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PPSh-41 Recoil

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PPSh-41 Recoil

  • PPSH-41 Recoil should be Lessened

    Votes: 140 59.3%

  • PPSH-41 Recoil is Fine

    Votes: 73 30.9%

  • PPSH-41 Recoil should be Increased

    Votes: 23 9.7%
  • Total voters
    236
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#81
[Mad_Murdock] said:
There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around about PPSh accuracy, now i'm not gonna call any names here, but 25-50 yards?

If you can prove this i may take it into consideration, but all the sources ive come across say the PPSh was accurate out to about 200-250 yards rather than 25, thats a difference of about 175.

Now i can back this up with a few simple observations:

A pistol cartridge fired from a pistol, would be accurate out to 25-50 yards yes, this pistol being a light weapon with a barrel of maybe 6 inches(15.5cm) long.

Now given that shorter barrels = less accuracy we can proceed.

The PPSh's barrel is roughly 10.6 inches long, a bit longer than a thompson's(now i never see anyone refuting thompson accuracy), and considerably longer than the 6(if that) on the pistol.

Therefore we can assume the gun is more accurate by default, by virtue of barrel length, add to that the comparative weight of the guns and you have a small artillery piece.

Besides the 7.62x25 isn't exactly a pistol round, its small yes but its a necked cartridge which = higher velocity = flatter trajectory = more accuracy at range. For more info compare to modern P90 SMG.

Therefore the PPSh is in no way a shotgun, and does not deserve anything like an accuracy reduction already being the least accurate by game mechanics.

QED

Damn, i think i just wrote a thesis...
Click to expand...

Nope, a thesis requires facts. You have presented none.

Well I will tell you what, come out to the range with me and Ill take my my Tokarev pistol for you to try and Ill even pay to let the rangemaster rent a 9mm carbine for you to try at 100 yards. And we will see if you hit anything.

I shoot every chance I get. When was the last time you shot anything?

Yes there is a lot of miss-information. Just MY point. Do you shoot? He-Said She-Said does not count.

Pistol rounds only have so much energy and they loose that energy quickly over range. This is why large rifle rounds were developed.

Either go to the range or read some balistics reports if you want concrete facts.
Getting your data from some gamers who have never shot a weapon in their life will not help you get to the facts.

Throw into the fray the fact that most conscripts were poorly trained and the PPSHs were roughly manufactured and I personally would not feel on the loosing end with a K98k 100yards away from a ppsh armed conscript.

Now at 25-50yards and in an urban and city fighting map I would be worried.
 
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#82
First to a previous post, i never said the 200m range was effective bullseye, i said you can hit something there by pointing the gun at it.

Now for Gonzo here, do I shoot? Yes, as a matter of fact i do.

Now you on the other hand do realize that you are comparing a pistol to a submachinegun right?

PPSh drop + velocity, is nothing like a TT drop + velocity. YOu should know this if youve shot that carbine you mention.

Personally, if you want a light bullet comparison, how about a Ruger 10/22 carbine, at 100 yards, suits me fine, thats a round bullet with about the same barrel length as a PPSh and even less velocity, does fine.
 
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#83
So what? You don't think I know that?

Only reason I would bring the pistol is because i do not have a carbine that shoots 7.62x25. Few ppl do. But at least bringing the pistol would give you a clue as to it's power comparison to my 8mm K98k or Mosin.

Bullet drop is bullet drop no matter what you shoot it out of. You will never make a rifle out of a pistol cartridge now matter how hard you fantasize about it.

And if you own a 10/22 then you should know that 22LR starts to drop at 100yards as well.

You can go on believing anything you want to believe. But until I see some actual facts I will stand my what I said about the PPSH out to 100 yards.

Fact is, I would be more worried about your 10/22 than a PPSH out at that range.
 
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#85
Lifes too short for this kind of thing.

I see where you're coming from on this one, but i think i'm gonna have to stick to most of my opinion. As for how this is reflected ingame i dont know, its hard to tell if the accuracy is spot on or not when the gun jerks around like youre shooting 20mms.

I mean, i don't really have much to disagree with you about, but i think we kinda drifted off topic with the accuracy here, mebbe we'd be able to see better if the recoil was fixed, i dunno.

Thoughts?
 
