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Why do Germans always win?

[DH]Chris89

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 4, 2006
266
2
0
England - West Midlands
I mostly go which ever team has the less people on it.

Some maps i do prefer attacking though two of those being Grain Elevator and Red October Factory, as i find it more fun. Especially for Grain Elevator, but then only when you have a decent commander or squad leaders and the Russians don't fire MG's into your spawn.
 

Mureika

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sadly, like Set states, there's no denying there's a certain section of the RO community that plays exclusively Axis for, lets say ... "ideological" reasons.
Yes, there are a few of those in RO2 like in every game, but many players choose Germans for other reasons, not Ideological (Like me and my friends)
An explanation of this phenomenon can possibly be found in the number of videos on Youtube glorifying the German army of ww2, compared to the much smaller numbers glorifying the Red Army.
Not really.... There's tons of videos on Youtube glorifying the Red army in Russian language....
I'm not saying all of these are "wannabe nazis" - certainly a large number of them are just kids who think the the Germans are "way cooler" and have "better weapons".
Yeah right, me and my friends like Germans and we usually play as them in such games like: Day of Defeat, Day of Defeat: Source, Brothers in Arms Hell's Highway MP, Medal of Honor Allied Assault: Breakthrough MP, Call of Duty: United Offensive MP and Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad MP. Yes we think Germans are cooler and have better weapons. You have a problem with that? I'm 19 years old, my friends 18-20. There was a clan in BIA: HH, which was called German Elite Squad, members were 16-25 years old. On Russian community servers ( more people are using microphones there than in English- International servers) when I play on German side many of good players, or those ''one side'' players are older than 18( I state this from there voice), while when I play on Russian side, There's always 1-5 players talking with childrens voice..... Everyone is different, everyone likes different things, stop calling people kids just because they like different things or think differently.
I also like playing the underdogs it just makes it feel so much better when you actually win for once... :p
P.S. if you want to win more on Allies, go to Russian community servers....
 

Shadrach

Grizzled Veteran
May 2, 2006
2,690
400
83
Elitist Prick Ski Lodge
stian.freeshell.org
Yes we think Germans are cooler and have better weapons. You have a problem with that?
No, not a problem - I just can't understand the fascination with playing only one team, it just sounds it would be very boring. In addition to that, if people exclusively stack one team it contributes a lot to the unbalance this thread is about.

In RO1 I used to follow a simple rule; play every second map as different team, so Allies in one and Axis in the next, with a few exceptions obviously ;)

P.S. if you want to win more on Allies, go to Russian community servers....
And that's what I usually end up doing :)

But it's quite sad don't you think, that it has to be this way? That some servers are populated by veterans who play only one team and constantly steamroller the other team - what is the fun of winning every single match?
 

=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
9,798
890
0
53
Newton, NJ
But it's quite sad don't you think, that it has to be this way? That some servers are populated by veterans who play only one team and constantly steamroller the other team - what is the fun of winning every single match?
I could never figure out that mentality. Maybe in clan matches sure, but public play? B o r i n g . . .
 

Spetz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 25, 2012
246
2
0
Travelling
I've been playing since the free weekend quite intensively and I have some observations.

During the free weekend, Axis nearly always won. This is probably as speculated earlier in this thread that all the experienced players stacked axis to harvest frags. I have also noticed that there seems to be far more Axis-only players than Allies-only players; I have no idea why.

However, since the free weekend I have also observed an Axis bias on pretty much all the maps. I look at them in turn below.

Red October Factory: this map is ridiculously Axis-biased. I have played it at least 10 times (or more) and the Allies have only captured the whole map once. Even getting to D and E as a significant achievement worthy of victory for Allies. Usually by the time D and E are captured reinforcements are depleted. This is because, even if the Allies even succeed in getting A, they then have to cross yet more open ground to B and C where they are vulnerable to a crossfire making it very difficult. Similarly, D & E are also very difficult with lots of long range positions for Axis to set up MG crossfires to defend large areas of open ground. Two good MG on Axis can lock down the map. The fixed MG positions make it even easier for Axis to defend.

In my opinion, this map needs more reinforcements for Allies and at least the removal of the fixed MG positions to reduce the number of MG for Axis to only the player cap. I also think Axis spawn too close to the objectives making it too easy for them to return to the fight.

