Community Opinion: Berserker Overpowered?

[timur]

There is a very simple fix for the OP zerker and close to OP medic. Trade speed for quickness. Give the zerker and medic the speed boost for 6 seconds. Then normal speed for 30 seconds. Just anything to prevent the speed from being exploited into kiting. That will also allow the medic to quickly run to a player and heal him.




This is going to sound rude, and I don't mean it to be rude, but that is the problem. Superspeed that is on 100% of the time is the problem. It needs to be removed without granting any other bonuses. That is why I am against highly effective perked weapons for the medic. He is arguably already the most defensive perk and that has to be balanced by being one of the least offensive perks. Of course he isn't because he can equip more than effective non-perked weapons, but giving him a powerful perked weapon is just way way too much.



I view that as a player problem not a medic problem. 90% of players still stupidly move and dodge and sidestep and step in front of others and constantly shift their position to get the absolute best position for their shot and they don't give a damn about the rest of the team. They block grenades. They block other player's shots. They block views. And 90% of the time there is absolutely no reason to move. With no FF, players don't give a damn about the team or other player's positions. They want to move to be in front of every other player so they always have the first shot at all times. And if they are about to be overrun, who cares? The rest of the team simply fires at the player and the bullets and shot magically know which flesh to damage and which to ignore. And yes, they are always the first players to complain when their constant fidgeting prevents them from being healed.

I say let those players die. Good players learn good habits and practice good teamplay. /End rant about selfish players.

But honestly, I just really happy someone else agrees with me on the Magnetic Clot Grab

 

[outofrealman]

I'm not talking about solo mode. I don't care about solo mode.

Er yeah okay dude. Anything before the most recent patch is irrelevant. Gonna have to see a video of you soloing the better part of a 6-man wave with Commando (or Firebug, Demo etc) before I take any part of what you're saying seriously.

You do know if you are the last one zeds spawns with one-man health?

So after everyone die, what's the big difference between solo and surviving with 100 zeds left? Solo already give you what... 73? (I hope I remember that right) zeds on wave 10. How is it game breaking? If your team die with 200+ zeds left, well, that team dont deserve to win.

And rambo really have NOTHING to do with intended game play. It is USELESS to consider that kind of play if you want the balance between gameplay of 95% of the players. And it is easy to kit the bigs bakc to the team anytime you want if you deside to rambo. Especially on wide open maps.

And how much people here who say berserker is OP really can beat HoE with berserker? Even on solo? I know nutter and scary ghost probably can. But all of us know they are good players (top 10 or may be 5%), not adverage players (95%).

Just because in beta people start to meet players that are good enough, suddenly they know "OH! I dont know I can do this." and "OH! I didn't know you can do that!!" and freaks out. After the xbow nerf, sharpshooters on pub server suddenly cannot kill fleshpounds, and they see me use the M14 to kill a full health fleshpound and go "WTF?" Some people ask me why I can keep fleshpounds clam while axe his face to kill them. You really need to know 95% players out there is not good enough to even know how each zeds work. And clearly many people here dont even know zeds' health is depending on number of players STILL ALIVE, not number of players in the server.

Once you what the rules are and how the game works, you can become overpowered. One more quick example: ZOMG!!! I am the only one left and I am using chainsaw + katana!!! I cannot kill scrakes!!!
YES! You cannot kill scrakes. But you can kite them untill they are the last few zeds, then they will auto-die. End of story.

 

[CandleJack]

Drop it from 40% damage resist to 30%.

That's not set in stone, but it makes raged FPs seem like more of a threat, and makes you more conscious of your surroundings.

1014: 25%
1016: 40%
1017: 30%

Not quite sure how this would affect Berserker's playstyle, but surely zerkers shouldn't just shrug off a raged FP's double hit.

 

[nutterbutter]

@ potemkinhr

Doesn't matter how a team gets wiped. Best teamwork, worst teamwork. Doesn't matter. Zerker is almost always the last one standing.

