Weapon balance

[Zetsumei]

The one main fault I see with RO atm is the hip shooting, if kids paint a dot on their screen, they are snipers from the hip and this is stupid. As unrealistic as it is, this needs to be addressed because if this game becomes popular, it will get abused and ruin the game for many people. it doesn't reduce in accuracy if you are moving either, its clearly bugged at the moment, its not even realistic. I think it should be slightly nerfed just so it can't be abused. Please trust me when I say, I can hold my own with a bolt action, i actually prefer them for the challenge and I can see just stupid this is atm.

for hipshooting you cannot paint a dot to your screen and you can see why if you watch the rohos video. On the redorchestra irc channel it was said that the recentering the freeaim bug from ostfront is gone as well.

You say that less recoil on a smg is going to be so bad, but have you ever played the mod of ro. Because there was no resting of weaponry all weapons always had rested recoil (or atleast so it seemed). It didn't create a run and gun gameplay.

If you really want to talk about weapon balance, SMG's if they should stay as effective as in ostfront need to become stronger in rohos because of the fov zoom. If the playing range is increased balance wise to keep the game the same as in ostfront you need to increase the range of all weaponry.

I want a game that keeps balance of teams into mind in map design and encopes weapon superiority in balance with rarity just like ostfront. The strongest weapons in ostfront are by far the mg and sniper, the balance is kept exactly because of limiting classes. But i dont want to play mirrorred maps with mirrorered weaponry that just looks different.

If there would be a DH2 comming out they will probably aim to make the game more realistic atleast the DH team aimed for doing that over RO logically taking some things in account.

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You seem to not want run and gun gameplay, making most weapons be about fighting at more realistic ranges is exactly the opposite from run and gun gameplay. As you're forced to play more stationary to have success.

SMG rounds have bad penetrational capabilities, have massive bulletdrop, long travel time.

Rifle rounds have much better penetrational capabilities, much less bulletdrop, shorter travel time.

This should differentiate SMG's and RIfles enough to keep a form of difference.

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How would stopping power go up in the game with a different hit detection, pretty much all weapons are already a 1 hit kill. The only difference is probably that you can make more less fatal kills so that would mean less stopping power.

The rate of fire in red orchestra ostfront is exactly what the rate of fire was pretty much. 900 bullets per minute for the PPSH and 1200 bullets per minute for a mg42 (max of 20tick netspeed). So rate of fire probably wont change.

 

[Mormegil]

If SMGs end up dominating in close range, so be it, because that's realism.

Rifles will further dominate at long range due to the realistic zoom now implemented. As I mentioned in another thread, at 200 meters, a MN round would drop 4 cm, while an MP40 round would drop 3 feet. Big difference in accuracy there.


BTW: The reason no army issues SMGs as their standard issue weapon is because assault rifles are a great compromise between a standard rifle and an SMG. You get your rifle range and close enough accuracy (drop in accuracy can be compensated by putting more lead onto the target), but you also get burst fire abilities useful in an assault situation, like the SMG is designed for.

I guess what we are saying is that RO has a huge following of supporters because of the SKILLS required to play such a game and so far from what we can see is that there will be NO skills required to play HOS.

We've only seen "Relaxed Realism" which by definition as a beginner mode will require less skill. So we don't know exactly what will and won't be in "Realism" mode. TW isn't dumb, they make games we and they enjoy, so unless they've all been playing CS, I don't think we need to worry too much about it.

 

[MtnMan01]

If SMGs end up dominating in close range, so be it, because that's realism.

Rifles will further dominate at long range due to the realistic zoom now implemented. As I mentioned in another thread, at 200 meters, a MN round would drop 4 cm, while an MP40 round would drop 3 feet. Big difference in accuracy there.


BTW: The reason no army issues SMGs as their standard issue weapon is because assault rifles are a great compromise between a standard rifle and an SMG. You get your rifle range and close enough accuracy (drop in accuracy can be compensated by putting more lead onto the target), but you also get burst fire abilities useful in an assault situation, like the SMG is designed for.



We've only seen "Relaxed Realism" which by definition as a beginner mode will require less skill. So we don't know exactly what will and won't be in "Realism" mode. TW isn't dumb, they make games we and they enjoy, so unless they've all been playing CS, I don't think we need to worry too much about it.

