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Russian ПП-1 type Optical Sight for MG (part 1)

BTW

PP-1 for Maxim machinegun almost same than used for 53-K 45-mm AT gun ;)
45mmsight.jpg


Few pics from 45-mm 53-K AT gun Mod.1937 manual (only links, pics too heavy) Almost same, just different reticle
http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/857243.gif
http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/857245.gif
http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/857247.gif
http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/857249.gif
http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/857251.gif
http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/857253.gif
http://cook.c58.ru/webrunner/857255.gif

On the 45-mm M-42 AT gun Mod.1942 used PP1-3 sight, also almost same, main difference - new reticle. Also used PP9-3 sight, but he is way different.
 
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P.S. BTW, nice item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-German-Tan...ryZ36049QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Unfortunately it exceeds my budget for WW2 collectibles ;) Especially with the shipping costs...

Heh... don't understand big price for one of most typical german sight. Just a panoramic sight for self-propelled gun. Few years ago we are buy No.24 sight for Valentine tank just for $14, good condition. For Comet we are buy No.57 sight for $75. Typical price for ZF 1X11 - 75-100 Euro, just a simple tube... ZF 3X8 (Pak 38, 40, 43, 36(r)) - 100-150 Euro... And SflZF1a - 200-300 euro... I don't understand something in this world...:rolleyes:

P.S. As i said:

ZF 3X8, 4 days left, 200 euro already
http://cgi.ebay.de/Orig-ZIELFERNROH...ryZ15503QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 
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and I haven't had time to hunt through to see if you sent it to me!

I am certain I sent you a report on 17-pdr optics testing -- it was something you were asking after based upon a discussion on another forum -- I think the moving graticule thread. But it's not crucial to the subject matter being discussed here as the report I am thinking of involved British field testing various reticle types for their the 17-pdr gunsight telescope. Sort of an ergonomic assessment with the intent to determine ease of use; what sort aiming errors were associated with each reticle type, etc.

Unfortunately so much of the WWII testing material from places like Aberdeen, Bovington and/or Shoeburyness is catalogued under very non-descript headings. It is not blatantly obvious from some report titles -- like "BRL Report No. AD-893" (or the like) -- what is contained in the materials. Some of these materials have been lost or stolen from Archives.

But I know war time testing of German optical fire control equipment was conducted by Anglo-American proving grounds based upon snippets or a cite I have come across in other unrelated proving grounds reports, field manuals, Foreign equipment studies, etc. etc. It maybe years before I uncover this stuff -- or it may be months. You just never know.

Best Regards
Jeff
 
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Heh...
In Kubinka different situation. In 1992-93 big part of NIIBT archive is been writen off. Most of writen off section - WWII and prewar stuff. Big part of writen off archive has been saved by few peoples, like Mikhail Svirin (now well-known russian WWII AFV historian). As i know, Kubinka archives - copy of central GABTU (russian tank forces center), but access to GABTU archives - real hard work. Also some materials available in different archives, some manuals available from old book sellers. For example, in spring 2007 i buy some parts of Red Army AFVs manuals in Moscow modelling club. One guy from Belorussia sell old archives. T-35 service manual, T-28 service manual, T-26 Mod.1939, BT-2, BT-5, BT-7 (mod.1935 and Mod.1937), KV... BTW, scanned BT-7 manuals still available - one guy from CC ask about BT and T-26 interior on the AFV news forum ;)
http://www.com-central.net/index.ph...topic&t=7816&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
 
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As to the German hand held range finders stock to Tiger-1s, yes there is a bit in Jentz as well as M.Green about Tiger crews training on these instruments and of how Tiger crews had access to these instruments. However, I don’t see these having much practical use in a swirling tank battle, and therefore have my doubts that they were used much in typical tank combat. I think these things would be too unwieldy for the TC to use with the rapidity and urgency required in a tank vs. tank, or tank vs. ATG duel.

Having said that, I can see the advantage of having a hand held Em range finder when developing range cards, or in very long range shoots (say 1500m+) in which range estimation effects on hit probability progressively become the highest proportion of the error budget. But very long range shoots are not currently possible in RO. Now if engagement ranges of 2000m to 3000m within the game environment could realistically be modeled, I’d be very interested in seeing an Em range finder being a standard option to Tiger crews – or ATG crews, etc.

