That's the thing though. Go even watch videos of people full autoing the PPSh41. They hardly fight it at all, and even claimed as much. Right now you have to fight it like it was a Thompson or something.
Weapon balance
- Thread starter MattyDienhoff
- Start date
It isn't my movie, I just found it on youtube. Anyway it's great proof that weapon from RO:O can be accurate when player manage recoil.
It's actually good idea to mavie a short videos with and w/o managed firing, but why? TWI should know how theirs recoil works in RO:O.
Now look that video
YouTube - ppsh41
It's very close to that what we can see in RO:O.
In RO:HOS's gamescom video it's looks more like pressing magic breath control button and shooting to same spot w/o recoil. I hope that what we could see is alpha version for consoles (it might be hard to control firing and recoil with pads). If not... well nice joke. TWI promiss us more realism and we will get CoD-type realism...
@REZ it's now my movie but song rocks
ps. note how often PPSH41 jammed during firing
It's actually good idea to mavie a short videos with and w/o managed firing, but why? TWI should know how theirs recoil works in RO:O.
Now look that video
YouTube - ppsh41
It's very close to that what we can see in RO:O.
In RO:HOS's gamescom video it's looks more like pressing magic breath control button and shooting to same spot w/o recoil. I hope that what we could see is alpha version for consoles (it might be hard to control firing and recoil with pads). If not... well nice joke. TWI promiss us more realism and we will get CoD-type realism...
@REZ it's now my movie but song rocks
ps. note how often PPSH41 jammed during firing
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There is still recoil on the guns and it still has to be managed.....
However like Ramm stated, there is less recoil on the guns we found to have less recoil in real life after having more hands on time with specific weapons.
However like Ramm stated, there is less recoil on the guns we found to have less recoil in real life after having more hands on time with specific weapons.
And its hard to see how much recoil there is from a video.
I made a short video of how recoil looks like on my screen with roost (with 60fps).
And i only use rifles and never play with smg's (so im horrible at supressing the recoil) ramm is quite a bit more of an smg user so we can expect that hes a lot better than me at supressing recoil. And tbh i dont see that much recoil in my little video.
YouTube - ROOSTRecoil
here is a video of someone firing a ppsh as well don't see that much recoil here.
YouTube - PPSh-41
YouTube - Ppsh 41 calibro 7,62 Tokarev
I made a short video of how recoil looks like on my screen with roost (with 60fps).
And i only use rifles and never play with smg's (so im horrible at supressing the recoil) ramm is quite a bit more of an smg user so we can expect that hes a lot better than me at supressing recoil. And tbh i dont see that much recoil in my little video.
YouTube - ROOSTRecoil
here is a video of someone firing a ppsh as well don't see that much recoil here.
YouTube - PPSh-41
YouTube - Ppsh 41 calibro 7,62 Tokarev
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Should the sound of the PPSH41 be changed? It sounds insanely annoying in Ostfront, and in reality sounds much different. At least it does to me.
I haven't read the whole thread but I have no problem with SMGs being "overpowered" as long as there's the same system in place that limits each role to a certain number, so most of the players are still running around with bolts.
I'd much rather have all the weapons acting as true to life as possible than "weapon balancing".
Regardless, there will be maps like StalingradKessel that are dominated by SMGs and maps like Kryokovo that are dominated by bolts.
I'd love to see the ridiculous recoil from the SMGs removed, as well as increase the accuracy of the semis to realistic levels.
I'd much rather have all the weapons acting as true to life as possible than "weapon balancing".
Regardless, there will be maps like StalingradKessel that are dominated by SMGs and maps like Kryokovo that are dominated by bolts.
I'd love to see the ridiculous recoil from the SMGs removed, as well as increase the accuracy of the semis to realistic levels.
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Yoshiro,
Did you actually test the recoil of the guns with one hand?
Obviously you didn't but if you want the recoil to be realistic, you can't make the assumption that people will pull down on the recoil without any corrosponding movement of the mouse, you have to model the gun so that you are not pulling down the gun in anyway to represent the true relationship between the mouse and the controlling of recoil.
Please organise a meeting with the team about this because recoil is one if the most important components of a successful game.
Did you actually test the recoil of the guns with one hand?
Obviously you didn't but if you want the recoil to be realistic, you can't make the assumption that people will pull down on the recoil without any corrosponding movement of the mouse, you have to model the gun so that you are not pulling down the gun in anyway to represent the true relationship between the mouse and the controlling of recoil.
Please organise a meeting with the team about this because recoil is one if the most important components of a successful game.
