It kinda is a problem with the game, because instead of it being about surviving a horde + big guys like it was in KF1, it's now about waiting around breezing through trash until the really big bullet sponges appear.
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Scrakes > Fleshpounds - Both are no-fun bullet sponges
- Thread starter Akimbo
- Start date
I belive the purpose of the fleshpound is to create tension amongst a team and to draw them out of the areas that everyone just camps in. Tripwire spent a lot of time making these large maps. There are areas to camp in; yes, but I don't believe they intended for us to just sit in one spot. When one; or especially more, fleshpounds come out you don't really have any choice but to run and try and survive. That being said, I think it was great how tripwire designed it all. Scrakes have chainsaws the size of a young teenager, so in my opinion they should cause more damage, and the quarter pounders create the chaos needed to draw you out.
It's not really too tough to take on scrakes. With a decent team. You have to focus on all the smaller guys first, especially the husks, then sirens and bloats, and then go for the Jason Vorhees psychos. Best strategy is to have one person lure one or more scrakes away so that the rest of the team can easily take one on. If you have a good commando, he can easily take a scrake down most of the way by aiming carefully with head shots. Then the rest of the team can can unload on him. Another hint I will add. .. when you run past a raging scrake from the front, run past his left arm, so his chainsaw doesn't hit you. If you run past from behind then you want to run past his right arm as he will swing towards his left.
Try these tactics alone on suicidal and you will get good at them. Then just coordinate with your team accordingly when online, and all should be good. Bottom line. .. make sure the team knows not to stay engaging a scrake until most of the other smaller guys are KIA, and that everyone is ready and prepared to join in on the attack. Hope this all helps.
It's not really too tough to take on scrakes. With a decent team. You have to focus on all the smaller guys first, especially the husks, then sirens and bloats, and then go for the Jason Vorhees psychos. Best strategy is to have one person lure one or more scrakes away so that the rest of the team can easily take one on. If you have a good commando, he can easily take a scrake down most of the way by aiming carefully with head shots. Then the rest of the team can can unload on him. Another hint I will add. .. when you run past a raging scrake from the front, run past his left arm, so his chainsaw doesn't hit you. If you run past from behind then you want to run past his right arm as he will swing towards his left.
Try these tactics alone on suicidal and you will get good at them. Then just coordinate with your team accordingly when online, and all should be good. Bottom line. .. make sure the team knows not to stay engaging a scrake until most of the other smaller guys are KIA, and that everyone is ready and prepared to join in on the attack. Hope this all helps.
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That fact that FP have a weakness and scrake dont already make scrakes OP with 10 times the number per wave. The "everyone unload on him" doesnt really work that well on HOE, they dont die fast enough. Only EMP kill scrake fast enough before other scrakes reach the team.
Yeah, TWI wanted to make FP to flush you out but it fails, they die extremely fast because it has a weakness. Scrakes is doing all the work, flushing you out, killing, DPS, tank, distraction. If the team really know what to do on HOE you dont need someone to tell somebody to buy a pulv for FP, you wont see people AA12 FPs instead of nade the FP then go for the trash. As soon as a scrake shows you will see the blue lightning effect and everyone will be shooting the scrake's head for a 3 second decap. Kiting is the easy way out and that's what most team do with the fancy "communication". Then every wave there's 10 scrakes at the end of the wave and people spent double the time just to split them up.
All you want is have enough zerk in the team, but not for their close combat ability, not for the fancy parry/stumble (which is pretty useless on scrakes), but for stacking enough EMP for each single scrake. So yes, scrakes are still no fun bullet sponges.
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Not to mention "DPS the sponge or you die" is not horrendously entertaining, especially when every non-scrake/fp encounter is practically just an ammo sink.
I get the purpose of a sponge, obviously, but it's so out of balance with everything else. Also goes against that thing they were talking about with having guns feel effective, which was half the reason they opted to not just boost zed health with difficulty.
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You're giving zerkers too little credit but it's also cause you're playing with devante and friends (Jpn region). They are highly effective to the point where each of them can hold a corridor the length of the sirens max scream with one scar alone. Before anything is said for or against that it is also because they understand the best team holdout spot, how to properly divide up the spawns, when the scrakes will spawn, every shot is a headshot, how to maneuver the small corridor to clear the trash then bring scrakes to where the majority of the team is holding so they can emp+headshot it to death. It has nothing to do with zerker being an emp slave. If you don't have good team layout or players that understand 90% of the above then as a zerker, you're better off just door zerking and parry locking.
