Will there be a suppression bonus?

[Baine]

It definately needs more suppression. I had it more than once now, that people, despite being shot at from me, just pop up with their PPSH and nail me in a single burst.
It is even more ridiculous that i get suppressed faster than them. Guy turns out in the doorway that i cover, i start shooting, he starts shooting, my aim completely ****s up due to suppression while he nails me in a matter of seconds.

 

[Zacho]

"The primary intended effect of suppressive fire is psychological. Rather than directly trying to kill enemy soldiers, it makes the enemy soldiers feel unable to safely perform any actions other than seeking cover. Colloquially, this goal is expressed as "it makes them keep their heads down" or "it keeps them pinned down". However, depending on factors including the type of ammunition and the target's protection, suppressive fire may cause casualties and/or damage to enemy equipment."

So no, when a MG is told to 'suppress' the enemy. He does not hold back till he sees them, he shoots at where he thinks the enemy are or could be. That does not mean he shoots fast, just that he keeps the bursts of fire coming even if he cant see the enemy.

 

[Spindle]

"The primary intended effect of suppressive fire is psychological. Rather than directly trying to kill enemy soldiers, it makes the enemy soldiers feel unable to safely perform any actions other than seeking cover. Colloquially, this goal is expressed as "it makes them keep their heads down" or "it keeps them pinned down". However, depending on factors including the type of ammunition and the target's protection, suppressive fire may cause casualties and/or damage to enemy equipment."

So no, when a MG is told to 'suppress' the enemy. He does not hold back till he sees them, he shoots at where he thinks the enemy are or could be. That does not mean he shoots fast, just that he keeps the bursts of fire coming even if he cant see the enemy.

Thank you for your understanding

 

[pepihoh]

"The primary intended effect of suppressive fire is psychological. Rather than directly trying to kill enemy soldiers, it makes the enemy soldiers feel unable to safely perform any actions other than seeking cover. Colloquially, this goal is expressed as "it makes them keep their heads down" or "it keeps them pinned down". However, depending on factors including the type of ammunition and the target's protection, suppressive fire may cause casualties and/or damage to enemy equipment."

So no, when a MG is told to 'suppress' the enemy. He does not hold back till he sees them, he shoots at where he thinks the enemy are or could be. That does not mean he shoots fast, just that he keeps the bursts of fire coming even if he cant see the enemy.

Completely agree with you, sigh, I just hope that mods will make it right.

 

[Josef Nader]

"The primary intended effect of suppressive fire is psychological. Rather than directly trying to kill enemy soldiers, it makes the enemy soldiers feel unable to safely perform any actions other than seeking cover. Colloquially, this goal is expressed as "it makes them keep their heads down" or "it keeps them pinned down". However, depending on factors including the type of ammunition and the target's protection, suppressive fire may cause casualties and/or damage to enemy equipment."

So no, when a MG is told to 'suppress' the enemy. He does not hold back till he sees them, he shoots at where he thinks the enemy are or could be. That does not mean he shoots fast, just that he keeps the bursts of fire coming even if he cant see the enemy.

Source please.

Second, scroll back a few pages. I explain quite clearly why volume of fire suppression is not only impractical for LMGs, but impossible. The MG34 has a 50 round drum when it's in an LMG role (it becomes an MMG when it takes a belt. You need a second man to feed the belt, and it stops being as man-portable and quick to set up when you start involving belts). It fires 800 rounds a minute. (50 rounds / 800 rounds per minute) x 60 seconds = 3.75 seconds of sustained fire before you have to reload. Explain to me how you're supposed to suppress someone like an MMG if you have to stop and reload every 4 seconds? There's a reason sustained fire MGs require crews, a dedicated guy there feeding belts into the gun, someone actually shooting it, and a spotter to tell whether or not the bullets are hitting their mark.

You cannot suppress through volume of fire with an LMG in real life. It is actually impossible to do. You can't volume of fire suppress with a Sten, BAR, DP-28, Type 99, or MG34 drum-mag. You'd have to reload every couple of seconds, giving the enemy ample time to fight back.

The advantage the LMG gives over regular riflemen is that you can shoot 6-7 rounds in the time it takes for them to shoot one with alarming accuracy as long as you control your fire. If a half dozen bullets zip past your head every time you try and peek out of cover, you're going to be pretty psycologically convinced that staying in cover is the best idea. In fact, soldiers are trained to fight back while the MG is firing at someone else. You know where the gunner is aiming, where he's focusing, and you can return fire for a few seconds until he swings around to you. The scariest part is when he's NOT shooting, because you don't know where he's aiming, what he's looking at, or what he's doing. He could be waiting for you to stick your head out and check, so you're dealing with a real psycological mind**** when facing off with a smart MG'er.