I agree,,your posts make a lot of sense Mormegil ,

TWI will get this right.
Balance weapons...No,,No,,No. Just make them realistic,with real world recoil,ballistics,,etc,,,this is why I play this game,,,,

 

[EvilAmericanMan]

SMG rounds have ****e penetrational capabilities, have massive bulletdrop, long travel speed.

Rifle rounds have much better penetrational capabilities, much less bulletdrop, shorter travel speed.

This should differentiate SMG's and RIfles enough to keep a form of difference.

What do you mean by travel speed? I thought that rifle rounds go downrange faster because they're shot from longer barrels among other differences from SMGs??

 

[Zetsumei]

I meant travel time not speed aka the time to get to the target takes longer on smgs than with rifles.

I edited the typo out of the post ^^.

 

[heath4n]

No matter how you look at it, some facts cannot be argued.

No-one is going to do anything bar full auto with a SMG anymore to manage the recoil, this quite simply takes away one of the best parts about RO, management of recoil. No more 1 or 2 bullet or even 5-6 controlled sprays, just hold m1 at all times, it is unarguable to suggest this is more fun. One of the fun parts about RO is mastering all the different recoils of all the different guns, now its pretty much going to be the same.

Hip SMG fire is going to be far easier to pull off now because there is almost no recoil.

Bullet drop isn't a issue at all realistically in RO, its that simple. All decent maps are not big enough to really make this come into play therefore bullet drop is not going to limit a SMG in practical terms for RO2. You basically never fight at 100 metres let alone 200 metres.

The MG is going to be heaps more powerful, no tracers, far easier to mount it on anything plus the pivot based aim system.

It's very simple, recoil is one of the most important parts in a game as it makes it harder to hit. Going all out realism will lead to a boring game, a balance has to be struck and my point has been comprehensively proven by the success of Darkest Hour.

They rolled back the realism regarding the guns to make it a better game and they succeeded amazingly well because DH is easily the most played mod and is more played than RO itself.

What now has been suggested is that RO2 is going to ignore this and in fact go even further away from the original RO in terms of realism which will make it far worse. Instead of noting the success of a balanced set of guns, RO2 is actually going in the opposite direction.

Again, I'm scared that the game I am so looking forward to is going to change so dramatically especially when what I saw was in the relaxed realism mode. Finally, I don't have a problem with a completely realism version of it but I want to be able to play a proper version of "relaxed realism" which doesn't wreck the core competitive advantages of RO.

 

[Zetsumei]

They wanted to make maps of realistic distances to targets aka 100 and 200 meters will play an effect. To be able to play at that range the fov zoom was added.

The mp40 fired pretty slow so you could aim every individual bullet. Still if you fire full auto in ironsight youre still not super accurate simply because of the breathing system aka you should shoot in pauses of breathing.

 

[Zennousha]

Not to mention if you go full auto every time you encounter someone, especially with the PPSh41, you're not going to have ammo for very long.

 

[Mormegil]

No matter how you look at it, some facts cannot be argued.

I disagree

No-one is going to do anything bar full auto with a SMG anymore to manage the recoil, this quite simply takes away one of the best parts about RO, management of recoil. No more 1 or 2 bullet or even 5-6 controlled sprays, just hold m1 at all times, it is unarguable to suggest this is more fun. One of the fun parts about RO is mastering all the different recoils of all the different guns, now its pretty much going to be the same.

We've only seen Relaxed Realism, they may have toned down recoil in that mode, but kept it higher in the Realism mode.

Bullet drop isn't a issue at all realistically in RO, its that simple. All decent maps are not big enough to really make this come into play therefore bullet drop is not going to limit a SMG in practical terms for RO2. You basically never fight at 100 metres let alone 200 metres.

We've seen one map in RO2. How do you know we won't be fighting at 200 meters? TWI has stated the realistic IS zoom is intended to make fighting at realistic ranges occur, so 200 meters with a rifle is likely to happen a lot. At those ranges the SMG is practically useless.

The MG is going to be heaps more powerful, no tracers, far easier to mount it on anything plus the pivot based aim system.

How do we know they have no tracers. TWI likes their tracers, and it's probably just not implemented yet. Besides, MGs were WAY underpowered in ROO with lack of penetration, super bring tracers (during the day), etc. MGs are meant to suppress and scare you. You shouldn't be able to easily pick them off with your rifle.