Right, my rangefinders comment for the Tigers was an aside, I was just preaching to the choir, I realize. But really, the Tiger rangefinders I was talking about were the 0,9 M Raumbilds, I meant these:

http://germanmilitaryoptics.wordpress.com/mistaken-identity-the-entfernungmesser-09-m-r-raumbild/

and not the handheld ones I think you're mentioning above, although the EM34 and 36's might also have been used in a scratch. These 0,9's were affixed to the turret via spotweld cross piece which accepted the tripod legs which were then tightened with clamps in front of the TC hatch.

But this conversations gone way past that, by now..LOL...what do you think, time to start a different string....and to think it all was started by a simple Russian AT and MG sight....:eek:
 
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There is a passage in M.Green’s book “Tiger Tanks” (see page 37 and 38) in which he comments on Em17s(?) being used by German Tiger-1 crews. My posts are directed at Tiger-1 crews using the tubular Em range finders. These were apparently discovered by the British in captured Tiger-1s in N.Africa. However, I was not able to find anything on the Em.17 in my quick scan of references on my bookshelves (but than I haven’t come across anything on the Em0,9R yet either -- aside from Jentz). Perhaps Green means Em.14 -- or Em.34? Green shows a photo of a tubular range finder that looks like an Em14 or Em34 on page 38. Was there an Em.17 -- or is this a typo by Green?

Em.14 and 34 were of course available to flak crews, gun and howitzer crews, even MG34 crews apparently had them issued.

Very Interesting material you have collected regarding the Em 0,9R. Thanks for bringing my attention to my error in assuming this was another tubular type device – ala Em.34. We had yakked about the same passage from Jentz years ago on another game forum. I would be very interested in knowing how this thing was supposed to function. Very odd arrangement for a range finder. I guess I had always assumed the horizontal distance between the two end housings in a range finder had to be fixed in order to develop a distance to target. That isn’t really the case with scissors periscopes.

Just an aside, but the US Army tried stereoscopic-rangefinders in the M48 tank (fixed horizontal distance between the Frankenstein-neck bolt like end housings that protrude from the turret sides). But the Army had too many problems training folks on these things. They are apparently more accurate than coincidence range finders – if employed correctly. But a lot of folks apparently don’t have the right sort of vision to be able to employ the things correctly. So the Army went back to Coincidence range finders in its M48s and M60s.

Best Regards
Jeff
 
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Very Interesting material you have collected regarding the Em 0,9R. Thanks for bringing my attention to my error in assuming this was another tubular type device – ala Em.34. We had yakked about the same passage from Jentz years ago on another game forum. I would be very interested in knowing how this thing was supposed to function. Very odd arrangement for a range finder. I guess I had always assumed the horizontal distance between the two end housings in a range finder had to be fixed in order to develop a distance to target. That isn’t really the case with scissors periscopes.
Best Regards
Jeff

Ah, yes, I see it...yes the EM17 shown is a co-incidence type that could be spoofed at long distances (Just ask the British at Jutland) or if the target outline was not easily discerned, but it also didn't need someone with stereo vision to be able to operate it. I also recognized the TZR-1 reference, one I think I remember your comments on another board about. Maybe they mean the Em 0,9, and the US.Army didn't know it's proper nomenclature at the time (shrugs)? I'll bet the co-incidence ones were used out of frustration experienced with the stereo Em 0,9s.

I updated the page at the bottom if you want to go back and look again. I translated the little pamphlet that the OKH had issued along with the device. It might have gone inside the box as the little 'instruction manual', but I'm not 100% certain. It doesn't help terribly much other than how to set it up - I also added the view from the left side without the reticles engaged. ]The device had to be collimated ahead of time and as I remember the owner telling me there were adjustments for distance once you had a specific distance established and then you had to adjust the other side to make sure the stereo-image reticles were in line with each other. The reticle is an upside down arrow and the range number shows up directly below, sort of like a reflected image from another portion of the tube, like the Ems do and it's all perfectly superimposed on the FOV. What the Em 0,9's advantage, supposedly , was to sort of combine the best features of an observational scope with the increased reflective/objective relief of a scissor and the range estimation accuracy of the Em series, but more portable and "high-speed/low-drag" in that it could fold up on the move, and apparently was seen as a good solution for long range battery-type firing for the heavy Pzkpfw battalions. As you adjusted the stalks, a subsequent variance in the level of 'relief' or three dimensional texture of the distant objects could be obtained - much like the SFs, the more spaced, the more relief. I'm guessing that the user may have needed to use more or less relief when viewing an objective and placing the reticle marks and range scale against it, depending on the objective. ..and if the user didn't have stereo vision in his eyes...the whole thing was pointless...he couldn't see the arrow positioned directly above the objective.....My best way to describe it (as described to me) is of looking at a group of houses and selecting just one as your objective...once calibrating in the range (against a known distance calculated from some other reference point), the image of the arrow and the house appear to stand out from the rest of the group - or imagine throwing a softball at a target and the softball stopping to hover in suspension directly above it...and the reading would appear directly underneath. Without ability to see stereo images, it's just a nice set of 14x binoculars...
As good a design it was (was co-opted into the postwar EM-61 for the DDR NVA) it didn't seem to pass the field tests for utility or heat-of-combat-practicality..it was heavy as hell...but I'd certainly like to have one..
 