Commisar's House: an Axis-biased map although not as much as ROF. I have seen Allies win on this a few times although it apparently needs good Ally squad leaders and a sub-par Axis team.

In my opinion, the problem is the huge crossfire potential allowed to the Axis on objectives A and B at the start completely depletes the Ally reinforcements. Combined with the ability of the defenders to call artillery on the choke point coming out of spawn to delay any assault on A; and the ability of the Axis to recapture A & B makes it very hard for the Allies. Once the Allies get A and B it appears fairly balanced, but by that time the Allies have very low reinforcements and lose.

I think this map balance could be improved by further removing Axis spawn from A and B initially and removing the ability of Axis to recapture objectives A and B once captured by Allies. Possibly consider limiting Axis artillery barrages until 4 minutes in, for example.

Spartanovka: seems to me that this map is actually quite balanced if player skill is balanced. The Axis have reasonable spawn locations and the defenders spawn quite far back. This map appears to lean Axis because of previously mentioned skill stacking of Axis team. I generally never see Allies recapture objectives on Spartanovka unless Axis reinforcements are depleted.

Apartments: this map is interesting because I think balance changes with player count. In larger servers it is firmly Axis biased because of the ability of a few players in a few key locations to control the whole map. With large player numbers, there is a higher chance someone will be alive in that key location, making it very hard to attack. Similarly, on small player counts it is quite easy for a few Allies to punch through on one flank and kill a lot of Axis, allowing their whole team to advance. A problem with large player counts is that Axis can just grenade spam the river making it almost impossible to attack. Axis seem to regularly recapture objectives on this map once lost.

Therefore, I suggest limiting Axis grenades to 1 each on >20 players or something. Similarly, giving Allies limited Artillery/Mortar capability would be good.

Fallen Fighters & Pavlov's House: these maps seem to be reasonably well balanced because both teams attack and defend. During the free weekend Axis won a lot, but I don't see this so much now.

Station: a difficult map to call balance on but I think it slightly leans Axis. I think this is because the Ally start spawn is slightly too far back from A preventing them from setting up positions before the attack. Similarly, their spawns when A is lost are quite far back and prevent them getting back in the fight as quickly as Axis on Commisars or ROF. As soon as Axis can get 1-2 players into B (which is quite easy on the left flank because Ally spawn is so far back), they can wreak havoc with the defenders and allowing quickly capture C for the spawn point to move up. I have never seen the Allies recapture after losing an objective here.

Barashka: this map is biased Axis because, in my experience, they get to B and C cap zones slightly faster at the start. I have never seen Allies capture B and C at the start, and I have seen the Axis do it several times, moving their spawn points much closer leading to victory. I played on a server where the Allies had a tank and the Axis did not, and it seemed fairly balanced then, although I think it was not much fun for the Axis. Therefore, for this map I suggest slightly moving the Axis spawn points back to balance the distance to the objectives.

Mamayev: I believe to be slightly biased towards Axis in my opinion. I think this is because in the initial fight for A, the Axis get to the ridge first and can pick off the Allies taking up defensive positions. Moreover, when the Axis capture objectives their spawn points move forward very rapidly while the Allies move even further back. Coupled to this the fact that Allies have to run over open ground to get back to holding positions once C is lost and they are easily picked off by Axis. I think there needs to be some trenches up towards C for the Allies to avoid this, although this will also help the Axis attack, but would create some interesting choke points for CQB. I have never seen Allies recapture a defended objective here either.

I also think Mamayev suffers from what I believe to be a general weakness of RO2 which is the "leaving the combat area" rubbish. This makes defenders screens go red and auto death in 20 seconds if they don't "return to the fight". The fact is that the Axis could rush up one flank (a very effective tactic - not complaining) and capture the objectives without clearing out the whole map. I have lost countless great defensive positions in this way. In my opinion, this feature needs to be removed and the Axis suffer from some spawn kills if they haven
 

Mureika

FNG / Fresh Meat
I just can't understand the fascination with playing only one team, it just sounds it would be very boring. In addition to that, if people exclusively stack one team it contributes a lot to the unbalance this thread is about.
But it's quite sad don't you think, that it has to be this way? That some servers are populated by veterans who play only one team and constantly steamroller the other team - what is the fun of winning every single match?
That's why I love Battlefield 1943. You play every map twice, once with Americans the other with Japanese. No matter if the result is 1-1, only twice and the server changes teams after the first round. Yeah I agree with you, I don't understand one team players myself, Those who only play as Axis and those who only Play as Allies.....
 