Play in any region (even JPN) outside of Devante + friends and I can assure you that even with good zerkers due to the lack of strategic play it'll be just like playing with a group of people that don't know what an emp does. At that point you'll do the team better by holding a door and clearing all trash.
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Hoe, lvl 25 support, 3/4 doble shots from a boomstick to decapitate a sc in a a 6 players game, no emp required, learn to play, stop crying, end of thread.
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The conditions need to be more ideal for that. Emp decap allows for a quicker kill as the waves is going on instead of, separate scrakes one by one at the end or clear me while I circle.
By saying learn to play does not make that better nor is it the ideal scrake kill method. A slight change in the turn speed or instant targeting like fps have and you'll be the one crying about how op scrakes are. You have a team, use it.
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Because before the reowrk zerk is actually only have one use. They dont even kill clots fast enough after spending extra few seconds to run in front of them.
Umm.... the "EMP slave" start works pretty well with players who have above average aim and knows about the tactic. When I play with some random player in Asia servers (may be all of them are his friends, who knows) we can at least hold out till wave 8-9. Medium games are easy with this tactic, and for long game if you really need to have a high win rate, then I would agree you need 1-2 god tier players. But if you only want to win once in a while, randoms who know this tactic works good enough.
Seriously, who doesnt know that...?
I am not sure I follow here, I dont think they are actually dividing spawns or actually know when scrakes will spawn. And only on biotic lab do you really need a very, very good commando to "bring the scrakes" to the team while killing things. All the other official maps only requires you to EMP a scrake on sight.
Oh wait... just as I start to believe people can and should actually do this around this forum. Everyone here claims they can do this. So why is this suddenly become a JP only thing?
This is still the most effective way, I mean, as you would call it, the "EMP slave" thing. People even claim that scrake are too easy because its "only 25 headshots from a commando". And your "best team loadout" is simply have 3+ pulv and enough zerk for EMP. How is this that even remotely hard to understand? Parry locking gets you kill, even with Dev and friends. Because its simply broken in any possible way.
Unless all Asians are his friends, I dont see "EMP slave" tactic is a fail. Like I said, I play with randoms in Asia servers (KOR,JP,CHI,HK,TW) and most of the times we still get to wave 8-9 (and medium games have way over 50% win rate). But no doubt JP have the biggest player base and influence the play style around here the most.
Its the difference in mindset I guess. When I try to parry in solo, I thought its god tier, but when I try that online, it randomly fails and kills me. And then I still get kill even I practice and get pretty decent in parrying, because teammates cancel the parry (thanks TWI) by simply damaging the scrake. So I stop doing that and seek another way, then I see a zerk EMP it and pop his head with AA12. I see it as a effective way and followed. When people are complaining about FP's health I was thinking... it is weak to explosives right? What weapons do explosive damage? Then I test how many hits it takes to kill a FP with pulv, its surprisingly low. Then I encourage people to buy pulv. This seems very logical to me but most players, for some reason, go straight to kiting or "lets focus fire the FP with weapons doing 50% damage, AA12 seems nice".
EDIT: HAHA, just as I am wrinting this, another "pro" claim that learn to play can help you 3-4 DBS alt-fire to kill scrake. I am still waiting for those "25 headshots commando kills" or those "fancy DBS kills" in a real game. You know what? There's a reason why KOR and JP get waaaaaay better than others in gaming. They find ways that are really effective, not go on a test map to kill some scrakes then tell people to "L2P" and think to himself "I just got myself a good tactic".
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I don't play the game beyond hard, but from my own experience scrakes are far more deadly than FPs are. You can easily dodge the FP and he doesn't seem to do nearly enough damage as the scrake. Whereas if you get caught off guard by an enraged scrake they can easily down you in seconds.
Scrakes are at least fun once you learn how to exploit their turn radius, and when I see a lone scrake I take great joy in hugging him and circle strafing, dodging the occasional lunge or spin attack with my superior medic speed.
The FP isn't as fun to fight since he's just a bullet sponge, but really he's not much different than he was in KF1...if only for the fact he now has a spinning whirlwind attack and lunge attack (which is kinda fun to try and dodge or bait).
If they remove the ability to circle strafe the scrake he'll go from fun to "the most annoying aspect of the game" just behind Hans.
Scrakes are at least fun once you learn how to exploit their turn radius, and when I see a lone scrake I take great joy in hugging him and circle strafing, dodging the occasional lunge or spin attack with my superior medic speed.
The FP isn't as fun to fight since he's just a bullet sponge, but really he's not much different than he was in KF1...if only for the fact he now has a spinning whirlwind attack and lunge attack (which is kinda fun to try and dodge or bait).
If they remove the ability to circle strafe the scrake he'll go from fun to "the most annoying aspect of the game" just behind Hans.