It isn't my movie, I just found it on youtube. Anyway it's great proof that weapon from RO:O can be accurate when player manage recoil.
It's actually good idea to mavie a short videos with and w/o managed firing, but why? TWI should know how theirs recoil works in RO:O.
Now look that video
YouTube - ppsh41
It's very close to that what we can see in RO:O.
In RO:HOS's gamescom video it's looks more like pressing magic breath control button and shooting to same spot w/o recoil. I hope that what we could see is alpha version for consoles (it might be hard to control firing and recoil with pads). If not... well nice joke. TWI promiss us more realism and we will get CoD-type realism...
@REZ it's now my movie but song rocks
ps. note how often PPSH41 jammed during firing
Makes a good case for weapon jams being common in RO:HOS where the weapons might be in even worse shape.
Who says ramm is not pulling down on the mouse and controlling recoil...
How much experience do you have with shooting a real mp40 and ppsh heath4n to know that its really off in the video..?
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Or maybe we can expect a ROHOB Heroes of Berlin expansion pack
The battle of Berlin would be to difficult to portray in a realistic way.
Why is that if i may ask, or atleast why is it more difficult than the battle of stalingrad?
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Oh! That's not difficult at all then. You just don't have to lead the targets as much.
Zetsumi,
1. You could easily see there was no recoil in the video, if there was, Ramm has amazing skills because it barely twitched at all.
2. Ramm stated that the recoil has been reduced because of real testing.
3. When you made those videos, your gun is twitching around like a ***** even though you are keeping it in the centre.
4. Lastly, Yoshiro also verifies that their is less recoil, again, it's blatently obvious.
I have fired all sorts of guns, from a fully automatic (modded of course) SKS to a dodgy double barrel shotgun that I used to own that would fire both barrels at once half the time lol. I have fired a uzi before and if you are not pulling down on that thing, it pulls up.
I just fear that in their testing, they have mistakenly assumed their is less recoil on the guns because they were assuming they were pulling down on the guns. By taking away the need to compensate for recoil because they assume you are pulling down on the recoil, it's going to be far less realistic.
The bottom line is simple, if you want to go auto with any SMG and control the recoil, you have to work hard to keep the recoil under control. The only realistic way to simulate this is to make people move the mouse enough of a distance for it to be similarly difficult. Anyone should be able to control the recoil in real life, anyone can control the recoil in RO currently, why mess with an equation that has been proven so successful for 4 years now?
I know kids will cry if I bring CS into this but it's a perfect example here regarding the change of recoil. If you have an equation that is working sensationally i.e Counter Strike 1.6 and then you change it significantly in your next version of the game, you could suffer a huge loss in sales like what happened with Counter Strike Source.
Not listening to the core community and going in your own direction is a perilous decision and I know for certain that many others like myself would be frustrated if we saw a recoil system very similar to COD 5 for RO2 and the recoil from the RO2 video literally could have been skinned and mistaken for COD 5, it looked that similar. I don't need to go into just how bad COD 5 is and the number 1 reason in my opinion as to why it's so bad is the loss of recoil. Compared to COD 1 and 2, the recoil is significantly less. Even COD 1 to COD 2, the recoil again was reduced and again, they suffered as a result. To this day, most of the intelligent competitive community still agree that COD 1 was a better game than COD 2 because of the fun and skill of managing recoil was required to be a good player.
1. You could easily see there was no recoil in the video, if there was, Ramm has amazing skills because it barely twitched at all.
2. Ramm stated that the recoil has been reduced because of real testing.
3. When you made those videos, your gun is twitching around like a ***** even though you are keeping it in the centre.
4. Lastly, Yoshiro also verifies that their is less recoil, again, it's blatently obvious.
I have fired all sorts of guns, from a fully automatic (modded of course) SKS to a dodgy double barrel shotgun that I used to own that would fire both barrels at once half the time lol. I have fired a uzi before and if you are not pulling down on that thing, it pulls up.
I just fear that in their testing, they have mistakenly assumed their is less recoil on the guns because they were assuming they were pulling down on the guns. By taking away the need to compensate for recoil because they assume you are pulling down on the recoil, it's going to be far less realistic.
The bottom line is simple, if you want to go auto with any SMG and control the recoil, you have to work hard to keep the recoil under control. The only realistic way to simulate this is to make people move the mouse enough of a distance for it to be similarly difficult. Anyone should be able to control the recoil in real life, anyone can control the recoil in RO currently, why mess with an equation that has been proven so successful for 4 years now?
I know kids will cry if I bring CS into this but it's a perfect example here regarding the change of recoil. If you have an equation that is working sensationally i.e Counter Strike 1.6 and then you change it significantly in your next version of the game, you could suffer a huge loss in sales like what happened with Counter Strike Source.