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Ah, yes, I see it...yes the EM17 shown is a co-incidence type that could be spoofed at long distances (Just ask the British at Jutland) or if the target outline was not easily discerned, but it also didn't need someone with stereo vision to be able to operate it. I also recognized the TZR-1 reference, one I think I remember your comments on another board about. Maybe they mean the Em 0,9, and the US.Army didn't know it's proper nomenclature at the time (shrugs)? I'll bet the co-incidence ones were used out of frustration experienced with the stereo Em 0,9s.

I updated the page at the bottom if you want to go back and look again. I translated the little pamphlet that the OKH had issued along with the device. It might have gone inside the box as the little 'instruction manual', but I'm not 100% certain. It doesn't help terribly much other than how to set it up - I also added the view from the left side without the reticles engaged. ]The device had to be collimated ahead of time and as I remember the owner telling me there were adjustments for distance once you had a specific distance established and then you had to adjust the other side to make sure the stereo-image reticles were in line with each other. The reticle is an upside down arrow and the range number shows up directly below, sort of like a reflected image from another portion of the tube, like the Ems do and it's all perfectly superimposed on the FOV. What the Em 0,9's advantage, supposedly , was to sort of combine the best features of an observational scope with the increased reflective/objective relief of a scissor and the range estimation accuracy of the Em series, but more portable and "high-speed/low-drag" in that it could fold up on the move, and apparently was seen as a good solution for long range battery-type firing for the heavy Pzkpfw battalions. As you adjusted the stalks, a subsequent variance in the level of 'relief' or three dimensional texture of the distant objects could be obtained - much like the SFs, the more spaced, the more relief. I'm guessing that the user may have needed to use more or less relief when viewing an objective and placing the reticle marks and range scale against it, depending on the objective. ..and if the user didn't have stereo vision in his eyes...the whole thing was pointless...he couldn't see the arrow positioned directly above the objective.....My best way to describe it (as described to me) is of looking at a group of houses and selecting just one as your objective...once calibrating in the range (against a known distance calculated from some other reference point), the image of the arrow and the house appear to stand out from the rest of the group - or imagine throwing a softball at a target and the softball stopping to hover in suspension directly above it...and the reading would appear directly underneath. Without ability to see stereo images, it's just a nice set of 14x binoculars...
As good a design it was (was co-opted into the postwar EM-61 for the DDR NVA) it didn't seem to pass the field tests for utility or heat-of-combat-practicality..it was heavy as hell...but I'd certainly like to have one..

Thanks for the in depth mlespaul, and for the translated bits of the field manual.

On the TZR-1 -- and I'm going off my memory cells here -- but I thought perhaps Green was in error about this instrument. I think it was some sort of tall observation periscope that the TC could erect from his position in the cupola. Sort of like a submarine periscope that the TC could use while the tank was in a complete turret defilade position. But perhaps you have better info on this thing.

Best Regards
Jeff
 
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I think both you guys have my war-time pieces from MCS (Shrivenham) on "enemy equipment... ?

No. Don't have that one. However, I have period TMs on various German optical fire control instruments issued by the US Army. Instruments for flak and artillery -- nothing as I recall for panzers. I just haven't had the desire to find which one of my three ring binders I stored these things ;) Some day I'll get organized.

Jeff
 
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No. Don't have that one. However, I have period TMs on various German optical fire control instruments issued by the US Army. Instruments for flak and artillery -- nothing as I recall for panzers. I just haven't had the desire to find which one of my three ring binders I stored these things ;) Some day I'll get organized.