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Looks like some clarification is needed.
I didn't say that EMP'ing isn't effective, I'm saying that EMP only isn't the Zerker's role. I have effectively held out a main door while my team single funnel'd in a public match and on top of that parry locked 2 FP's twice for the final wave. Still parry locked scrakes even when it was cancelled (I just adjusted to full time parry), the only time a team got hit was when someone moved and gave a free spawn point behind us. Once again, you aren't giving Zerker's enough credit.
I could have worded that better, but you took it out of context. The rest of this, "how to properly divide up the spawns, when the scrakes will spawn, .....how to maneuver the small corridor to clear the trash then bring scrakes to where the majority of the team is holding so they can emp+headshot it to death.", is also relevent to it.
There is always a goto for the holdout spot on any map but the issue is that if they really wanted to they could hold anywhere. Even places where no one would dare try because they understand where unusual spawns(crawlers/stalkers) would spawn in from and they know how to divert the spawn evenly so that instead of 48 coming from one area, they have something along the lines of 24 coming from the main area, 12 from one and 12 from another.
Spawn splitting explained above. Depending on where you decide to hold you may need to bring scrake but most likely the following areas will be utilized:
Outpost - ATV
Manor - U shaped balcony
Paris - 2nd Floor courtyard (the bridge)
In all of those, yes there's no need to kite and bring.
Headshots in a length of a siren's max scream distance. That's literally like 3 steps away from when a fp/scrakes will do it's ranged attack. That's what I'm saying, not that when a ZED is 100 yards away go for headshots.
Yes it is the most effective method, however I don't normally play in the Asia region which is a shame because the skill gap is very different. Come play in the US region public and watch what players do when a Scrake spawns, you will cry.
Once again, EMP is a very VERY valid tactic. It's just that outside of JPN/Asia regions you throw an EMP and people use that to run away. Get 4 people lined up throw an EMP tell them to headshot and watch the EMP run out and the scrake still alive while everyone is reloading. It's depressing, you have a better playerbase to work with.
My main point in my post was that you made it sound like Zerker is only good to for the EMP and nothing else. I'm saying that from experience (since you don't seem to play Zerker at all), they have more utility than you give it credit. You see Zerker's played as a Scar/Pulv as that is metagame in Asia. Look at any Zerker's in the US region, you'll see them running up to mobs with the pulverizer and cry when they don't get healed. I play with a mix between the two, if I see that EMP'ing is failing due to lack of team competency then I will go Crovel/Pulv zerker and clear trash and use the door/corner to help assist with bloat/husk/sirens. The Attack Strength perk will keep me alive even without a medic healing me. That's my point AsianDERP, I come and invite you to play in any public US server. You'll instantly see the difference between Asian servers that can clear and hold a side vs one where 3 gorefasts + 1 siren approaching a side will cause a teamwide panic and cause that side to fall. It's very very different.
I didn't say that EMP'ing isn't effective, I'm saying that EMP only isn't the Zerker's role. I have effectively held out a main door while my team single funnel'd in a public match and on top of that parry locked 2 FP's twice for the final wave. Still parry locked scrakes even when it was cancelled (I just adjusted to full time parry), the only time a team got hit was when someone moved and gave a free spawn point behind us. Once again, you aren't giving Zerker's enough credit.
I could have worded that better, but you took it out of context. The rest of this, "how to properly divide up the spawns, when the scrakes will spawn, .....how to maneuver the small corridor to clear the trash then bring scrakes to where the majority of the team is holding so they can emp+headshot it to death.", is also relevent to it.
There is always a goto for the holdout spot on any map but the issue is that if they really wanted to they could hold anywhere. Even places where no one would dare try because they understand where unusual spawns(crawlers/stalkers) would spawn in from and they know how to divert the spawn evenly so that instead of 48 coming from one area, they have something along the lines of 24 coming from the main area, 12 from one and 12 from another.
Spawn splitting explained above. Depending on where you decide to hold you may need to bring scrake but most likely the following areas will be utilized:
Outpost - ATV
Manor - U shaped balcony
Paris - 2nd Floor courtyard (the bridge)
In all of those, yes there's no need to kite and bring.
Headshots in a length of a siren's max scream distance. That's literally like 3 steps away from when a fp/scrakes will do it's ranged attack. That's what I'm saying, not that when a ZED is 100 yards away go for headshots.
Yes it is the most effective method, however I don't normally play in the Asia region which is a shame because the skill gap is very different. Come play in the US region public and watch what players do when a Scrake spawns, you will cry.