 

[RojaNNation]

Source please.

Second, scroll back a few pages. I explain quite clearly why volume of fire suppression is not only impractical for LMGs, but impossible. The MG34 has a 50 round drum when it's in an LMG role (it becomes an MMG when it takes a belt. You need a second man to feed the belt, and it stops being as man-portable and quick to set up when you start involving belts). It fires 800 rounds a minute. (50 rounds / 800 rounds per minute) x 60 seconds = 3.75 seconds of sustained fire before you have to reload. Explain to me how you're supposed to suppress someone like an MMG if you have to stop and reload every 4 seconds? There's a reason sustained fire MGs require crews, a dedicated guy there feeding belts into the gun, someone actually shooting it, and a spotter to tell whether or not the bullets are hitting their mark.

You cannot suppress through volume of fire with an LMG in real life. It is actually impossible to do. You can't volume of fire suppress with a Sten, BAR, DP-28, Type 99, or MG34 drum-mag. You'd have to reload every couple of seconds, giving the enemy ample time to fight back.

The advantage the LMG gives over regular riflemen is that you can shoot 6-7 rounds in the time it takes for them to shoot one with alarming accuracy as long as you control your fire. If a half dozen bullets zip past your head every time you try and peek out of cover, you're going to be pretty psycologically convinced that staying in cover is the best idea. In fact, soldiers are trained to fight back while the MG is firing at someone else. You know where the gunner is aiming, where he's focusing, and you can return fire for a few seconds until he swings around to you. The scariest part is when he's NOT shooting, because you don't know where he's aiming, what he's looking at, or what he's doing. He could be waiting for you to stick your head out and check, so you're dealing with a real psycological mind**** when facing off with a smart MG'er.

Although I stated I agree with you before, I do find myself supressing some targeted areas with lots of enemies holed up, but this is only because I have a 250 round belt to do so. It would be a helluva lot easier to do this without the bloody recoil as well, it's still horrible even at level 50.

 

[Josef Nader]

Although I stated I agree with you before, I do find myself supressing some targeted areas with lots of enemies holed up, but this is only because I have a 250 round belt to do so. It would be a helluva lot easier to do this without the bloody recoil as well, it's still horrible even at level 50.

If you run into a situation like that, look around for an MMG. It has the huge belt and absolutely no recoil. THAT'S what you use to suppress a lot of people at once using volume of fire. It's accurate, blazing fast, and incredibly deadly.

Not a big fan of the 250 round belt unlock. Belts are unwieldy, easy to get tangled up, and cause jams if they aren't fed into the gun carefully. Being able to run around with a belt flapping around out of the gun like Rambo is just silly. Plus, as I said, it stops being an LMG when you get a belt involved.

 

[RojaNNation]

If you run into a situation like that, look around for an MMG. It has the huge belt and absolutely no recoil. THAT'S what you use to suppress a lot of people at once using volume of fire. It's accurate, blazing fast, and incredibly deadly.

Not a big fan of the 250 round belt unlock. Belts are unwieldy, easy to get tangled up, and cause jams if they aren't fed into the gun carefully. Being able to run around with a belt flapping around out of the gun like Rambo is just silly. Plus, as I said, it stops being an LMG when you get a belt involved.

Well, the situations I were talking about were rare and the only reason I end up doing it is because I know one of my teammates is going to flank and go in for the kill. I always use MMG's when I can because they are truly amazing killing/suppression tools.

 

[Spindle]

If you run into a situation like that, look around for an MMG. It has the huge belt and absolutely no recoil. THAT'S what you use to suppress a lot of people at once using volume of fire. It's accurate, blazing fast, and incredibly deadly.

Not a big fan of the 250 round belt unlock. Belts are unwieldy, easy to get tangled up, and cause jams if they aren't fed into the gun carefully. Being able to run around with a belt flapping around out of the gun like Rambo is just silly. Plus, as I said, it stops being an LMG when you get a belt involved.

Well there are thousands of Mbk 42(h)s and AVTs. So a belt is "realistic" in ro

Can't wait for the mg 42 imo, I hope they do the sound alright.

 

[pepihoh]

Source please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_fire[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_fire[/URL]

The primary intended effect of suppressive fire is psychological. Rather than directly trying to kill enemy soldiers, it makes the enemy soldiers feel unable to safely perform any actions other than seeking cover. Colloquially, this goal is expressed as "it makes them keep their heads down" or "it keeps them pinned down".

.

