, 190+ grain bullets, as these rifles were designed specifically to fire bullets in this weight range. Also preferably go for bullets with a similar shape as the original sS round which the rifle was designed around, as these will perform the best. A good place to start would be Sellier & Bellot's 196 grain FMJBT round, which performs very closely to the orginal sS round, with a slightly lower but similar average BC of .557, also the build quality of the round is straight out the same as German wartime sS ammunition: nice and high standard.

Also if you really wanna know the true capability of your rifle, make sure you don't use the std. iron sights, get a scope on it, and make sure the rifle is fully rested when shooting. Otherwise there's simply too much human error involved to ever get a good idea of just how accurate your rifle is.

Here's Leigh with his all original K98 fitted with an also all original 6x power Zielsechs scope on the 800 yard range, ammunition used is S&B's 196 grain FMJBT, target size is again approx. 18 inches in diameter:
Rifle Channel : German Mauser Kar 98k Sniper 800 Yards PT2 - YouTube

End result:
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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  1. There is a significant difference in ammo.
  2. There are SEPARATE modifications of bolt vs bolt sniper vs semiauto sniper rifles.
  3. Various differences in quality between German and USSR produced weapons, all with their own advancements and drawbacks.
None of which do we have in RO2!

Actually the devs said that they take into consideration the difference in ammunition quality, and that this is the prime reason behind the K98's slightly higher accuracy ingame.

Now obviously one could not complain if a German bolt sniper rifle shot tight groups, or the Mosin sniper for that matter.
What I do have an issue with is bolt and semiauto infrantry riles in the game performing just as good! That is completely unrealistic!

Well, to be honest, at the ranges we see ingame atm it would be very hard to tell the real difference between each rifle. And at 300 meters a semi auto rifle should be perfectly capable of tight enough groups for consistent headshots.

But I think we should wait making any assumptions regarding the actual accuracy of each weapon ingame until we actually get some real long range maps ingame.

All that is wonderful advice and I will be modding my mauser some time when I have the money for it. Alas, now I am building a ~10k $ IPSC rifle, so priorities are elsewhere :-D
One thing though, it will shoot tighter than the K98, it`s got a barrel thick enough to be a train car wheel axle ;-)

It might, but it's not because the barrel is thicker (at least not for the first 5 shots), it will be for other reasons :)
 

Holy.Death

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 17, 2011
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Pip-boy said:
Because we have the close-quarters combat where it should be atm, except for the instant-sighting all weapons have.
I am not sure if I read it right, but are you saying that CQC is fine the way it is now, save for quick ADS?

Pip-boy said:
BUT - the long range part is ignored, that`s why.
What do you mean by the long range being ignored? No sway and bullet spread? As far as I know - or, should I say, from what I was told - TWI is focused on fixing performance/the most important bugs/problems right now and after some time they will add changes slowly. They even admitted to adopt mods that people will like. Sounds promising.

Pip-boy said:
Add sway, and add spread. They had that before I don't see a problem re-introducing that.
Sway:
1. How big should it be considering standard (if that is even possible to say) Stalingrad/World War 2 soldier? I mean that training and build should be taken into account. Should more experienced soldier be less affected by sway?
2. How heavy were long range weapons? Because we need to compare that with typical strenght and training of typical soldier to make sway as correct as possible.
3. How did shoots from long range weapons look like at Stalingrad? What was effective use of long range weapon (maybe I should stick to "rifle" for term simplicity or do we discuss all weapons?) on various distances (let's say from 1 to 300 for effectivness sake, longer shoots should still be possible as Simo H
 
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corn holer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 24, 2011
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ruin the game

ruin the game

I hope to god they dont make the guns any less accurate. It would ruin the game. If you guys get shot a lot, you just need to learn how to counter it. I dont die any more in RO2 than i did in crappy arcade shooters like battlefield or COD.
 

Pip-boy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
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Actually the devs said that they take into consideration the difference in ammunition quality, and that this is the prime reason behind the K98's slightly higher accuracy ingame.
Don't you too start with this... "what the devs said"... devs said this was not a beta release, which is clearly a lie and I know for a FACT I`d hit anyone with ANY of the rifles they have in game in the head at 200+ meters. Given ~2-3MOA spread average from RL experience for mosin, and at LEAST 3-4MOA spread for AVTs don't you think that at those ranges the LIKELYHOOD of such ideal hits would be somehwat left to chance?
It`s not. They are too precise.

And at 300 meters a semi auto rifle should be perfectly capable of tight enough groups for consistent headshots.
I can post a link to a video where an SVTs barrel warps more than the cellulites on Oprah. Give me a word and you`ll see it. No... fkin...way... that thing will EVER shoot on par with bolt rifles.
I's putting butter on bacon here so to speak, but it was obvious to the soviets already then that's why Mosin was preferred sniper rifle.

It might, but it's not because the barrel is thicker (at least not for the first 5 shots), it will be for other reasons
At least looking trough an S&B PMII sitting on an ERA-TAC mount I will be saying like the random chat from the NPC tankers "Ahhhh, German egineering!" LOL!