Once again, EMP is a very VERY valid tactic. It's just that outside of JPN/Asia regions you throw an EMP and people use that to run away. Get 4 people lined up throw an EMP tell them to headshot and watch the EMP run out and the scrake still alive while everyone is reloading. It's depressing, you have a better playerbase to work with.
My main point in my post was that you made it sound like Zerker is only good to for the EMP and nothing else. I'm saying that from experience (since you don't seem to play Zerker at all), they have more utility than you give it credit. You see Zerker's played as a Scar/Pulv as that is metagame in Asia. Look at any Zerker's in the US region, you'll see them running up to mobs with the pulverizer and cry when they don't get healed. I play with a mix between the two, if I see that EMP'ing is failing due to lack of team competency then I will go Crovel/Pulv zerker and clear trash and use the door/corner to help assist with bloat/husk/sirens. The Attack Strength perk will keep me alive even without a medic healing me. That's my point AsianDERP, I come and invite you to play in any public US server. You'll instantly see the difference between Asian servers that can clear and hold a side vs one where 3 gorefasts + 1 siren approaching a side will cause a teamwide panic and cause that side to fall. It's very very different.
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I hope they will fix the stupid circling method, anyone can parry a raged scrake, isnt so hard (if parry isnt bugged) but makes the head of the scrake hard to hit. Emp+zerker with scar+commando is another way to decapitate it fast, i just want to say that scrakes are ok being hard to kill, but they arent so much a bullet sponge as some people are telling here. You and your team need skill and a high level of cooperation, if you cant deal with them then u need to improve (and your team).
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I know what's going on over the EU/US. I have a few steam friends over there and played with them too (not as much because nearly 300 ping is a pain in the behind), and that's why it really bothers me that everyone knows FPs have explosive weakness and keep shooting it with AA12. When a EMP goes off everyone go in and circle around the scrake. Like.... where is the hard part to understand? EVERY SINGLE GAME I play in the US resulting in a stupid boring kite fest for 15 minutes per wave.
And you know what? That's why I rage (shamefully, quite often) on this forum because people keep saying IN THEORY you can do this you can do that and I see none of them when I play with them over the US/EU. They claim that they can do all the fancy stuff but NONE of them, not even once, I can actually see in a real game. I am still yet to see a melee berserker who doesnt die every wave (not solo), even on youtube. Everytime I search HOE and berserker, I see the background of the test map.
Yeah, there's a skill gap, and that's because people only theory-craft and praise every official decisions without a second thought. We have parry, it must be used. Somebody beat HOE, it must be fine. We are starting to test how to make zeds jump down from 2F of biotic lab instead of stuck over the stairs, in a real game btw. At least for me, I want to seek effective ways to deal with things and hope the broken things get fix, not spamming "they are fine" all over the place. I am hammering the FP while people are shooting it with AA12. It really bugs me when some people agree on FP being too tanky and scrakes are somehow fine. Its because you ignores the "explosive weakness" part.
With the parry locking you simply dont kill them fast enough before everything swarms the team. You can parry 1 scrake/FP over and over, but if there's 2, you start to get hit, and with 100 health you die in 2 hits, with heal, 3 hits you are still dead. Possible to do well =/= its effective enough. You yourself knows that people over your region dont now about the game, yet everyone in this forum is saying the game is easy, scrake are fine while keep getting kill by scrakes over and over again. Parry locking means no head shot, no headshot means ~6 mag of SCAR to kill. You either die to ammo issue or do the 15min kiting. You are not even using the effective ways on them, so you enjoy killing scrakes with 1 zerk parring and 3 AA12 spam? Good luck when the 5th scrake spawns.
Its strange that people who cant deal with scrake thinks they are fine huh (some dont even have suicidal wins)? You admit that in the US most team are bad enough for you to even win a game, yet everyone in the US thinks scrakes are fine. What is not fine is everything you are suppose to deal with scrakes work against each other. Parry get cancel by damage, stumble get cancel by damage, EMP means no meleeing. Also, did you realize? We have a dozen types of zed in the game and every team wipe is because of scrake and every wining game is because scrakes are being dealt with, and most of the zed discussions since day one are about scrakes and its fine, fine where? Dev and friends is considered to be one of the most effective group you've seen, yet they dont kill scrakes fast enough with parry locking and resort to stacking EMPs, does that tell you something?
Taking a whole mag of AA12 and still have around half health is not bullet spongy at all. Of cos...did I mention they spawn once every 10 second in long games? That's why people come up with EMP headshots, because they are stupidly tanky without it. You should know better because you are known to play melee zerk. Now how does parry locking works out for you? I mean in a long game where scrakes come one after another, can they actually die before another one reaches you?