The problem, and it has been mentioned before my post, after my post, and many times on the board before, that it doesn't make sense to nerf the zerker because it is OP for a handful of players. My point was that for a period of time, only a few players could kite 100+ specimens on hard. Then other players learned the techniques. Then for a while, only a few players could kite 100+ specimens on suicidal. Then other players learned the techniques. There is no reason not to think that the same things will happen for HoE. BTW, kiting isn't exploiting. I used exploit as a verb. Maybe a better sentence would have been "...dozen players have the skills to kite..."?

Only zerker and medic can go melee because of the speed. Even without the clot grab. The other classes just don't have the speed to create separation.

So you are telling me "So can every other class when it hits level 5 or 6. No, wait, even before wave !"? Really? So every support has an aa12 before wave 1? Or every commando has a SCAR before wave 1? Or demo with an m32? Or sharpie who prefers an m14 to an xbow?

I expect some type of limiation to the zerker. Having a perk that can fire multiple times per second, every second of the game, without ever pausing, and doing maximum damage with every attack isn't fair or realistic. Before someone replies with the rote answer "He has to get up close to attack", that is false. Zerkers can equip any weapon with their most powerful perked weapon and they do.


@ Wail

Exactly.


@Nanostrike

The only real problems with the zerker is the crazy speed that is always fully on and the nonstop perked weapon attack. Faster attack, permanent armor, damage resistances, and perked melee weapons all make sense.

One of the things I think you are overlooking is the zerker effectively has unlimited perked ammo. Sure the FP is susceptible to grenades but grenades are a limited resource. If a couple FPs show up after the grenade launchers or xbows are empty, those players are screwed. If a wave has 20 FPs spawn, as long as the zerker has room to kite, he can kill them all.


@ Undedd Jester

Funny you should mention that medics can't kite on HoE. I was in a game tonight on HoE. CandleJack joined in the middle of wave 9. I was watching Rhinestone (yes, the classic movie with Dolly Parton and Sylvester Stallone) and wasn't really paying attention to the game. I ended up over 200 meters away from the trader and barely made it to the trader, threw a few hundred to CandleJack, and had just enough time to click 'All ammo' before the trader closed. I was typing a message to CandleJack about why I wasn't able to give him much money and at least 2 sirens spawned on me. Two quick screams and I was dead. CandleJack kited the entire wave. Now, it was optimum conditions. I dropped an aa12, only 2 players, and it was MountainPass, the biggest map. I've seen similar kiting from medics before, so I wouldn't say they couldn't kite anymore, but they aren't nearly the same force as the zerdic before the rebalancing.

About the zerkers not having an inherent weakness, I agree completely.

I don't think support is slightly op. Sure they have very quick attacks and the aa12 will quickly fix mistakes, but more than a few times I've been 1 shot killed by an FP that I am automatically pumping shell after shell into and while I had 100% ammo and health. On a side note, I think Support, Commando, and Demo are relatively balanced. I think the one shot kill flamer MAC10 is a little too powerful and I think Sharpie is just about right with the exception of going a little too far by removing the reload speed bonus.

Zerker is also the only class that can run right through a group of specimens if the way out is on the other side of the room.


@ outofrealman

It may be 5% of players that can kite 100 specimens, but as I mentioned before, at one time it was 5% of the players that could kite a 100 specimens on hard. then it was only 5% of the players that could kite a 100 specimens on suicidal. Do you really think that the skills and techniques to kite a 100 specimens on HoE will stay with just 5% of the players?

"Any perk in skilled hands is a game breaker"? Are you kidding? I don't care how good a commando, demo, support, flamer, or sharpie is. They can't be game breakers because they will eventually run out of ammo. They will have to stop firing to reload and they don't have the speed to create time to reload.

As for removing the speed and still being a game breaker, are you kidding again? Speed is what allows the zerker to fight the enemies he wants when he wants. Speed allows the zerker to dodge multiple husk attacks. Speed allows the zerker to create time and space to heal. No ability to create separation means no ability to kite.


@ Deafmute

Exactly right.


@ Steeps

Yes, going rambo has nothing to do with the zerker being OP. However, the zerker being able to be the only class that can survive going rambo does.