Jeff
Apologies - I'll send samples over! I have some of the US Army stuff on Flak and Artillery buried away, too. Probably the same documents!
 
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Thanks for the in depth mlespaul, and for the translated bits of the field manual.

On the TZR-1 -- and I'm going off my memory cells here -- but I thought perhaps Green was in error about this instrument. I think it was some sort of tall observation periscope that the TC could erect from his position in the cupola. Sort of like a submarine periscope that the TC could use while the tank was in a complete turret defilade position. But perhaps you have better info on this thing.

Best Regards
Jeff

Ahh yes- now I remember your string. Green was in error, he was referring to the TSR-1 or Turm-Sehror 1, basically the same SR for the bunkers but slightly modified for use within a turret. Same design, same operation - basic tube thing. The bunkeroptik versions had a teilkreis assembly to help with the directional reference for the user, like an azimuth..and it kept the reference point locked in when wildly rotating about (I imagine). I'm pretty sure it was 2.5x and had a FOV of 15deg, as did most of the SRs.
I'll bet the SR 4 below looked the same as SR1/TSR1. Leitz made a lot of these.
sr4pi3.jpg


- but the overall design is the same- The tube extentions just were added and locked into place with the ribbed collars.

Best design IMO for co-opting a bunkeroptik to an armor application was the T.RBlF 3 for the Puma based on the Pz.RblF 5 series, with the clock face dial reticles ;). Took me awhile to figure it out for the DH guys....but eventually, when you start seeing these things in your sleep, once in a while the images click together.
 
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Thanks mlespaul. I had come a cross a photo of a Tiger-1 employing what I think is a TZR-1 periscope. I will try to find it again and post it here.

As an aside, it occured to me that I don't think I have ever come across a photo of a crew from a Tiger-1 using an Em0,9R -- or I suppose any Panzer crew. The end housings of the Em0,9R are rather different looking (much larger and rectangular) than the standard scissors periscope, so it should be easy enough to distinguish between the two. There are lots of photos of various Panzer crews using SF type scissors periscopes (for example the icon at the bottom of your forum posts is almost certainly standard SF type scissors periscope sticking out of a Tiger cupola).

I have also never come across a photo of a Panzer crew using an Em14 or Em34. The only non-internet reference I think I have seen to their use is M.Green. I did come across a photo of a PzKw MkIV in N.Africa (I think), with what looks like a carrying case for an Em.34, but I can't be sure the object is actually a range finder case.

That old thread on the CM forum was sort of geared toward trying to find photographic evidence of Panzer crews using things like scissors periscopes, TZR-1, Em range finders etc.

Best Regards
Jeff
 
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Thanks mlespaul. I had come a cross a photo of a Tiger-1 employing what I think is a TZR-1 periscope. I will try to find it again and post it here.

Cool, I'd like to see it. I have what I think is a schematic of a SR-1 but with hand control stalks that were stock for the bunkers.

As an aside, it occured to me that I don't think I have ever come across a photo of a crew from a Tiger-1 using an Em0,9R -- or I suppose any Panzer crew. The end housings of the Em0,9R are rather different looking (much larger and rectangular) than the standard scissors periscope, so it should be easy enough to distinguish between the two. There are lots of photos of various Panzer crews using SF type scissors periscopes (for example the icon at the bottom of your forum posts is almost certainly standard SF type scissors periscope sticking out of a Tiger cupola).

and neither have I, in all honesty. I always look for the 0,9 evidence on pictures, but it never shows up in any. Must have been so impractical they just simply kept them in their boxes all the time, a shame because from what past owners have told me, it's a really wondrous piece of equipment and they often regret having traded them away.
I do know, however, that these were only built for a very short time, and mfg'd only by Zeiss, from early/mid 1943 on, so not many were in the inventory or circulation, anyway.

I have also never come across a photo of a Panzer crew using an Em14 or Em34. The only non-internet reference I think I have seen to their use is M.Green. I did come across a photo of a PzKw MkIV in N.Africa (I think), with what looks like a carrying case for an Em.34, but I can't be sure the object is actually a range finder case.

If you show me a picture of the case, I can verify it for you.


I'm now starting to see coming up for sale Italian Galileo 3 M 1 hand-held rangefinders in various militaria trader forums that are from the same timeframe and theater of operations. Knockoffs of the the Stereo EMs, these 'telemetro's appear to be 8x and 20 FOV.
 
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