There's only 2 tactic I see that can actually deal with scrakes (which wins you the game), kiting for 15 minutes. Or EMP zerk, which means zerks that are not actually meleeing. Both tactics are bad. Kiting is boring as hell, and non-melee zerk is plain stupid, you are only there because you have EMP.
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The population of players that play in the US are barely capable of completing Hard. I'm pretty sure there are barely any stratcrafters for KF2 that play in the US and even if there are, it's impossible to do in a public match due to every single steam guide promoting circle strafing. Look at the Strategies and Tactics part of the forums in the TWI forums, there's 59 threads compared to General and Ideas/Suggestions which have over 1800. You won't see many videos of Zerker being played because it's the hardest to do, like someone said I think in my video thread playing a Zerker seems like it requires a masters in computer science. You said yourself that you have a ridiculously hard time getting headshots on clots/variants and regardless of level it requires 2+ hits. This is dependent on your weapon. I have no problem at all landing headshots with a Crovel and that is my goto for everything Small and Medium ZEDs. I only use the Pulverizer for Scrakes (if absolutely necessary) and FPs. Also what increases survivability is Attack Strength with it's +10 hp per ZT activation and having a commando on the team, if you're taking Menace you're already playing the Melee Zerk incorrectly.
That's the way the majority think and you have to deal with that. I unfortunately am stuck in a position where in my region, any Suicidal games are filled with 4 players that just want to try it out and 1 player that's not just good enough to play HoE but good enough to solo carry 6 man Suicidal trolling everyone in the game. Joining a HoE game presents a team full of medics or teams full of Support. Both of which have their own downsides, team medic being watching a full team of players running from aggro'd scrakes for 10+ minutes because they don't realize it only takes 2-3 nades to aggro them and since they don't have enough firepower after all that running they go and die OR team support which yields 3 people saying hey I'm fully out of ammo after 2 scrakes cause they don't know how to do proper ammo management.
Parry should be used but it's not something that you need to rely on for everything. If I am in a position where I need to parry lock a scrake, I'm not willing to do it without a medic nearby in case I get bad attack rolls. If I can get by without doing it then I will -> EMP + headshots or HSG jumping if everyone is dead. For the Fleshpound, I could care less if there is a Medic nearby or not, each Pulv alt is ripping through ~10% hp and you never get bad attack rolls since all the attack animations have the same parry timing.
Team layout is very important. Even if I just have one Support with me only, everyone else is clearing trash then I have no problem putting faith in the Support. Scrake + FP, we both keep moving back while Support shoots at FP to rage -> FP runs in putting distance between the two -> I bait a jump attack -> Pulv Alt when it lands to stun then move right next to it to hug it -> Pulv alt again, at this point the Support should drop 2 nades and unload on the fp -> I buffer Parry then Pulv alt -> FP rages again -> Depending on where the position of the scrake is and how I feel I may call a backup so we can restart at step 3 and repeat. There's no need to parry both the Scrake and FP, that's just dumb since no matter what you do you're going to get the scrake raged. If it's absolutely a clustereff, then I will try and get all the FP's to come for me and I will either solo take them out with corner traps or at least whittle their HP down to <50%.
The beauty of the US region is that there's always some person that wants to be the hero and do the circle strafe, so in that case I let them and while the rest of the team is standing there like a bunch of idiots unloading onto a stationary target, I go back to the chokepoint and continue clearing trash so that nothing gets to the man circling. That becomes my job when you're playing in the US servers. You get people that can't aim well so they rely on circle strafing but why does that mean I need to stay there and watch? The problem is that teams get overwhelmed so why not just go back and clear trash for them. There's always something that works and personally for me, if at least one other person goes back to clearing trash while I go back to the other lane it works well. Might not be your cup of tea, but that's how I adapted. If I know the team can HS then I Scar Emp. If I know they can't and need to rely on Circles then I just bring the scrake in and go back to clearing trash. When they die and that scrake kills the rest of the team then we can blame him for being a newb, otherwise he gets the full opportunity to say wtf thanks for not clearing me idiots.
Yes, I've been saying since day 1 that it's awful that parry stun and stumbles get cancelled immediately from another damage source but I adapted. I still don't have a consistent Scrake parry lock method when team attacking but FP's can be locked down very easily. Hands down the most effective Scrake killing method is EMP + Rifle stack however letting someone 1v1 can be effective albeit slower. Malahostia mentioned the 3 double boomshots to kill a scrake, this involves circling but if the Support is managing to pull this off 100% of the time then I have no problem letting that be his only job and preventing anything from reaching his 1v1. Also let's adapt off of that. We have a team of 3 supports + 1 Zerk. Zerk parries the initial Scrake attack pulls out a HSG and with the 3 Supports all double boomstick alt for a quick kill. Imagine that? No Emp needed and it's an instant kill. Is that something possible on a public server? Probably not but it's using my creativity to come up with even faster Scrake kills. It's just something that no one has ever tried yet because either no one has thought of bothering to try it since EMP work well enough or it's just something impossible to organize.