Basically, your worried that RO2 will ruin your pwnage with a rifle. Rifle pwnage isn't realistic, otherwise SMGs and assault rifles wouldn't have been developed. TW is trying to make a FUN realistic game. Yes you may loose some pwnage at short range with a rifle, but this makes the class system even more important, as you NOT suppose to pwn with a rifle in close quarter combat.

 

[VariousNames]

Yeah, high velocity rounds coming out of a long barrel at high velocity with pinpoint accuracy.....damn, those things suck.

Just ask the US military, who loves their .223. In fact, it seems like the full-auto capability has REALLY taken off with the US military lately.

[url]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/06/cbsnews_investigates/main1688223.shtml[/URL]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#M16A2[/URL]

"The action was also modified, replacing the fully-automatic setting with a three-round burst setting.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#cite_note-Venola-3 When using a fully-automatic weapon, poorly trained troops often hold down the trigger and 'spray' when under fire. The U.S. Army concluded that three-shot groups provide an optimum combination of ammunition conservation, accuracy and firepower."

Also, the M4 Carbine (excepting the M4A1, which is apparently issued to special forces) only has semi-automatic and three-round burst firing modes.

The M4/M16 are obviously great rifles, they're combat, you can carry a lot of ammo, they have decent ballistics, the rounds have enormous muzzle velocity, etc...

But the fact of the matter is most of the US military uses 3 round bursts of .223 or semi-automatic fire to put shots downrange. You have to ask yourself whether that makes sense when the obvious alternative is the earlier M14 rifle which fired the 7.62x51mmNATO cartridge, which would quite sufficiently kill any bad guys at any reasonable combat range with a single shot.

Let's see, we can get accuracy and stopping power from a single round, or we could throw bullets at a target.

This is not to mention the fact that most militaries train their soldiers not to needlessly waste ammunition, which is something I understand happens a whole lot in combat. Semi-automatic high-caliber rifles are extraordinarily useful, and obviously controllable. I have to say I prefer them in theory, and in my digital combat experience, I prefer them in practice. Give me an M1 Garand or an SVT-40 over an STG44 in most combat situations and I'm quite happy.

It just doesn't make any sense that the military has moved from the M14, a highly accurate and powerful cartridge to the M16A2, which takes three rounds to do the same thing and has no full auto capability.

Danzig is about the only map in Ost Front where fully automatic fire is even preferable.

 

[Erich]

It just doesn't make any sense that the military has moved from the M14, a highly accurate and powerful cartridge to the M16A2, which takes three rounds to do the same thing and has no full auto capability.

Doesn't make sense? Try lugging around that extra weight for the same amount of ammo. If there is one misconception that people these days hold about combat is that they would be all calm and collective all the time and make all their shots count. Where in reality you are scared, pumped full of adrenaline, constantly moving and breathing hard. Not to mention the enemy does not like to just stand out in the open to get shot at, you need to pour rounds down range to suppress the enemy so that you can maneuver to destroy them.

 

[Apos]

That what we can see in gamescom videos is norecoil (or close to it), magic zoom and breathing system. TWI said they tested weapon by their own... well i can agree with part of that.

Let's say, if you keep your mouse in same spot (dont move it during shooting) it suppost to be like in real life situation where you don't use your left hand to control weapon recoil. When u press fire weapon goes up. In CoD games crosshain stays in almost same spot.
If you're moving mouse down when you're shooting it should be like holding weapon by left hand and keep weapon recoil controlled. It works OK in RO:O. TWI wants to change it and make game much easier...

YouTube - PPSh Recoil

RO:O. full auto, guy controlling his recoil by mouse movement.

I don't understant why players have a problems with RO:O recoil. It maybe suppost to be bit more accurate, has bit less recoil but not like that what we saw in gamerscom's video.

 

[Mormegil]

A possibility is the difference in "perceived" recoil and real recoil. Remember in ROO, we're zoomed way out compared to what we see in real life. So a realistic amount of recoil looks like too little recoil. So they exaggerate recoil to make it look / feel right.

But in ROHOS, the recoil may look / feel right when in IS at a realistic zoom, but look way too small when zoomed out in hipped mode. That and TW did say they tightened it up some.

Maybe it'll be a little less tight in Realism mode.