Shadrach

Grizzled Veteran
May 2, 2006
2,690
400
83
Elitist Prick Ski Lodge
stian.freeshell.org
Commisar's House: an Axis-biased map although not as much as ROF. I have seen Allies win on this a few times although it apparently needs good Ally squad leaders and a sub-par Axis team.
Most of what you state is more or less true, but especially this. Commisar's is the worst example of unbalanced map-making I've ever played on. It is the biggest reason for ragequits of all the maps I play.

Basically it's just a long chokepoint with possibility for the Germans to put MGs up on the flanks and mow down everything almost unopposed, as you have to cross huge open ground to get to their positions.

In addition the Germans are able to get to the rear of the map behind the Allies spawn and play cat and mouse with those who spawn. Since most players have next to zero situational awareness a couple of Germans can do this without anyone coming for them, and Allies going into the same fire over and over again.

The 2nd Allied spawn is inside a house that German players know how to cover all the exits of with MG fire. Basically it's a death trap, you cannot exit anywhere but the rear without getting mown down.

Once the Germans learn this, the map is just simply not fun to play at all. Can't be much fun for the Germans either, running a shooting gallery...

</raage> :(
 

Sir Reginald

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 7, 2011
311
71
0
1 to 10
1 balance map
10 crazy unbalanced map
if you have teams of equal skills



I've been playing since the free weekend quite intensively and I have some observations.

During the free weekend, Axis nearly always won. This is probably as speculated earlier in this thread that all the experienced players stacked axis to harvest frags. I have also noticed that there seems to be far more Axis-only players than Allies-only players; I have no idea why.

However, since the free weekend I have also observed an Axis bias on pretty much all the maps. I look at them in turn below.

Red October Factory: this map is ridiculously Axis-biased. I have played it at least 10 times (or more) and the Allies have only captured the whole map once. Even getting to D and E as a significant achievement worthy of victory for Allies. Usually by the time D and E are captured reinforcements are depleted. This is because, even if the Allies even succeed in getting A, they then have to cross yet more open ground to B and C where they are vulnerable to a crossfire making it very difficult. Similarly, D & E are also very difficult with lots of long range positions for Axis to set up MG crossfires to defend large areas of open ground. Two good MG on Axis can lock down the map. The fixed MG positions make it even easier for Axis to defend.

ROF is a 7
teams with the same skill , the germans will win 7 out of 10 times

In my opinion, this map needs more reinforcements for Allies and at least the removal of the fixed MG positions to reduce the number of MG for Axis to only the player cap. I also think Axis spawn too close to the objectives making it too easy for them to return to the fight.

Commisar's House: an Axis-biased map although not as much as ROF. I have seen Allies win on this a few times although it apparently needs good Ally squad leaders and a sub-par Axis team.


8 , this map is a easy 8


In my opinion, the problem is the huge crossfire potential allowed to the Axis on objectives A and B at the start completely depletes the Ally reinforcements. Combined with the ability of the defenders to call artillery on the choke point coming out of spawn to delay any assault on A; and the ability of the Axis to recapture A & B makes it very hard for the Allies. Once the Allies get A and B it appears fairly balanced, but by that time the Allies have very low reinforcements and lose.

I think this map balance could be improved by further removing Axis spawn from A and B initially and removing the ability of Axis to recapture objectives A and B once captured by Allies. Possibly consider limiting Axis artillery barrages until 4 minutes in, for example.

Spartanovka: seems to me that this map is actually quite balanced if player skill is balanced. The Axis have reasonable spawn locations and the defenders spawn quite far back. This map appears to lean Axis because of previously mentioned skill stacking of Axis team. I generally never see Allies recapture objectives on Spartanovka unless Axis reinforcements are depleted.

7 , if the german team knows what they doing they win 7 out of 10 times played


Apartments: this map is interesting because I think balance changes with player count. In larger servers it is firmly Axis biased because of the ability of a few players in a few key locations to control the whole map. With large player numbers, there is a higher chance someone will be alive in that key location, making it very hard to attack. Similarly, on small player counts it is quite easy for a few Allies to punch through on one flank and kill a lot of Axis, allowing their whole team to advance. A problem with large player counts is that Axis can just grenade spam the river making it almost impossible to attack. Axis seem to regularly recapture objectives on this map once lost.