 

[SMIFF]

So, I ask you two to record a vid of you playing an entire solo HOE game using the 6 player zed mutator. I guarantee it will take a fair bit of skill to do it even on easy maps like london or manor. Mountainpass doesn't count lol. I would especially love to see you doing it on bedlam, offices or hospitalhorrors. Seriously if its so easy and zerker is unstopable, this should be a cakewalk.

I died due to a foolish mistake on my part at the end of Wave 10 on solo HoE, West London.

I was a level 2 Berserker for the entire game. I'm not a pro Berserker. No other perk could get that far at level 2.

I could have beaten the wave if I was patient, but a misjudged Pipe Bomb placement ended the game.

Imagine if I was level 6.

 

[outofrealman]

It may be 5% of players that can kite 100 specimens, but as I mentioned before, at one time it was 5% of the players that could kite a 100 specimens on hard. then it was only 5% of the players that could kite a 100 specimens on suicidal. Do you really think that the skills and techniques to kite a 100 specimens on HoE will stay with just 5% of the players?

Then clearly you complain way way way too early.

"Any perk in skilled hands is a game breaker"? Are you kidding? I don't care how good a commando, demo, support, flamer, or sharpie is. They can't be game breakers because they will eventually run out of ammo. They will have to stop firing to reload and they don't have the speed to create time to reload.

What? each perk have their way to kite, some perk just being harder. Some perk just bust their way trough a group of zeds (firebug/support), then you have 32 zeds behind you, you can now use the way berserkers do to kite, you may need more time to create distance, but clots in front of gorefasts can block them from charging at you. Killing those clots/stalkers blocking the gorefasts or clawers is just a stupid move. On wide open maps, you are even easier to kite. Unless crawlers is close enough to keep using the leap attack, you can actually outrun them.

As for removing the speed and still being a game breaker, are you kidding again? Speed is what allows the zerker to fight the enemies he wants when he wants. Speed allows the zerker to dodge multiple husk attacks. Speed allows the zerker to create time and space to heal. No ability to create separation means no ability to kite.

Oh really? Have you even try to kite with other perks? Well, may be on farm or mountain pass it is very very hard kite (still possible), because it is very hard to prevent fleshpounds from raging. But in terms of kiting, scrakes isn't really a problem. And you in fact dont need any speed bonus to dodge husks attack. Best way to dodge fire ball is jump at the right time. No speed bonus can save you from 3+ husks attack, As they can predict where you will be when the fire ball hits.

And you are still using the mindset of balancing solo. When you nerf berserker, medic become the most popular last standing man. After you nerf medic, that would become support. This will be endless.

 

[Aze]

Really, the only specimen giving zerker fits right now is the scrake and that's more because of the dodgy head hit boxes than player skill. Still, once you get the first alt fire axe head shot in, the scrake is usually going to end up dead in the next few seconds. Even if you are unable to finish him off, you can always just stun him and retreat to a better location.

And on top of that, if you DO work in a team (2 Zerkers for example), if one lures the Scrake, the other one can attack the Scrake in the back. Attacking it in the back is so awesome, not only due to the double damage, but also due to stunning Scrakes so easily that way (due to the double damage). So while the Scrake actually is a little bit more annoying to take out solo (requiring the Axe), minor teamwork makes the Scrake a cakewalk as well.

 

[outofrealman]

I died due to a foolish mistake on my part at the end of Wave 10 on solo HoE, West London.

I was a level 2 Berserker for the entire game. I'm not a pro Berserker. No other perk could get that far at level 2.

I could have beaten the wave if I was patient, but a misjudged Pipe Bomb placement ended the game.

Imagine if I was level 6.

I see that important word again, LOL.

"No other perk could get that far at level 2." You cant be serious, really?

 

[SMIFF]

I see that important word again, LOL.

"No other perk could get that far at level 2." You cant be serious, really?

Do it.

Oh yeah, and why did you highlight "solo"? like that means anything substantial.

I'm going to refer you to a post that YOU made.

You do know if you are the last one zeds spawns with one-man health?

So after everyone die, what's the big difference between solo and surviving with 100 zeds left?

Interesting.

And how much people here who say berserker is OP really can beat HoE with berserker? Even on solo? I know nutter and scary ghost probably can. But all of us know they are good players (top 10 or may be 5%), not adverage players (95%).