Not listening to the core community and going in your own direction is a perilous decision and I know for certain that many others like myself would be frustrated if we saw a recoil system very similar to COD 5 for RO2 and the recoil from the RO2 video literally could have been skinned and mistaken for COD 5, it looked that similar. I don't need to go into just how bad COD 5 is and the number 1 reason in my opinion as to why it's so bad is the loss of recoil. Compared to COD 1 and 2, the recoil is significantly less. Even COD 1 to COD 2, the recoil again was reduced and again, they suffered as a result. To this day, most of the intelligent competitive community still agree that COD 1 was a better game than COD 2 because of the fun and skill of managing recoil was required to be a good player.
Once again you all don't listen. Recoil is there (yes it is less on some guns), and it NEEDS to be compensated for (just less on guns found to have less recoil...)
Tripwire has fired many many automatic weapons including many of those featured in Tripwire games (ranging from mg 42's to ak 47's). One of the key principles of Tripwires development has always been that anything in game should be as easy as it is to do in real life within our ability. If this means certain guns recoiled less, then so be it. As Ramm stated previously Tripwire has never "balanced" a gun for RO. They have always behaved in a fashion comparable to our experience with them.
Comparatively if you want a kick, go fire a grease gun, with it's more powerful round and slower fire rate it really throws a person off when trying to hold it on target. I've seen several people fire it besides myself (and I did well with it thank you), who ended up not compensating enough and/or over compensating and shooting the floor. I've also seen someone lose control of an mg42 and shoot the sky. So has Ramm (with video evidence and slomo ) SMG's that fire at a decently high rate and the smaller pistol rounds are by comparison much easier to control. At one point in the past I had a video of an SAS soldier one hand an mp 5k and fire it full auto while twisting his hand. He put rounds on target. On the other hand I have personally fired an mp 5 at range (over 150 meters, perhaps closer to 200. Some guys with mgs and rifles were using the target I was shooting at) and wildly missed after I did very well with it on a much closer target at a machine gun shoot in Arizona. It was very hard to compensate for spread and bullet drop on it at that range.
Addendum: I'm sure Alan has piles apon piles of date on how said rounds penetrate different materials as well. His list of research material scares me (but what scares me more is some of the material obtained within and how the hell he has it).
Tripwire has fired many many automatic weapons including many of those featured in Tripwire games (ranging from mg 42's to ak 47's). One of the key principles of Tripwires development has always been that anything in game should be as easy as it is to do in real life within our ability. If this means certain guns recoiled less, then so be it. As Ramm stated previously Tripwire has never "balanced" a gun for RO. They have always behaved in a fashion comparable to our experience with them.
Comparatively if you want a kick, go fire a grease gun, with it's more powerful round and slower fire rate it really throws a person off when trying to hold it on target. I've seen several people fire it besides myself (and I did well with it thank you), who ended up not compensating enough and/or over compensating and shooting the floor. I've also seen someone lose control of an mg42 and shoot the sky. So has Ramm (with video evidence and slomo
) SMG's that fire at a decently high rate and the smaller pistol rounds are by comparison much easier to control. At one point in the past I had a video of an SAS soldier one hand an mp 5k and fire it full auto while twisting his hand. He put rounds on target. On the other hand I have personally fired an mp 5 at range (over 150 meters, perhaps closer to 200. Some guys with mgs and rifles were using the target I was shooting at) and wildly missed after I did very well with it on a much closer target at a machine gun shoot in Arizona. It was very hard to compensate for spread and bullet drop on it at that range.Addendum: I'm sure Alan has piles apon piles of date on how said rounds penetrate different materials as well. His list of research material scares me (but what scares me more is some of the material obtained within and how the hell he has it).
Maybe you can hit the target out at 2-300 meters, but hitting the target is not the same thing as killing it. A pistol bullet fired from a pistol (the P38, for example) only has an effective range of 25 meters (maximum range 50 meters) before the accuracy and muzzle velocity possible from a pistol drops off. An SMG has a longer barrel, which allows for a higher muzzle velocity. This in turn gives the gun a longer range than a pistol, but it is still firing a relatively low powered and un-aerodynamic bullet. The MP-40 (which fires the 9x19 parabellum, the same cartridge as the P38) has an effective range of 100 meters, maximum range of 200 meters. After that, the bullet will simply be going too slowly to consistently kill the target, even if you hit it. A pistol bullet at 300 meters or more may very well just bounce off when it hits someone.