Sometimes yes, mostly no. However if I don't take a Scar then like I mentioned above I just go back to clearing trash so the team can focus fire on the scrake. If they can't clear a Scrake via bodyshots then we have an even more serious problem. 4375 if all pellets hit on body. That's about 73%.
Just because you have an EMP doesn't mean that's the only thing you have. There's nothing preventing you from going back to clearing trash, it just means that you're putting faith in your team to clear that Scrake while they are putting faith in you to prevent trash from reaching them. Which is essentially the same thing that I brought up about the 1v1 circling that american's love to do. I have no problem using the Crovel/Pulv layout because the Crovel is way more superior in clearing non-large than the Pulverizer is. This is really why I'm saying that you're not giving the Zerker class enough credit. Like how you pointed out that, "people only theory-craft and praise every official decisions without a second thought.", you're essentially doing the same exact thing. No single class needs to be super efficient at everything, I see a Zerker as excelling at trash clearing and giving proper team support where it's due via EMP or early waves funding. What Devante and friends do with the dual Zerker + Commando setup works extremely well because they all have good aim. I can't do that in public matches because I am the only one nailing headshots. When that's the case I'd rather just clear trash and let someone circle because that works.
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As one the of the people that can be considered in the above group mentioned (hopefully), I agree completely. It takes exceptional players to take on the pressure from the wave along with the clean-cut take downs. If you're missing that essential amount of planning, teamwork and skill, you might as well play cheap tactics since you've lost most of the effective meta in this game at the moment.
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but zerks can run pulverizers. Those do tons of damage to Fleshpounds and, coupled with a couple of Commando nades, takes a Fleshpound right down when gangbanged by Pulverizing zerks. So "EMP" slave really isn't the case.
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And that's the reason why during KF1 in the whole "xbow 1 shot op, 2 shot still op and lets make it 4 shots to kill FP" period I still enjoy my demo/support who can body spam killing everything just about as fast as sharshooters who need dead on head shots. Its simply a lot more effective because I wont have to worry if I miss one shot resulting in my death. (and people keep thinking SS op but not demo/sup for ....reasons?)
Then I must say dont have a ridiculously hard time to head shot clots and friends with melee, just gorefasts. And I dont think clot on the left and clot on the right is decap while the clot in the middle somehow surviving have anything to do with me.
"That's the way the majority think and you have to deal with that."
Yeah, of cos, everyone THINKS they can kill scrake with all that fancy testmap moves. I should deal with that instead of pointing out if doesnt work at all in a real game. I am asking this since day 1, where is the video IN A REAL GAME that shows me how "scrakes are easy to kill with this method and that method so I should learn to play".
There's one thing about adapting to change, I can still think the change is bad. I beat HOE no problem, but I still think scrakes are no fun bullet sponges. You can say I fail to adapt and every game I win is because "I play with pros and get carry". But the fact that all of you basically resorting to kite/circling scrakes basically just proof my point. Fps are never an issue for player who have a brain, even a commando can parry him out of a window or gank him with enough pulv (he has a weakness FFS). Scrakes on the other hand, you admit that you either parry him, which is unreliable even for you, or you (or your teammates) have to circle him. Then again, have fun on the 5th scrake because you only have 4 mag of AA12 and 1 mag cant even kill a scrake. And now the 15 minutes kiting begins.
Then I must say dont have a ridiculously hard time to head shot clots and friends with melee, just gorefasts. And I dont think clot on the left and clot on the right is decap while the clot in the middle somehow surviving have anything to do with me.
"That's the way the majority think and you have to deal with that."
Yeah, of cos, everyone THINKS they can kill scrake with all that fancy testmap moves. I should deal with that instead of pointing out if doesnt work at all in a real game. I am asking this since day 1, where is the video IN A REAL GAME that shows me how "scrakes are easy to kill with this method and that method so I should learn to play".