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#86
The absence of (lead) devs in this thread, even to attempt to dispute the PPSh nerfing, by itself is telling you their mindsets. They think money. RO:O can't be too hard, too realistic.

*edit* Yeah that or Ramm had very, very, very weak arms the day he fired that weapon and consequently modelled the recoil according to his experience. ;)
 
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#88
Well Mad Murdock is right. Life is too short to argue about this.

Developers will do what they want with it anyway.

At least most of us agree that the recoil on many of the weapons is way overdone. The PPSH is the worst though.

The only reason some of us are so passionate about the subject is because we love the fact that we finally have a game that actually attempts to be realistic and historical. Nobody has come this close.

And we all love the game. That's why we are here.

This thead has taken the usual course like all the other recoil threads with the same result: The recoil will still be there.

All we can do is gripe about it so im unsubscribing from this thread...until the next one ;-)
 
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#93
Amen

I admit i did my share of pouting and arguing, but i guess we all come to an agreement, and end up the better for it. Wow, if more things in life were like this forum....

errr, on the other hand, now that i think about it, i think the world is fine.

But yeah, i'm done too, glad for the discussion though. (Well played Gonzo, lol, well played)

See you all next time.
 
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#94
Just a quick comment from me before this thread dies.

Personally, my reasoning for thinking the recoil is too heavy on the SMGs (in particular the PPSH) is that is is easier to control while hipping. If I get into a fight and don't have a nearby wall or obstacle to brace against I won't use the sights on the SMGs because its basically pointless.

If the recoil was in anyway reasonable, this simply won't be the case; aiming your weapon should ALWAYS make it easier to aim and control.

Sod realism for a moment - this is a really basic gameplay issue for me and many of the people I know who play and we avoid SMGs like the plague even when they should be really useful.
 
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#95
My last post here too. When i see other players using a SMG or full auto rifles it's mostly for hipshooting. Like GaGrin says, there not much advantage in using the sights anyway.

I played on a clanserver the other day, the [ SS-something] clan, i was making comments on their hipshooting which happened a lot. They told me their clan trains a lot of hipshooting the smg's / automatic rifles. That alone says enough about RO's flaws.
 
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#97
I think - from the realism aspect - the barrel climb is way too high. It's a small cartridge fired from heavy gun. Even at high rate of fire it should be very easy to control. Especially with short bursts I'd imagine the barrel climb to be non existant.

However, from the gameplay aspect, I'm not sure. It's probably the most effective weapon for close quarters combat on many occasions - a real trench broom. From long range, even while supported it's got no say against rifles. That's how it should be. Despite that, I voted for reducing the recoil. Perhaps there is some other way of balancing out the weapons.

One solution is reducing the SMG accuracy while supported. I think there should be some barrel climb, even while supported. Other idea would be to add some level of lateral sway to the gun while firing. Whatever the best solution might be, I think it should be tested on the upcoming patch.
 
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#98
I think the PPSh recoil is fine the way it is. I just counter the climb by pulling the weapon downwards with my mouse. Just like how you should be doing it in real life, so i think it's fine just the way TWI did it.

If you don't fight the barrel climb then your inaccuracy is your fault, your soldier doesn't automaticly do it.
 
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#99
Murphy said:
We don't need balanced weapons!
Its not like in UT2004 where someone with a Biorifle should be as dangerous as someone with a Rocketlauncher and if he is not balancing fixes have to be made.
The balance in RO isn't a man-with-a-gun vs. man-with-a-gun balance, but a team vs. team balance. So if there is a super strong weapon, it is simply limited so only one or two people per team can take it.

If the ppsh mutates to some sort of mini-mg as soon as the recoil is lowered, so be it. We want the weapons to be realistic. Not balanced. If this move really throws off the balance so the russian side is suddenly much stonger than the German one, then the ppsh has to be limited further, or the Russian reinforcement points have to lowered, or the timelimits for the maps have to be changed.
There are a number of ossible balancing methods, but giving weapons anything but real world stats shouldn't be among them.
Click to expand...


There are a few problems with your argument. How can you limit something like the PPSh which was so rampantly available? You can't limit it to one or two people, when whole regiments and divisions were armed with nothing but them. Also if you want "real world stats", they it should already have the 35 round magazine. They were available as early as 1942, and there was definitely more of them around than the drums.
 
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