The MP-40 fires a bullet that weighs in the neighborhood of 9 grams at ~380 m/s. The Karabiner 98 Kurz fires a bullet that weighs around 12.5 grams at 760 m/s.
Given the equation for the muzzle energy of a bullet:
E=.5mv^2 (E for energy in joules, m for mass in kilograms and v for velocity in meters/second), we can see that the bullet coming out of an MP-40 has a kenetic energy of 649.8 joules, while the bullet coming out of a kar98k has a kinetic energy of 3610 joules, or more than five and a half times more energy. Plus, the rifle's bullet will retain that energy longer, as it is more aerodynamic than the SMG's bullet.
Steadying an SMG will not magically turn it into an assault rifle.
Everyone would agree that DH is better in almost every single way than RO? I smell fanboy.
Fighting will be able to occur beyond 200 meters due to the new zoom allowing players to see beyond 200 meters. The only limiting factor on bolt-action engagement distance in Ostfront was the ability to see the enemy player.
If bullet penetration is modelled as well as I hope it will be (realistically, that is), pistol caliber bullets will penetrate far less than rifle bullets will.
Yes, surely TWI will copy DH seeing how it is perfect.
RO is ABOUT realism.
The free-aim system that has been in RO since the betas (iirc) has prevented taping/painting a dot on the screen from being useful.
You don't need that much recoil at all to throw off where your bullet impacts downrange. At 100 meters, assuming a bullet that flies in an absolutely straight line, a deviation of 1 degree from your intended aim will result in the bullet impacting ~1.75 meters from your intended target. At 200 meters this becomes 3.5 meters. The gun doesn't need to shake all over the place to make it hard to hit a target at range.
Bullet drop is an issue, and it will be more so of an issue in ROHOS, where firefights will occur at longer ranges, due to the aforementioned zooming feature.
As it rightly should be. The MG is Ostfront isn't nearly as feared a weapon as it was IRL; it is just too easy to flank and to finicky to use. The new deployment system will help fix this.
Who ever said you were representative of the core community of RO?
Take a look at the RO forums. Most of the threads on these forums are about "is feature x realistic or not" or "feature x would be realistic, please implement it".
RO was born on realism. The community grew with people who loved realistic gaming. The main feature that differentiated RO from the dozens of other WW2 games on the market was its attention to realism. RO is about realism, and artificially balancing something that can easily be modeled realistically ingame is in direct conflict with the very core of what RO is striving to be. To do anything else would be an insult to massive amount of both hands on and literary research that has gone into RO over the years.
Unless putting in a realistic feature 100% breaks the gameplay (which lowered recoil will not) or makes the game 100 times more complicated to play (won't do that either), then it belongs in RO. TWI has neither the time nor, more importantly, the money, to put every last little tiny thing into ROHOS, but I sure hope they give it a try.
I'm sorry that you are disappointed by what you are seeing now, but remember, no one is going to hold you down and make you buy it on release day. And anyway, I'm sure the people who made DH will still be around to mod for ROHOS.
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Bodog,
I think you are kidding yourself with some of the actual in practice results and some of your mathematical results.
1. TW deliberately balanced many different types of guns in RO for balance reasons. From MG's having heaps of tracers to semi auto snipers having horrific accuracy.
2. Bullet Drop is basically non-existant for SMG's because of time in game where it will be applicable. The maps where it actually matters are almost always poor maps and rarely played so again, maths does not equal reality.
3. The launch of DH 3.0 was the biggest failure I have ever seen, server problems, terrible marketing and requirements for deletion of 2.0 for successful installation. I'm not a fanboy, I'm a businessman who can see a product which is successful and numbers do not lie. Check the numbers before you go blindly and wrongly say fanboy. DH is hugely popular even though Dday landings have been done over and over again.
4. TW have stated publically that they need to get the blend of realism and playability right because this, I repeat this was the biggest problem with the first game!
5. If you think a MG is underpowered in DH, then you have no grasp of how to play the game. I'm not sure if you play the game much or are a huge historical and gun smith mad person but let me just set you straight. A MG in the right hands is sniper accurate and almost stoppable only by a sniper, come into a decent server to grasp this. This one equation can stop people from wanting to play the game by itself. This equation now is going to change incredibly, INCREDIBLY. Compared to DH, the MG is going to be 10 times more powerful and this will drastically effect gameplay.
a) it will have massive bullet penetration because of the round
b) it will be far easier to deploy as well as being easier to maneuver
c) it will be far harder to spot because of little to no tracer rounds
d) It will be able to fire longer because the barrel overheating concept in DH has been balanced.