There's one thing about adapting to change, I can still think the change is bad. I beat HOE no problem, but I still think scrakes are no fun bullet sponges. You can say I fail to adapt and every game I win is because "I play with pros and get carry". But the fact that all of you basically resorting to kite/circling scrakes basically just proof my point. Fps are never an issue for player who have a brain, even a commando can parry him out of a window or gank him with enough pulv (he has a weakness FFS). Scrakes on the other hand, you admit that you either parry him, which is unreliable even for you, or you (or your teammates) have to circle him. Then again, have fun on the 5th scrake because you only have 4 mag of AA12 and 1 mag cant even kill a scrake. And now the 15 minutes kiting begins.
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Because the majority doesn't take the time to learn the ins and outs of the game. You shoot 6 shots from your M32 and it doesn't kill so now you have to reload each nade 1 by 1 and by that time you die vs landing headshots on a xbow. Which one sounds easier? If I didn't know how to play KF1 I'd say xbow sounds more appealing, since all I need to do is land headshots. Now to a more vet player, you'd probably combine M32 spam with a door weld pipe bomb drop -> reload and spam whatever you've reloaded if it's still not dead. The reason why is because you don't understand that casual gamers want the easiest method possible, they don't care to learn to master the game. Take castlevania harmony of despair for example, Soma is the most overplayed character due to ease of access to almost any playstyle combined with the highest DPS. However people that are good at the game look down upon using Valmanways and use the whippers with martial arts. The tricks involved in using martial arts is literally like playing a fighting game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAV2ZHtE_Og - Julius Belmont. Granted this video is done with a macro, many of us in the community including myself can do the Omnia cancel (shiki-kyan) 0:52 in the video at least 5 times in succession on a fairly consistent basis otherwise we'll use the back dash cancel version of it. Point here being that SS was considered OP and Support/Demo wasn't because it wasn't as easy as Sharps with XBow. Same as how I feel Zerker treatment goes right now because Medic is the E-Z mode so no one plays the Zerk.
Headmodel not being in the same horizontal position or your distance to them was too close. In either respect, the melee hit rays (if it's using rays) didn't hit the head.
I see enough people solo circling scrakes in public matches and they either kill or they fail. On occasion I'll see good Supports that can 3 shot decap, so the method works. If you're asking about doing it while there's trash near you then that's the unrealistic expectation of the video. People leave the Scrakes for last and pick them off one by one so that there is nothing nearby. I help the people that can quick kill by keeping trash off of them so we aren't stuck with 6+ scrakes at the end of the wave.
That's fine that you think that scrakes are bullet sponges, all I did was respond to the fact that you were giving off the vibe that Zerkers are EMP slaves to which I responded "you don't give Zerker's enough credit".
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I am just wondering how is scrakes consider to be fine when his presence is significant enough to a point that all tactics are center around scrakes. A lot of spots seems good, but you need to think about what to do when a scrake comes, there goes the potential camping spot. This class combination works pretty well, oh... cant kill scrakes, scratch that.
We have 12 types of zeds FFS... when the whole game become "how to kill scrakes", how do you feel about that?
About the zerk credit thing, yeah, let's see how the rework goes. Right now zerk is really not as effective.
We have 12 types of zeds FFS... when the whole game become "how to kill scrakes", how do you feel about that?
About the zerk credit thing, yeah, let's see how the rework goes. Right now zerk is really not as effective.
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Tactics aren't centered solely around Scrakes...
Did you play KF1? KF1 had the exact same focus on how to take Fleshpounds and Scrakes while dealing with the rest of the trash - the trash was never the focus. The previous game was about taking them down and it's no surprise to see it return in the sequel. In KF1, if your team wasn't able to deal with Scrakes or Fleshpounds on 6 man Hell on Earth, odds are you'd wipe wave 10 to the double Fleshpound and Scrake spawns - if you didn't kite like a scrub.
That hasn't changed. Both Scrakes and Fleshpounds still pose a similar level of threat - with Scrakes just barely being more of one due to the sheer number that they spawn with. Otherwise, Fleshpound's random rage shenanigans along with it's hippity-hopping smash combos still pose the bigger threat on their own.
Zerk isn't just effective - right now it's one of the most important parts of winning on HoE. The usage of EMPs in combination with Commando's SCAR for Scrakes and Pulverizers in combination with Commando's nades for Fleshpounds are very prevalent in games with top players - and it's practically mandatory due to missing perks that would otherwise fill those roles (sharp and demo, presumably).
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Since you are comparing with KF1..... scrakes goes down within one reload from commando even with all body shots. So empty your AK>empty your SCAR works very well and scrakes dont kill you in 3 seconds. Or just have one support stand beside another support, DBS after each other, dead scrake. Hell... even if you are willing to use huge amount of ammo, a firebug can kill scrakes. Now what happens in KF2? People die to scrakes on hard even if they dont stop firing.