 

[Holy.Death]

For me a suppression bonus is already in the game - my vision goes grayish and blur so it's harder for me to focus on my target (since everything is gray and blurred) which in turn makes my aim much worse at long range engagements.

 

[pepihoh]

For me a suppression bonus is already in the game - my vision goes grayish and blur so it's harder for me to focus on my target (since everything is gray and blurred) which in turn makes my aim much worse at long range engagements.

A gray screen? Really? OH blast, now I cant see what color is that flower over there...The gray screen is just annoying, and it does not hinder you in aiming whatsoever. I would take the blur effect from RO1 any day.

 

[Holy.Death]

pepihoh - It's harder FOR ME (I am speaking for myself here) to see the enemy when everything looks the same. It is always easier to spot things when they are in different colour. It does hinder my aiming, because it interact with my perception which is necessary to aim well enough to kill.

 

[Manbearpig]

It would make being the MG class so much more fun to work with. Are they going to add it?

Adding points only gets people to abuse the point system. THey can improve the MG, but implementing complicated supression bonus points would be a huge waste of effort and resources on TWI's part. A better idea would be to make supression more effective by adding some sort of sway or generally worsening the greyout effect. It should interfere more with aim.

PLz move along, nothing to see here.

 

[Josef Nader]

Notenoughheretoquote

You're really confused if you think that "not directly trying to kill the enemy" and "shoot to miss" are the same things. If he's in your sights, you kill him. Scaring him does nothing. Killing him right in front of his buddies scares the living crap out of his buddies, making them unwilling to enter your sector of fire. Spraying rounds at a wall just convinces them you're incompetent and makes it harder to spot the rifleman creeping out from his hidey hole while prone trying to line you up.

Besides, you ignored the rest of my post. I don't write that stuff up for my health. Go read it.

A gray screen? Really? OH blast, now I cant see what color is that flower over there...The gray screen is just annoying, and it does not hinder you in aiming whatsoever. I would take the blur effect from RO1 any day.

Again, you must not have been under fire from an MG yet. If he's MISSING you (because he's not controlling his fire like a 'tard), then yeah, your screen just goes grey. If he's -almost- hitting you, as in controlling his fire and aiming his shots, your gun jumps like your guy had a convulsion every time the bullet passes you, making it hard to aim.

If he's -trying- to kill you, there's -no way' you're fighting back. If he's not actively shooting at you, nothing would realistically prevent you from shooting back. The fear of getting killed is up to the player. "Do I risk coming out and trying to shoot at someone who might be sitting there with my head in his ironsights, or do I try to figure out something else to do."

We don't need MG's to cause seizures and blind the player to balance them. They -need- to be challenging to use, otherwise they'd just wipe the entire enemy team. Being a machine gunner in WWII was a bloody dangerous job. Everyone in the rifle company was trained to use the machine gun, because the gunner was the guy that got shot at first. People -hated- enemy machine gunners, for good reason.

It's not an easy class, but it's certainly not underpowered and there's nothing wrong with the guns or the suppression effects.

 

[Gaizokubanou]

"The primary intended effect of suppressive fire is psychological. Rather than directly trying to kill enemy soldiers, it makes the enemy soldiers feel unable to safely perform any actions other than seeking cover. Colloquially, this goal is expressed as "it makes them keep their heads down" or "it keeps them pinned down". However, depending on factors including the type of ammunition and the target's protection, suppressive fire may cause casualties and/or damage to enemy equipment."

So no, when a MG is told to 'suppress' the enemy. He does not hold back till he sees them, he shoots at where he thinks the enemy are or could be. That does not mean he shoots fast, just that he keeps the bursts of fire coming even if he cant see the enemy.

The psychological aspect is derived from great possibility of physical damage.

Basically, because of the rate of fire and accuracy of the MG, MGs are capable of out shooting all other guns, which causes the guys on the receiving end of the MG fire to stay down and not to challenge the MG fire because the odds are on the MG's side.

If anything, MGs might need some recoil reduction to make longer burst more viable at longer range to achieve superior firepower in range. But definitely not some chemical rounds that induces muscle spasm.

 

[Josef Nader]

Admittedly, recoil reduction would make LMGs easier to use, but that would also mean more competition for my slot in the server.

And again, guys. I know that the vast majority of RO players just love the German side, but try the DP before you start making the MG34 easier. The MG34 is a -monster- in it's own right, and the big advantage the DP has over it is the lower RoF a.k.a. more manageable recoil. If the MG-34 suddenly got as manageable as the DP, PLUS it gets 75/250 round drums/belts, then the poor little DP's gonna get left in the dust.

D:

 

[Jippofin]

Plus, as I said, it stops being an LMG when you get a belt involved.