I fight to keep our server in our country popular and first hand see what a good MG will do to a server, it kills it. I in the interest of keeping our server populated will actively counter these MG's to try and stop them from killing the server. Seriously, watch a good MG and what they do to a server, players leave the server in droves. Not only do I look at the game from a business perspective, I look at it from a player number perspective and as an avid competitive gamer in many different types of first person shooters, I am one of the core competitive crowd that can see just how important balance is and how easily a game can be ruined if a developer doesn't pay careful attention to what is an INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF A GAME.
In summary, you clearly do not have a grasp of how to successfully run a business by examining what made it successful and what were its biggest problems. I'm glad that TW does because if they didn't they would listen to "realism at all costs minority" for RO. I'll state that again, realism minority in case you didn't get it the first time. I am very confident that the amount of buyers who bought the game didn't do it because it's a 100% realism based mod, they bought it because it sounded fun and wanted to give it a try. The people who still play the game now are definitely the "realism crowd" but the great majority of the 300k people who bought the game were almost certainly not from the hardcore realism crowd.
How many hardcore realism servers are still played in RO now? NONE!!!!! Thats right NONE.
This is the thing that frustrates me, you are trying to force realism down my throat the detriment of all other users to satisfy your lust for realism whereas I am trying to only satisfy the greater majority of potential buyer of RO2 for "relaxed realism" only and am still encouraging TW to have the hardcore realism mode as well.
I think you are kidding yourself with some of the actual in practice results and some of your mathematical results.
1. TW deliberately balanced many different types of guns in RO for balance reasons. From MG's having heaps of tracers to semi auto snipers having horrific accuracy.
2. Bullet Drop is basically non-existant for SMG's because of time in game where it will be applicable. The maps where it actually matters are almost always poor maps and rarely played so again, maths does not equal reality.
3. The launch of DH 3.0 was the biggest failure I have ever seen, server problems, terrible marketing and requirements for deletion of 2.0 for successful installation. I'm not a fanboy, I'm a businessman who can see a product which is successful and numbers do not lie. Check the numbers before you go blindly and wrongly say fanboy. DH is hugely popular even though Dday landings have been done over and over again.
4. TW have stated publically that they need to get the blend of realism and playability right because this, I repeat this was the biggest problem with the first game!
5. If you think a MG is underpowered in DH, then you have no grasp of how to play the game. I'm not sure if you play the game much or are a huge historical and gun smith mad person but let me just set you straight. A MG in the right hands is sniper accurate and almost stoppable only by a sniper, come into a decent server to grasp this. This one equation can stop people from wanting to play the game by itself. This equation now is going to change incredibly, INCREDIBLY. Compared to DH, the MG is going to be 10 times more powerful and this will drastically effect gameplay.
a) it will have massive bullet penetration because of the round
b) it will be far easier to deploy as well as being easier to maneuver
c) it will be far harder to spot because of little to no tracer rounds
d) It will be able to fire longer because the barrel overheating concept in DH has been balanced.
I fight to keep our server in our country popular and first hand see what a good MG will do to a server, it kills it. I in the interest of keeping our server populated will actively counter these MG's to try and stop them from killing the server. Seriously, watch a good MG and what they do to a server, players leave the server in droves. Not only do I look at the game from a business perspective, I look at it from a player number perspective and as an avid competitive gamer in many different types of first person shooters, I am one of the core competitive crowd that can see just how important balance is and how easily a game can be ruined if a developer doesn't pay careful attention to what is an INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF A GAME.
In summary, you clearly do not have a grasp of how to successfully run a business by examining what made it successful and what were its biggest problems. I'm glad that TW does because if they didn't they would listen to "realism at all costs minority" for RO. I'll state that again, realism minority in case you didn't get it the first time. I am very confident that the amount of buyers who bought the game didn't do it because it's a 100% realism based mod, they bought it because it sounded fun and wanted to give it a try. The people who still play the game now are definitely the "realism crowd" but the great majority of the 300k people who bought the game were almost certainly not from the hardcore realism crowd.
How many hardcore realism servers are still played in RO now? NONE!!!!! Thats right NONE.
This is the thing that frustrates me, you are trying to force realism down my throat the detriment of all other users to satisfy your lust for realism whereas I am trying to only satisfy the greater majority of potential buyer of RO2 for "relaxed realism" only and am still encouraging TW to have the hardcore realism mode as well.
You've been to the Wikieup machine gun shoot, awesome. I haven't been but seems like a something worth while It's only a couple hour drive from where I live.
I'll get one thing straight. Yes, DH has more numbers of players right now, but have you seen that community? It's almost as bad as CoDs for the most part.