What about FPs you may ask, in KF1 they die to a million ways because they are the most dangerous zed and people think of as many ways as possible to not get one-shot by them. Now in KF2 as long as you are backing away, FPs cant do much damage to you because nearly all of his attacks are combos. Backing away means FP wont do full damage to you. Not to mention.... as long as you have a brain you know to use explosive on him, which means you pulv the **** out of the FPs with the limited weapons in game. Because unlike the scrake, FPs have weakness.
You play in JP servers too (or may be only with Dev) but all you will see is FPs die in 5 seconds on basically every server there. Yes, usually the zerker are the one who armed with pulv, but this is basically the only time a zerk really go in melee range with something. Other times, if zerks are meleeing, something is going wrong. Pulv against FP is like shooting the body, you cant miss even if a siren is screaming right beside you, that's why FPs in KF2 are not even close to the threat level of scrakes. They not only go down a lot easier, spawn a lot less, not doing as much damage, but also not wasting most of his time doing the rage animation.
Arguably, pulv gank on FP is a tactic that needs to be developed...... but I only see that as a natural reaction like you nade a room full of zeds or nade after you kill the siren. As you can see, most of the "how to" is about scrakes, not FP. Because FP dont need much studying as people kill them fast and easy enough and FPs dont kill them every game.
Yes, zerk are effective and basically a must have if you camp. What I am saying is zerks are there not because of their ability to close combat like in KF1 (which they were OP, so TWI is too scare to make them OP again). Instead, they are used just because
1) they have a nade that is good for scrake, and
2) happen to have a perked weapon doing explosive damage for FPs.
In those winning games (as I can see you consider kiting noob tactics too), they are there to EMP scrakes and take out the pulv when FP shows up. Other times? Please sit back and shoot with an AR like everyone else, dont block the shots from teammates and draw unnecessary focus from the medic. There is a reason even one of the best groups in JP dont door zerk or parry lock.
These strange meta games (EMP from JP region or circling with kiting in the US region) are developed because of the imbalance of scrakes. If the EMP is support's perk nade instead of zerk, you will not see zerk at all. They will be sup with Pulv.
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I can't comment too much about this since I only played the Zerker in KF1 and I just used the Dwarves!? Axe for both the FP and Scrake to kill without getting hit.
The no threat isn't true. They aren't a threat because the medic heals can keep up as each damage tick have more time between each. If you have 100 hp/0 armor and just keep running back if the FP uses his bear hug or reverse bear hug while raged (in 6 man HoE, in anything less you can outrun everything) then it's an automatic hit which brings you down to about 70. From there no matter how much you run back he will use his close range melee attack and if you're unlucky the jump will hit you twice to bring you down to 10-20. From there it's easy pickings for him. While unraged, Scrakes pose less of a threat.
Watching some JPN matches FPs die immediately because they use a tactic that I've stratcrafted since I figured out what the damage and health values were. 10 combined pulverizer hits between 3 players. If at least one of them are doing headshots then it'll die in 9 combined. However how often is it that you see 2 competent Zerkers in the US region? On occasion I will see Zerkers that know how to properly body block and hold the frontline while the rest of the team is behind them. In that case, as long as the rest of the team members are shooting at the FP/Scrake then they will divert their attention to them and ignore the zerk even though they can't get by said zerker. This works cause the Zerker doesn't need any ammunition and he still has the melee attack speed bonus to clear trash quicker. So not all the time Zerker using a melee =/= something is wrong. It may be the case for you as your regions don't play a melee zerker but here melee zerkers are very much appreciated if they know how to do it.
It doesn't need to be developed, it just needs more exposure so more people do it.
I totally disagree but that's because I have a wide exposure of fully functional rifle teams, fully functional single funnel camp teams, and fully functional kite teams. While I wish I could just say, you losers don't panic cause one Scrake is coming, I don't say that because if they want to kite and it works for them then I will make it work for them by clearing a path for them to run to and then keeping control of the behind mob so that until they get to their next point nothing teleports to them. The best method to do this is with a Zerker cause you can delay via flinch/stun, you have the movement/attack speed bonus and you have unlimited ammo. Out of the three, easiest is definitely just holding one spot the whole game but that only works because you have a team that can aim. Try playing with players that need to unload a full clip of Scar to take out a single medium Zed and tell me to not kite.
There's nothing strange with the first tactic. EMP + Rifle is the easier and more reliable version of Zed Time activation -> Medic Sedative -> headshot spam.
If the EMP goes to Support and Zerker gets the shard nade in the form of some homemade pipebombs then I'll be fine with that because then I have no need to goto the Scrake and I can full time focus on trash clearing which I said previously that they excel in.
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