I am not sure if I read it right, but are you saying that CQC is fine the way it is now, save for quick ADS?
Hallelujah! You've seen the light! :D
What do you mean by the long range being ignored? No sway and bullet spread?
The Lord has taken the veil of false RO2-hopes from your eyes and enlightened you! AAAAAAAmennnnnnn-ahhh!

They even admitted to adopt mods that people will like. Sounds promising.
Keeping my fingers crossed, but given they can't even get the game to start without crashing and glitching in a million different ways, that's a long time away from us.
All your questions under this topic could be resolved by TWI getting the guns... that I know they have, or have borrorwed... duct-taping a camera to them, and have them hold them as steadely as they can. Maybe give them to some professionals. Look at the footage and decide themselves.
They have this XP thing going on, good, maybe sway would be slightely less for players with more XP or something.
All shots should be possible though, but those factors would translate that shot into a %-probability of hit.

1. How to make spread correct (what is correct spread)?
2. Which weapons should be affected (I mean, do auto weapons have correct spread)?
Look at data from people that own these kinds of weapons, see that *appropriate* ammo was used that is as close in performance to what they had back then... or like Unus Offa, Unus Nex here maybe even see at the ammo from that time period, look at the results and make an average. That won't be 100% correct for every individual weapon, but it will be statistically correct though.
After all these changes - will accurate shooting at effective combat range (and above) still be possible?
This questions brings our discussion to a complete circle. That would *force* people to determine the max effective range and use weapons accordingly.
Just like in real life a practical range is not a product of someone's wild imagination, but a practical conclusion that derives from practical limitations and experience, it would "fix itself".
For example, at 300+ range in RO using a scoped SVT was a waste of time and effort, it was not precise enough.
That limitation forced the player to use it at effective distances, below that number.
 

Holy.Death

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 17, 2011
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Pip-boy said:
The Lord has taken the veil of false RO2-hopes from your eyes and enlightened you! AAAAAAAmennnnnnn-ahhh!
No. I am just not forcing my perspective upon yours. I keep an open mind, because there is nothing else I can do. All I can do is to gather the data, find someone competent enough who can confirm it for me, compare it with the game and then be able to make any kind of conclusion. I know that 2 + 2 = 4 because I know that I have "2", "+" and "2". And I know that outcome is "4". Knowing "4" is pointless without equalization. It's like already knowing the answer before the question is given. That makes no sense. When we make an equalization then we can see the results. That makes sense.

Pip-boy said:
Keeping my fingers crossed, but given they can't even get the game to start without crashing and glitching in a million different ways, that's a long time away from us.
Not so. Moders will do that for TWI. TWI will only add that as official. And everybody should be happy when everybody will have access to something the actually WANT. Or that only sounds so easy for me.

Pip-boy said:
This questions brings our discussion to a complete circle.
I would put that in a bit different perspective. Answer to this question(s) is like answering all answers that ever has been asked about long range combat in Red Orchestra 2, it's universal Accuracy's Holy Grail. And I am not joking.

Now I know what all of this is about. Truth has been unrevealed. All your struggle with Josef Nader and his with you was pointless.

He doesn't want the game to become COD-like. And by that he means to be able to keep long range combat effective. To not force everyone into "run & gun", because no one can hit anyone on larger distances. You don't want to turn this game into COD-like either. All you want is to make long range shoots a bit more challenging (which is not COD-like desire too, because COD is kind of synonim for something unchallenging on these forums, I guess), but NOT impossible/worthless/COD-like (short ranged). Only less effective. You have common goal.

All you fight for is "how much"? I suggest you (and by that I mean ALL of you on these forums) to try to reach common value of long range effectivness rather than keep fighting that everything is fine/wrong.

By the way, game is good for me as it is now, but that doesn't mean it can't get better.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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I can post a link to a video where an SVTs barrel warps more than the cellulites on Oprah. Give me a word and you`ll see it. No... fkin...way... that thing will EVER shoot on par with bolt rifles.
I's putting butter on bacon here so to speak, but it was obvious to the soviets already then that's why Mosin was preferred sniper rifle.

The SVT is kind of a unique case here because of its' construction. Anyway, despite the barrel whip the rifle can still be accurate, seeing barrel whip has the biggest influence on accuracy when the time between shots is short, such as in fast semi auto fire and esp. during automatic fire - hence the low accuracy of the AK47.

Also let's not compare this game with RO1 please, cause the spread of the semi autos in RO1 was certainly NOT realistic! Semi automatic rifles can definitely be relied upon to hit an upper torso sized target at 300 m.

I have a close friend who owns a couple of G43s and some SVT40's, and the G43's are solid 1.5 to 2 MOA rifles (iron sights), whilst the SVT40's shoot roughly 2.5 to 3 MOA groups (some are as bad as 4-5 MOA, but I blame that on the condition of those particular rifles)

Anyway this sort of accuracy should be enough to guarantee consistent hits on a upper torso sized target out to 300-400 meters.

Picture I stole from wiki:


At least looking trough an S&B PMII sitting on an ERA-TAC mount I will be saying like the random chat from the NPC tankers "Ahhhh, German egineering!" LOL!

Hehe, no doubt ;)
 
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