I'm average, I could. With a level 2 Berserker.

 

[Euclix]

So even with the effectively halved fire power, the zerker can still 1 shot 7 of the 9 specimens, dispose of the fleshpound nearly as quickly, and stun lock scrakes. Add onto that, extra speed and resistance, bringing it up to +40% resistance and +30% speed. Sorry, I don't see why this was needed. The game, as it is right now, is no harder than it was back then for a skilled zerker. In fact, the extra bonuses have made it easier as zerker can take even more punishment while still able to dispose of the specimens nearly as quickly as before.

Being unable to kill "quickly" is not that big of a balancing factor. As mentioned above, the only specimens the zerker can't dispose of in 1 blow is the scrake and fleshpound. Well, they can stun lock scrakes so no big deal and the zerker can engage the fleshpound wherever he wants. If there is a team of zerkers, then can just chop him down with axe alt fire in a few seconds.

I'm glad you corrected me on some of the details but let me ask you this.

I remember playing the berserker before the patch and having a really hard time doing anything but kitting because it always seemed like I would take to much damage when trying to tank for a team. Now I feel like I can hold the front line pretty effectively.

If the berserker were put back in his place, in your opinion would his ability to tank be crippled again? Or was it ever crippled in the first place?

I dunno, the berserker is strong, and a slight nerf wouldn't bother me at all, but I don't really see how his power makes the game too easy. It's not like you are invincible. One or two mistakes (for us mortals) and you're dead. (Going in for a scrake kill when you shouldn't, getting stuck on a ledge or something, etc.) The sharpshooter did make the game too easy by just taking out all the big zeds in one hit no questions asked.

 

[rckrdude]

Do it.

Oh yeah, and why did you highlight "solo"? like that means anything substantial.

I'm going to refer you to a post that YOU made.



Interesting.



I'm average, I could. With a level 2 Berserker.

Solo makes a huge difference. Far fewer specimen numbers and less specimen health. Try soloing using the 6 player mutator on a map that isn't so kiting friendly like bedlam.

 

[potemkinhr]

@ potemkinhr

Doesn't matter how a team gets wiped. Best teamwork, worst teamwork. Doesn't matter. Zerker is almost always the last one standing.

The problem, and it has been mentioned before my post, after my post, and many times on the board before, that it doesn't make sense to nerf the zerker because it is OP for a handful of players. My point was that for a period of time, only a few players could kite 100+ specimens on hard. Then other players learned the techniques. Then for a while, only a few players could kite 100+ specimens on suicidal. Then other players learned the techniques. There is no reason not to think that the same things will happen for HoE. BTW, kiting isn't exploiting. I used exploit as a verb. Maybe a better sentence would have been "...dozen players have the skills to kite..."?
Well, the existing playerbase gets better over time, what did you expect? KF just doesn't have the constant flow of new blood, it gained a fair ammount of new players in the christmas sale (myself including) which WILL get better in time if they learn anything from gameplay.

Only zerker and medic can go melee because of the speed. Even without the clot grab. The other classes just don't have the speed to create separation.
You miss the point. Other classes just aren't meant to go melee, why do you think they have ranged bonuses and not melee ones?

So you are telling me "So can every other class when it hits level 5 or 6. No, wait, even before wave !"? Really? So every support has an aa12 before wave 1? Or every commando has a SCAR before wave 1? Or demo with an m32? Or sharpie who prefers an m14 to an xbow?
Oh come on, every single spawn weapon is far better for their classes than the chainsaw is for the berserker. I find myself just dropping it to the medic who wants to rambo around (he regains his speed bonus with the chainsaw, which I don't, and if I don't drop it to him he just buys it for himself and wastes a lot more cash than someone else might use), and I find myself either guarding his precious *** (he has constant speed with ANY weapon, unlike the zerker, has more armor, and has a inhuman heal) or holding the line so the zed's don't kill anyone.