2 or 3 this map is all about who knows how to play it


Therefore, I suggest limiting Axis grenades to 1 each on >20 players or something. Similarly, giving Allies limited Artillery/Mortar capability would be good.

Fallen Fighters & Pavlov's House: these maps seem to be reasonably well balanced because both teams attack and defend. During the free weekend Axis won a lot, but I don't see this so much now.

Fallen Fighters 4 , Russians
Cap C is easier for the Russians to Cap it closer to the Russian Spawn

Pavlov house 5 German , the main cap on this map is very large for the german team ,while the Russians Have a Small cap area (they have to get into the house)
There also so many ways for the germans to spawn camp the Russians spawns


Station: a difficult map to call balance on but I think it slightly leans Axis. I think this is because the Ally start spawn is slightly too far back from A preventing them from setting up positions before the attack. Similarly, their spawns when A is lost are quite far back and prevent them getting back in the fight as quickly as Axis on Commisars or ROF. As soon as Axis can get 1-2 players into B (which is quite easy on the left flank because Ally spawn is so far back), they can wreak havoc with the defenders and allowing quickly capture C for the spawn point to move up. I have never seen the Allies recapture after losing an objective here.


Station 6 russian
small map with arty,
lots of good cover for the russians to use



Barashka: this map is biased Axis because, in my experience, they get to B and C cap zones slightly faster at the start. I have never seen Allies capture B and C at the start, and I have seen the Axis do it several times, moving their spawn points much closer leading to victory. I played on a server where the Allies had a tank and the Axis did not, and it seemed fairly balanced then, although I think it was not much fun for the Axis. Therefore, for this map I suggest slightly moving the Axis spawn points back to balance the distance to the objectives.

Barashka 7 german , the German spawns at the start of the much closer to first caps , moving their spawns even close after they cap the first easy caps
If the germans move fast the maps over in 5 mins



Mamayev: I believe to be slightly biased towards Axis in my opinion. I think this is because in the initial fight for A, the Axis get to the ridge first and can pick off the Allies taking up defensive positions. Moreover, when the Axis capture objectives their spawn points move forward very rapidly while the Allies move even further back. Coupled to this the fact that Allies have to run over open ground to get back to holding positions once C is lost and they are easily picked off by Axis. I think there needs to be some trenches up towards C for the Allies to avoid this, although this will also help the Axis attack, but would create some interesting choke points for CQB. I have never seen Allies recapture a defended objective here either.

Mamayev 7 german
Next to no cover for the russians
Wide open flanks for the germans with cover
tranches set up backwards giving next to no cover to the russians while leading to all the russians caps and giving good cover to the germans

I also think Mamayev suffers from what I believe to be a general weakness of RO2 which is the "leaving the combat area" rubbish. This makes defenders screens go red and auto death in 20 seconds if they don't "return to the fight". The fact is that the Axis could rush up one flank (a very effective tactic - not complaining) and capture the objectives without clearing out the whole map. I have lost countless great defensive positions in this way. In my opinion, this feature needs to be removed and the Axis suffer from some spawn kills if they haven
 

Spetz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 25, 2012
246
2
0
Travelling
1 to 10
The main reason most of the maps are lost other than the maps balance
Is team unbalance
A skilled team playing a weak team will win even if the map is unbalanced
I agree, this is very true. I tried to control for this in my comments but they may still be biased on player skill somewhat.

In my experience, however, for the Allies to win at all on Commissar's or Red October Factory they have to be significantly better and have greater teamplay than the Axis. This very rarely happens because people know that these maps are Axis biased and just stack Axis. Since I load the map first (I have an SSD), I watch people join and consistently Axis is 2-3 players ahead in player count before the game starts as everyone tries to join Axis.

Therefore, the map imbalance creates a team skill imbalance, which REALLY sucks for the people playing Allies. In engineering parlance this is known as positive feedback: a slight mismatch leads to run-away increasing mismatch in the initial bias direction usually leading to system failure. Because experienced players know the map is heavily biased one side, they just join that side because they can't be bothered to play a side where they get killed consistently for 30 minutes, leading to an even greater favour of that team.