No it doesn't. Machinegun fires ammunition from a belt, that is the definition of the word in a few languages. LMG's use belted ammunition.

LMG=can be operated by a single person. (has no heavy mounts etc..
MMG=requires crew to operate (to carry the tripod, gun, cooling liquid, etc...)
HMG=8-20mm automatic fire weapon that requires a crew to operate

Supressive fire on the other hand is a single round every one to two seconds on the enemy's hideout. It doesn't need a huge volume of fire from an automatic weapon but continuos accurate fire. Point is to keep the enemy down and unable to fight back for certain (short) time to let your mates do something during that time.

 

[Josef Nader]

No it doesn't. Machinegun fires ammunition from a belt, that is the definition of the word in a few languages. LMG's use belted ammunition.

The B.A.R., Bren, Type 99, DP-28, Brenda 30, and a handful of others that escape my immediate recollection would disagree with that.

In fact, the German LMG's were unique, as they were more or less the first folks to come up with the idea of a general purpose machine gun that could be used for anything from squad LMGs to support MMGs to coaxial guns on tanks to hull guns on aircraft. The MG34 is the odd one out that uses a belt here.

Supressive fire on the other hand is a single round every one to two seconds on the enemy's hideout.

Again, I'm still not understanding why you'd want to expend your limited ammunition before reloading shooting at walls and dirt. If you see -motion-, open up at it. It doesn't have to be a clear target. Maybe that's where I've been making the mistake in my explanations. You don't have to see a big obvious guy with a "kill me" sign on his head, but if you see a rifle sticking out from around a corner, yeah, you shoot at that to try and penetrate his cover and let him know that he's not as sneaky as he thinks he is. He'll think twice about popping out to shoot you.

However, you -stop- after that. Don't waste ammo just shooting at the wall. You've made your point, he knows you see him, keep an eye on that spot and go back to hunting for targets. Don't zero in on the first sign of life and pump all your bullets into it. Someone will pop out as soon as you stop to reload and kill you.

You want people to know there's an MG on the battlefield, but not where or what he's doing. You let them know "HEY, I SEE YOU" and then you wait for them to try something. You don't sit there and keep shooting so that the guy you -aren't- shooting at can identify your muzzle flash and kill you.

He's suppressed perfectly if you do it right. He can't peek out to try and see you, because you'll kill him. He certainly can't try to cross the area, because you'll kill him. If he tries to fight back, you'll kill him. He's well and truly suppressed, and without some help from his squadmates, a smoke grenade, and maybe an artillery barrage, there's no way he's getting through your line of fire, and he knows it. He's either going to go back the way he came and try and get around you or try to coordinate a way to root you out of your hidey hole.

Other than those two points the rest of the post is spot on.

 

[RojaNNation]

The B.A.R., Bren, Type 99, DP-28, Brenda 30, and a handful of others that escape my immediate recollection would disagree with that.

In fact, the German LMG's were unique, as they were more or less the first folks to come up with the idea of a general purpose machine gun that could be used for anything from squad LMGs to support MMGs to coaxial guns on tanks to hull guns on aircraft. The MG34 is the odd one out that uses a belt here.



Again, I'm still not understanding why you'd want to expend your limited ammunition before reloading shooting at walls and dirt. If you see -motion-, open up at it. It doesn't have to be a clear target. Maybe that's where I've been making the mistake in my explanations. You don't have to see a big obvious guy with a "kill me" sign on his head, but if you see a rifle sticking out from around a corner, yeah, you shoot at that to try and penetrate his cover and let him know that he's not as sneaky as he thinks he is. He'll think twice about popping out to shoot you.

However, you -stop- after that. Don't waste ammo just shooting at the wall. You've made your point, he knows you see him, keep an eye on that spot and go back to hunting for targets. Don't zero in on the first sign of life and pump all your bullets into it. Someone will pop out as soon as you stop to reload and kill you.

You want people to know there's an MG on the battlefield, but not where or what he's doing. You let them know "HEY, I SEE YOU" and then you wait for them to try something. You don't sit there and keep shooting so that the guy you -aren't- shooting at can identify your muzzle flash and kill you.

He's suppressed perfectly if you do it right. He can't peek out to try and see you, because you'll kill him. He certainly can't try to cross the area, because you'll kill him. If he tries to fight back, you'll kill him. He's well and truly suppressed, and without some help from his squadmates, a smoke grenade, and maybe an artillery barrage, there's no way he's getting through your line of fire, and he knows it. He's either going to go back the way he came and try and get around you or try to coordinate a way to root you out of your hidey hole.

Other than those two points the rest of the post is spot on.

I thought BAR's could be belt fed?