I expect some type of limiation to the zerker. Having a perk that can fire multiple times per second, every second of the game, without ever pausing, and doing maximum damage with every attack isn't fair or realistic. Before someone replies with the rote answer "He has to get up close to attack", that is false. Zerkers can equip any weapon with their most powerful perked weapon and they do.
If we're going to the realistic train, why not give zerkers cleave? You know, so you could actually decapitate several weaker zeds with an wide axe swing, that sounds more realistic.
As for your idea of "reloading", probably the only somewhat realistic idea would be introducing fatigue on swings, that after a few swings you would have to recuperate for a moment before attacking again.


@ Wail

Exactly.


@Nanostrike

The only real problems with the zerker is the crazy speed that is always fully on and the nonstop perked weapon attack. Faster attack, permanent armor, damage resistances, and perked melee weapons all make sense.
You're right. Why give the player DR? it's just alowing a bigger margin of error. Why put another invisible layer of protection besite the armor? Running speed sounds a lot more realistic to me. Like a fast sprinter with only a lightweight katana, unencumbered by heavy weapons. That sounds right.

One of the things I think you are overlooking is the zerker effectively has unlimited perked ammo. Sure the FP is susceptible to grenades but grenades are a limited resource. If a couple FPs show up after the grenade launchers or xbows are empty, those players are screwed. If a wave has 20 FPs spawn, as long as the zerker has room to kite, he can kill them all.
Realistically speaking, the only thing in which you could implement some sort of "ammo" is the chainsaw. If they increased the movement speed with it and introduced fuel, it would see far more action but wouldn't be used constantly because of fuel consumption, but for stronger zeds primarily or when holding the line in a narrow hallway.

@ Undedd Jester

Funny you should mention that medics can't kite on HoE. I was in a game tonight on HoE. CandleJack joined in the middle of wave 9. I was watching Rhinestone (yes, the classic movie with Dolly Parton and Sylvester Stallone) and wasn't really paying attention to the game. I ended up over 200 meters away from the trader and barely made it to the trader, threw a few hundred to CandleJack, and had just enough time to click 'All ammo' before the trader closed. I was typing a message to CandleJack about why I wasn't able to give him much money and at least 2 sirens spawned on me. Two quick screams and I was dead. CandleJack kited the entire wave. Now, it was optimum conditions. I dropped an aa12, only 2 players, and it was MountainPass, the biggest map. I've seen similar kiting from medics before, so I wouldn't say they couldn't kite anymore, but they aren't nearly the same force as the zerdic before the rebalancing.

About the zerkers not having an inherent weakness, I agree completely.

I don't think support is slightly op. Sure they have very quick attacks and the aa12 will quickly fix mistakes, but more than a few times I've been 1 shot killed by an FP that I am automatically pumping shell after shell into and while I had 100% ammo and health. On a side note, I think Support, Commando, and Demo are relatively balanced. I think the one shot kill flamer MAC10 is a little too powerful and I think Sharpie is just about right with the exception of going a little too far by removing the reload speed bonus.

Zerker is also the only class that can run right through a group of specimens if the way out is on the other side of the room.
Tactical repositioning (running past them and placing yourself in a more preferable spot) sound way better than being surrounded and killed to me.

@ outofrealman

It may be 5% of players that can kite 100 specimens, but as I mentioned before, at one time it was 5% of the players that could kite a 100 specimens on hard. then it was only 5% of the players that could kite a 100 specimens on suicidal. Do you really think that the skills and techniques to kite a 100 specimens on HoE will stay with just 5% of the players?
Read first reply.

"Any perk in skilled hands is a game breaker"? Are you kidding? I don't care how good a commando, demo, support, flamer, or sharpie is. They can't be game breakers because they will eventually run out of ammo. They will have to stop firing to reload and they don't have the speed to create time to reload.
Read the bottom reply.

As for removing the speed and still being a game breaker, are you kidding again? Speed is what allows the zerker to fight the enemies he wants when he wants. Speed allows the zerker to dodge multiple husk attacks. Speed allows the zerker to create time and space to heal. No ability to create separation means no ability to kite.
Great. In the beginning of your post you approve of kiting as an legitimate tactic as a retreating move, and now you want it removed when it doesn't suit you? Often zerkers are the only ones that use the terrain and map layout to their advantage, other just bunker up and sit in place wheres the zerker must use cover when dealing with zeds to lay ambushes and shield himself.