As illustration of this point, I will quote the Ultimate Map Balance thread ([url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=86414[/URL]) where Sensemann is a perfect case study:

Regarding Red October Factory

I am honest, from Monday to Friday I am almost always playing Axis on this map. After a hard day of work, I am simply not in the mood of getting screwed on this map. On the weekend, I play Allies most often.

Reason is: As Allies, you surely need a good commander and it looks like the really good allied commanders are mostly only playing on weekends or at times during the week that I am not online.
However, not only do you need a good commander on this map, but you need good squad leaders too.
For the other maps, an even slightly better Axis team (because of people's apparent Axis bias) generally wins because the map is slightly in their favour. Therefore, for maps where the Allies are favoured, the Axis have to be only slightly better or equal in skill but with better teamplay to win. However, for the maps where the Axis are favoured, they are so heavily favoured that the Allies have to be SO much better in skill/teamplay to win that it is a rare occurrence.

Most of what you state is more or less true, but especially this. Commisar's is the worst example of unbalanced map-making I've ever played on. It is the biggest reason for ragequits of all the maps I play.

Basically it's just a long chokepoint with possibility for the Germans to put MGs up on the flanks and mow down everything almost unopposed, as you have to cross huge open ground to get to their positions.

In addition the Germans are able to get to the rear of the map behind the Allies spawn and play cat and mouse with those who spawn. Since most players have next to zero situational awareness a couple of Germans can do this without anyone coming for them, and Allies going into the same fire over and over again.

The 2nd Allied spawn is inside a house that German players know how to cover all the exits of with MG fire. Basically it's a death trap, you cannot exit anywhere but the rear without getting mown down.

Once the Germans learn this, the map is just simply not fun to play at all. Can't be much fun for the Germans either, running a shooting gallery...

</raage>
Thanks for the agreement Shadrach. I agree with what you have mentioned.

Do you have any suggestions for minor changes to Commissar
 

Shadrach

Grizzled Veteran
May 2, 2006
2,690
400
83
Elitist Prick Ski Lodge
stian.freeshell.org
Do you have any suggestions for minor changes to Commissar’s to improve the balance? I’m not talking of a huge map redesign because that is frankly not going to happen. Or do you agree with my suggestions for minor changes?
I think this map balance could be improved by further removing Axis spawn from A and B initially and removing the ability of Axis to recapture objectives A and B once captured by Allies. Possibly consider limiting Axis artillery barrages until 4 minutes in, for example.
These are all really good suggestions, I'd also say spawn protection area for Allies 2nd spawn in the house have to be increased, and exits changed so the only exits are not death-traps for MG fire.

Germans should be prevented from going to the rear behind Allies spawn as well, once they are there they are able wreak havoc with very little the Allies can do about it.

I admit was a bit frustrated when writing that earlier post :p - I'd just gotten off one of those horrid rounds when everything goes wrong on Commisar's and Allies are unable to advance any more than A & B...
 
Last edited:

Sir Reginald

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 7, 2011
311
71
0
I agree, this is very true. I tried to control for this in my comments but they may still be biased on player skill somewhat.

In my experience, however, for the Allies to win at all on Commissar's or Red October Factory they have to be significantly better and have greater teamplay than the Axis. This very rarely happens because people know that these maps are Axis biased and just stack Axis. Since I load the map first (I have an SSD), I watch people join and consistently Axis is 2-3 players ahead in player count before the game starts as everyone tries to join Axis.

Therefore, the map imbalance creates a team skill imbalance, which REALLY sucks for the people playing Allies. In engineering parlance this is known as positive feedback: a slight mismatch leads to run-away increasing mismatch in the initial bias direction usually leading to system failure. Because experienced players know the map is heavily biased one side, they just join that side because they can't be bothered to play a side where they get killed consistently for 30 minutes, leading to an even greater favour of that team.

As illustration of this point, I will quote the Ultimate Map Balance thread ([url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=86414[/URL]) where Sensemann is a perfect case study:



For the other maps, an even slightly better Axis team (because of people's apparent Axis bias) generally wins because the map is slightly in their favour. Therefore, for maps where the Allies are favoured, the Axis have to be only slightly better or equal in skill but with better teamplay to win. However, for the maps where the Axis are favoured, they are so heavily favoured that the Allies have to be SO much better in skill/teamplay to win that it is a rare occurrence.



Thanks for the agreement Shadrach. I agree with what you have mentioned.