 

[barakas]

That what we can see in gamescom videos is norecoil (or close to it), magic zoom and breathing system. TWI said they tested weapon by their own... well i can agree with part of that.

Let's say, if you keep your mouse in same spot (dont move it during shooting) it suppost to be like in real life situation where you don't use your left hand to control weapon recoil. When u press fire weapon goes up. In CoD games crosshain stays in almost same spot.
If you're moving mouse down when you're shooting it should be like holding weapon by left hand and keep weapon recoil controlled. It works OK in RO:O. TWI wants to change it and make game much easier...

YouTube - PPSh Recoil

RO:O. full auto, guy controlling his recoil by mouse movement.

I don't understant why players have a problems with RO:O recoil. It maybe suppost to be bit more accurate, has bit less recoil but not like that what we saw in gamerscom's video.

I've never seen anyone handle PPSh recoil that well.

When I'm firing the PPSh, if I want to keep firing in the middle of the screen, my mouse is at the edge of my desk before I'm even half way through the mag. The only way to avoid this is to put the sensitivity way up, and then its way to high to try and pixel hunt with a rifle.

I think the recoil should be tailored to the average player, and how natural it feels compared to real life, not the odd player who has a massive desk or can handle a ultra high sensitivity mouse.

 

[REZ]

I dont know if Apos made that video or not, but whoever did I'd like to congratulate them on the choice of music - 'Yo ho, Yo ho, a pirate's life for meeee!'

 

[Agenda_Suicide]

I've never seen anyone handle PPSh recoil that well.

When I'm firing the PPSh, if I want to keep firing in the middle of the screen, my mouse is at the edge of my desk before I'm even half way through the mag. The only way to avoid this is to put the sensitivity way up, and then its way to high to try and pixel hunt with a rifle.

I think the recoil should be tailored to the average player, and how natural it feels compared to real life, not the odd player who has a massive desk or can handle a ultra high sensitivity mouse.

Get a logitech mouse that can change sensitivity on the fly and to will be able to master recoil. I own a G5 .

 

[heath4n]

Thats a very good point actually that I didn't even think of.

I think TW have not realised that by making the recoil like they have in RO2, they have actually made the game less realistic by mistake even though they think they are trying to make it more realistic.

Essentially, the mouse represents your aim and they have wrongly assumed that the action of pulling your arms down, left and right to contain recoil has been completely forgotten about.

Ultimately, I think that once TW sits down and discusses this, I'm sure they will actually see that the recoil may need to be changed as it's simply not realistic in it's current form for both relaxed realism and hardcore realism.

 

[heath4n]

I think what TW need to do is hold a PPSH with one hand (lol dangerous) and hold the trigger and see where the guns ends up. The action of moving the mouse down simply would be holding the gun as straight as possible.

As Apos showed, managing the recoil in RO currently is not expertly hard, its just a matter of moving the mouse down, left and right pending on where the recoil takes the gun.

The other thing to account for is that I couldn't see a soldier being able to hold the recoil anywhere near as effectively as what we see in real life today simply because of conditions. When you are firing in combat, you are also concentrating on looking for people who may be shooting at you, grenades and all sorts of things whereas, today, you can completely focus 100% on containing recoil.....

 

[Mormegil]

Ultimately, I think that once TW sits down and discusses this, I'm sure they will actually see that the recoil may need to be changed as it's simply not realistic in it's current form for both relaxed realism and hardcore realism.

When have you seen the implementation in "hardcore realism"?

 

[VariousNames]

Thats a very good point actually that I didn't even think of.

I think TW have not realised that by making the recoil like they have in RO2, they have actually made the game less realistic by mistake even though they think they are trying to make it more realistic.

Essentially, the mouse represents your aim and they have wrongly assumed that the action of pulling your arms down, left and right to contain recoil has been completely forgotten about.

Ultimately, I think that once TW sits down and discusses this, I'm sure they will actually see that the recoil may need to be changed as it's simply not realistic in it's current form for both relaxed realism and hardcore realism.

Good point. I hope they reconsider and end up somewhere in a happy middle. The gun should have kick, just kick you can compensate for with mouse movements and have roughly equal the real kick of the firearm.

Unless, of course, the gun doesn't kick or climb in real life and you don't have to compensate for it. But there definitely needs to be climb and kick because that's probably not the case.