@ Deafmute

Exactly right.


@ Steeps

Yes, going rambo has nothing to do with the zerker being OP. However, the zerker being able to be the only class that can survive going rambo does.
Medic's got even more survivability if we look at it pure logic. He CAN run full speed even with ranged weapons, regaining constant distance between him and the zeds, and when he's out of ammo can switch to melee weapons and continue running and meleeing as if nothing happened.

Reply in green.

 

[SMIFF]

Solo makes a huge difference. Far fewer specimen numbers and less specimen health. Try soloing using the 6 player mutator on a map that isn't so kiting friendly like bedlam.

If you're the last guy alive, Specimens spawn with 1 man health.

Only difference is more Specimens, doesn't mean it's harder, just that it'll take longer.

 

[scary ghost]

Solo makes a huge difference. Far fewer specimen numbers and less specimen health. Try soloing using the 6 player mutator on a map that isn't so kiting friendly like bedlam.

The 6 player mutator only increases the number of specimens. It doesn't give them 6 man worth of hp or attack strength.

I'm glad you corrected me on some of the details but let me ask you this.

I remember playing the berserker before the patch and having a really hard time doing anything but kitting because it always seemed like I would take to much damage when trying to tank for a team. Now I feel like I can hold the front line pretty effectively.

If the berserker were put back in his place, in your opinion would his ability to tank be crippled again? Or was it ever crippled in the first place?

I dunno, the berserker is strong, and a slight nerf wouldn't bother me at all, but I don't really see how his power makes the game too easy. It's not like you are invincible. One or two mistakes (for us mortals) and you're dead. (Going in for a scrake kill when you shouldn't, getting stuck on a ledge or something, etc.) The sharpshooter did make the game too easy by just taking out all the big zeds in one hit no questions asked.

Back then, zerker wasn't that great of a tank on his own, a tanking zerker needed a medic to keep him healthy. The bigger problem though, was the chainsaw was such a pitiful weapon with a 0.25x head shot multiplier. Why trade your speed for a weapon that can't even 1 hit kill a clot? The last wave of the beta addressed this with a beefed up chainsaw that instantly melted crawlers, stalkers, and clots, and quickly dispatched of gorefasts and bloats. Then the chainsaw's backstab code was fixed thus giving us the two hit kill chainsaw. If the chainsaw were returned to it's former glory of wave 7 of the beta patch, then +25% resistance is perfectly find for tanking since the zerker can hit back.

 

[Nanostrike]

Nano I'm not being a dick here, last thing I want is another rage thread, but I just don't buy any of your arguements dude.

(1) Firstly this is not a Zerker hate thread. Its already known that I feel the Berserker is overpowered, I wanted a simple poll to assess the actual opinion of the community of the issue rather than spend pages after pages debating and arguing.

I know you're not being a dick. And that this isn't intended to be a hate thread. I just think that it'll devolve into one soon. It almost always does. I was just gonna say my piece and leave, but since the thread hasn't gone downhill yet, you deserve a longer reply and some explanation on what I was trying to say.

(2) This idea of what will happen to the Berserker if he is nerfed is where your and my opinion differs so greatly.
The opinon he would be a joke if nerfed just simply isn't the case. I have said time and time again the Berserkers stats were fine as they before, and I am not alone in that opinion. He was never a joke class, there have been and still are people that could play him very well indeed with the old stats.

The thing was he was always a highly skilled class due to the danger of his role, but just like the Firebug, people who knew what they were doing were very effective with him and a valuable asset to the team. The Beta made the perk alot easier for people who weren't good enough to do it before, but in so doing people who had a reasonable degree of ability with the perk are suddenly unstoppable.

The reason this is such a problem is as time goes by more and more people are gonna get to this kind of level.

I think the changes made him from a perk that could be "Almost" as good as the rest of the superweapon-toting teammates IF you played well to one that's on-par with the rest of the team for once. I'm not saying he was crippled before, but it was a hell of a lot less fun. Having almost zero margin for error and playing largely pub games is frustrating, to say the least.