Do you have any suggestions for minor changes to Commissar’s to improve the balance? I’m not talking of a huge map redesign because that is frankly not going to happen. Or do you agree with my suggestions for minor changes?

I think that identifying the problems with maps and suggesting minor changes to fix them is a useful exercise rather than just all agreeing that maps are particularly bad with no suggestions for improvements!
You guys do know this is the fix
The big patch before this one they patched this map(commissar's), alone with Pavlov's house, ROF, Mamayev , and Apartments
They made Apartments much harder for the Russians to Win (one of the few easy russians maps)
Pavlov's house ,they fix some of the spawn camping the germans could do ,but not all of it
ROF ,they took away 1 german tank but give the germans much more cover all the way down the map
Mamayev they took away 75 reinforcements from the germans , yes it a easy german map but before they always end the map with 100+ reinforments
TWI always likes the germans
Both new maps are balanced towards the germans
both really badly unbalanced towards the germans
one they balanced more so now, Mamayv , but it was crazy unbalanced , now it just very unbalanced , LOL
Barashka is funny , as a german , if your fast to can end the map almost before the russian can get to their A cap
i seen this map end in less than 5 mins
 
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Spetz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 25, 2012
246
2
0
Travelling
I admit was a bit frustrated when writing that earlier post :p - I'd just gotten off one of those horrid rounds when everything goes wrong on Commisar's and Allies are unable to advance any more than A & B...
Yes, I know the feeling! And when you finally capture A or B after trading blood, sweat, and tears, the Axis just recapture while you focus on the other objective adding insult to injurt and you ragequit.

These are all really good suggestions, I'd also say spawn protection area for Allies 2nd spawn in the house have to be increased, and exits changed so the only exits are not death-traps for MG fire.

Germans should be prevented from going to the rear behind Allies spawn as well, once they are there they are able wreak havoc with very little the Allies can do about it.
Thanks, and good ideas. Although I think a redesign of A possibly classes as a major change and makes it less likely. Certainly, preventing the Axis from going behind the Allies is a very good suggestion.
 

Sensemann

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 10, 2009
1,147
269
0
Shanghai, China
Therefore, the map imbalance creates a team skill imbalance, which REALLY sucks for the people playing Allies. In engineering parlance this is known as positive feedback: a slight mismatch leads to run-away increasing mismatch in the initial bias direction usually leading to system failure. Because experienced players know the map is heavily biased one side, they just join that side because they can't be bothered to play a side where they get killed consistently for 30 minutes, leading to an even greater favour of that team.

As illustration of this point, I will quote the Ultimate Map Balance thread ([url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=86414[/URL]) where Sensemann is a perfect case study:
Yeah, I feel like a guinea pig now. I know the problem that my approach brings, but I hope you can also understand me. When I join a server running Red October factory, I usually wait until about 20 people have selected their classes (I am usually loading maps very fast) to see who is going on which team. If I see 2-3 names that I know to be pretty experienced players going russians on Red October Factory, I am joining them. If all names are unfamiliar, I believe the russians get powned due to lack of communication, coordination and skill. And I don't need to get frustrated while being off work. For frustration, I am already working with my annoying clients. Hope you get my point.

Regards,

guinea pig :D
 

skate

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 9, 2012
33
1
0
Spetz, very well thought out post +1 to you. Alhough I'd say Grain Elevator is pretty even and can go either way if the teams are skill balanced, but, yeah, I agree most maps in current rotation (including most of the popular user made maps) favor Axis.

During my playing hours (usually off hours for US and Europe sinceI am based in SE Asia), it's rare to see the Allies with more vets (i.e., 'regulars') than the Axis. Guess many players are just interested in easy wins.

I'm not sure if TWI will do any more map balancing... but hope they will reconsider looking into further balacing the maps like Commisars and Apartments. I'm ok with Mamayev since a decent Allied Team does have a hope to win (as long as we don't have any satchel happy engineer blowing up our own bunkers...). Also agree with Sir Reginald on Barashka - I really question why TWI even bothered to put efforts in building this map at all when there are many other more popular RO1 maps available.

to Sensemann - I hear you, we already have enough frustration in 'Real Life'. But I'll also give another go as Allies in Commisars because *when* and *if* all goes well and you win against vet heavy Axis Team, it's just so much sweeter :)
 

Sensemann

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 10, 2009
1,147
269
0
Shanghai, China
On Comissar's House, I am almost exclusively playing Allies as of late. That map is just a clusterf*ck where German spawn kills are so cheap, they shouldn't even be counted. On the other hand, any kills you make while being a Russian, should be counted 10 times. Plus, winning that map as Russian is pure pleasure and usually still happens with a good commander.