Yes, in 6-player friends/clan-only matches, the pre-patch Zerker was "Okay" (Albeit boring, as you really didn't do much but sit back until there was trouble), but in a public game, the Zerker was seriously lacking. Trading the ability to use massively powerful weapons (Remember, this was back when the SS was 1-shotting FPs and the M14 EBR was a death machine!) for a small damage reduction, a melee-only speed boost, and some melee weapon boosts was (And still is, really) a rough deal.

Now that the Zerker can actually take some damage, a lag spike, idiot teammate, or surprise BS Zed spawn isn't basically an insta-gib. And it was usually an instant death on Suicidal before. The measly 20% or so damage resistance didn't cut it one bit when stuff started hitting the fan.

The speed may be the issue, but the damage reduction is currently perfect in my eyes. If the Zerker is ever nerfed, so long as they don't touch two things, I'll be fine:

-The damage reduction. Makes the perk FUN.
-The Katana's autofire. Leave it in! Taking it out was like the freaking holocaust on my mouse. Spamclicking is NOT fun.

(3) So yes, rambo kiting is an issue... and the 2 culprit perks are the Medic and the Berserker. So the arguement the Berserker isn't the problem is just silly.

The difference is a Medic cannot solo HoE anymore even if he is kiting. There are things in place that will almost certainly stop him clutching the round. Berserkers on the other hand can do it reliably time after time after time. No other perk can so reliably clutch a round as the Berserker.

I'll give you this one, actually. The Axe trick for FPs, though very hard to pull off consistantly, pretty much neutralizes the FP as the "No one can solo HoE!" specimen. This may need addressed, but I think through a way BESIDES nerfing the Zerker (IMO, increase the Fire Axe's damage JUST enough to rage an FP, increasing the cost a bit to compensate). If FPs weren't able to be axe-kited by Zerkers, most HoE kiting nonsense wouldn't even be an issue.

That said...skilled MEDICS are definitely able to do "Just under" the rage threshold of damage to an FP too and can kite them to death that way. It just takes a LOT longer. Basically any class can do it if they know how. It's just that medics/Zerkers can move away quickest and that can withstand an unlucky hit or two.

(4) You also seem to miss the point that the Sharpshooter and Demoman are classes designed to kill Fleshpounds, its their role. Their weaknesses are that killing trash ZEDs creates alot of problems for them due to other limitations to the perks (such as reload time, headshot requirement, blast radius, limited ammuniton, expense). Commados and Firebugs are the opposite.

You put high skill with any other perk and you may well have a very effective player, but he will have certain formations and situations that he will struggle against. However you couple high skill with the Berserkers current stats in a map with a reasonable amount of room to move and you have something that is truly devastating. As is he has no inherant weakness.

Honestly I really struggle to understand how anyone can argue that the Berserker is balanced when he is the only player on the field that can take on any number of specimens alone time after time after time.

Like I admitted, the FP thing is a problem. But beyond that, I don't see a problem with Zerkers being able to take down everything but them. Afterall, most other classes can do the same thing. FPs are the "Kite-catchers" who are supposed to be THE reason you can't solo waves. But right now they aren't. This needs to be addressed.

And though it's not as ridiculously crippling as before, Sirens/Husks are still the Zerker's weaknesses, as they can almost always get a hit off (Those SWEET corner ambushes on them being an exception!) and will wear down the Zerker. He doesn't heal any faster than anyone else, and if you're alone and/or your teammates are occupied, you can easily be worn down by that.

I get the point about kiting. I really do. And I understand the frustration about it. But pointing the finger squarely at Berserker is wrong and I worry that it could end up like the crippling over-nerfing that the M-14 got. There are a lot of factors allowing players to kite. Map design, flawed FP rage mechanics (Which I think is more of the issue here, not the Zerker/Axe itself), poor enemy pathfinding, ect. Yeah, fast movespeed and being able to hit for pretty much the max damage without causing a rage doesn't help the situation, but it's not the sole reason for it. Not by a long shot.

 

[Deafmute]

What? each perk have their way to kite, some perk just being harder. Some perk just bust their way trough a group of zeds (firebug/support), then you have 32 zeds behind you, you can now use the way berserkers do to kite, you may need more time to create distance, but clots in front of gorefasts can block them from charging at you. Killing those clots/stalkers blocking the gorefasts or clawers is just a stupid move. On wide open maps, you are even easier to kite. Unless crawlers is close enough to keep using the leap attack, you can actually outrun them.

Ugh. No they really, really don't. In earlier waves, sure; I've finished the tail end of early waves before as Commando. Can any of the perks you're mentioning solo the better part of wave 9? Wave 10? No. No they can't. They will run out of ammo, they will get caught reloading, they can't outrun Fleshpounds. Whether or not a team who wipes early "deserves" to win doesn't mean anything; the point is that none of these perks you're trying to pass off as game-breaking can solo late-game waves.

Again, I'm not saying Zerker is overpowered, but jesus man. Don't make retarded arguments just because you disagree with what's being said.

 

[Undedd Jester]

Some good arguements across the board for either side to be fair. I won't site them all or I'll be here all day. Have to admit I have been strong arming my point of view to the point its a little OTT.

I think my point lies in the fact it might be hard for the Berserker to kite everything and kill it all single handed, but its definately possible and alot easier than surviving it as any other perk. Plus it isn't really a rare ability, I've seen a fair number of people I've never heard of before able to do it.

Will admit I have come round to think the Medic vs. Fleshpound is an issue. I still think against Scrakes the Medic is stuffed, but by saying that I'm kind of ignoring the point



Although it kinda got lost in that big rage thread it still seems to me the optimum compromise is: -

- Fix the Fleshpound rage mechanics so that unsuccessful swings do not reset the rage timer, and losing line of sight merely pauses his rage timer instead of resetting it.
- Further make it so the Fleshpound rages continuously at a certain point of health, say 33%?
- Make the Zerker no faster than the Medic, whether the Medic is 25% speed on HoE or 20%. Even for berserker fans 30% you have to admit is a little ridiculous

I feel this should appropriately bring kite clutching down a peg as it simply won't work, so working together to keep the team alive in later waves becomes the focus of the game. Would everyone agree with this change?

 

[outofrealman]

If you're the last guy alive, Specimens spawn with 1 man health.

Only difference is more Specimens, doesn't mean it's harder, just that it'll take longer.

Solo is easy mainly because you self heal 50 instead of 20. And do medic included in "any other perks"? Medic also have speed bonus man... if kiting as 2lv berserker is "easy" for you, and still you are "adverage" player... no body is good players...

And, yes. I can solo with low level perk on HoE, because... that's solo...

My sharpshooter in beta is 3lv, too bad I'm not 2lv... but I managed to get to patty (7waves). May be I need one more shots on scrakes and fleshpounds if I'm 2lv? However note that players on HoE "should be" 5-6lv.

Like I said, berserker just being the easiest perk to kite and solo, or rambo, or whatever you name it. This doesn't mean other perks are impossible to kite, impossible to solo while the team is dead.

 

[ShyMiningStar]

 

[outofrealman]

Ugh. No they really, really don't. In earlier waves, sure; I've finished the tail end of early waves before as Commando. Can any of the perks you're mentioning solo the better part of wave 9? Wave 10? No. No they can't. They will run out of ammo, they will get caught reloading, they can't outrun Fleshpounds. Whether or not a team who wipes early "deserves" to win doesn't mean anything; the point is that none of these perks you're trying to pass off as game-breaking can solo late-game waves.

Again, I'm not saying Zerker is overpowered, but jesus man. Don't make retarded arguments just because you disagree with what's being said.

If the team left around 100 zeds for the last man standing, it really dont have "that much" difference to solo mode wave 10. Solo wave 10 gives you 72-75 zeds (forget the exact number). And if there's 200+ zeds, still possible, but required a LOT of luck (and something's really wrong with the team...) As armour and ammo boxes will spawn over time, and weapons on the ground can also be used.

Like I said before, if you only consider solo, or rambo, berserker is really really waaaayyy better than otehr perks. But for the sake of team play, berserker dont need a nerf.