Where located in SEA? Add me on steam. Account name: Bocholter
 

Spetz

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 25, 2012
246
2
0
Travelling
Yeah, I feel like a guinea pig now. I know the problem that my approach brings, but I hope you can also understand me. When I join a server running Red October factory, I usually wait until about 20 people have selected their classes (I am usually loading maps very fast) to see who is going on which team. If I see 2-3 names that I know to be pretty experienced players going russians on Red October Factory, I am joining them. If all names are unfamiliar, I believe the russians get powned due to lack of communication, coordination and skill. And I don't need to get frustrated while being off work. For frustration, I am already working with my annoying clients. Hope you get my point.

Regards,

guinea pig :D
Hi Sensemann,

I didn't mean to criticise your approach, sorry. The fact is that your approach is entirely reasonable and I think a fair representation of many players' attitude. Indeed, I also am sometimes not in the mood to be destroyed for 30 minutes after a hard day's work so I just play Axis on Commissar's or ROF.

My point was to illustrate that what I was speaking of in theoretical terms actually does happen. The player is not wrong. The player is always correct in his/her approach.

Therefore, this is a valid argument for having balanced maps. The more balanced it is, the more fun people have. Noone wants to spend the whole time looking at a black screen or waiting to respawn because as soon as they move 10ft they are cut down by MG crossfire. The point I made in the previous post was that I think minor changes could be made to these maps to redress the imbalance. Hopefully, these have a high chance of implementation since they would not take too long to implement as opposed to a major map redesign.

Spetz, very well thought out post +1 to you. Alhough I'd say Grain Elevator is pretty even and can go either way if the teams are skill balanced, but, yeah, I agree most maps in current rotation (including most of the popular user made maps) favor Axis.

During my playing hours (usually off hours for US and Europe sinceI am based in SE Asia), it's rare to see the Allies with more vets (i.e., 'regulars') than the Axis. Guess many players are just interested in easy wins.

I'm not sure if TWI will do any more map balancing... but hope they will reconsider looking into further balacing the maps like Commisars and Apartments. I'm ok with Mamayev since a decent Allied Team does have a hope to win (as long as we don't have any satchel happy engineer blowing up our own bunkers...). Also agree with Sir Reginald on Barashka - I really question why TWI even bothered to put efforts in building this map at all when there are many other more popular RO1 maps available.
Thanks Skate.

I agree somewhat - Grain Elevator can be won by the Allies but the times I see it done the Allies manage to not lose A initially (rare) and have very good squad leaders who stay alive at A and allow players to spawn on them. Axis always win if A is lost rapidly. At the moment, I think the initial spawns are biased towards Axis with them getting to the A capzone first and in superior numbers (if they go to their right) before Allies even get there. I think an Ally spawn 3 seconds closer to A would benefit map balance on Grain.

I also generally think that Axis tends to be biased in player skill which I cannot entirely explain. However, I think it is somewhat explained by the fact that the maps are always skewed in Axis favour. Lets be honest, who actually wants to lose? Winning is more fun in general, leading to Axis stacking by experienced players.

I certainly hope TWI will do map balancing. I think they might if it is only minor changes - I don't think map layouts will be changed. Map balancing is key to a game's longevity.

Seriously, who thinks that having half a server population of players on Ally side on Commissar's or ROF getting totally destroyed for 30 minutes is good for player retention?!
 

specta3

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 1, 2012
85
2
0
A larger percentage of ranked and experienced player AXIS STACK .
Its just a meat grind most of the time , the odd rare night you find a server with a bit balance but most night its AXIS STACKING .

Its so easy to resolve all you have to do is have 3 rounds and auto switch team after the first round and if it goes to the third round it can be a random selection as to which team are the Russians and which are the Germans.

But fact is it wont ever happen because the majority of players are more interested in wearing a nice Hugo Boss suit and slaughtering new players in there spawn, AXIS STACKING . It makes for terrible and frustrating game play and its part of the reason the game loses so many players