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PPSh-41 Recoil

PPSh-41 Recoil

  • PPSH-41 Recoil should be Lessened

    Votes: 140 59.3%
  • PPSH-41 Recoil is Fine

    Votes: 73 30.9%
  • PPSH-41 Recoil should be Increased

    Votes: 23 9.7%

  • Total voters
    236
@http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/member.php?u=4069: Limiting the weapon is only one of the possible methods. And even that one is more realistic than having a weapon that doesn't behave like its real life counterpart. What is there and what not can be explained by resource shortage or something. Broken weapons cannot.
There are other ways to balance the game though, like changing the time limit for maps so the attacks have more or less time making it easier or harder for the defenders. Or the team that would be at a disadvantage could gain a boost in capping speed, or more advancing spawnpoints. Maybe even more cover for their routes or additional vehicles for them if there are vehicles on the map. Limiting the weapons is just one of many many methods.

And yes, the stick mags should be in the game too. The first mag, the soldier starts out with should be a drum mag and the others should be stick mags. However it could be an engine limitation so it doesn't allow for different mags for one and the same weapon.
 
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And yes, the stick mags should be in the game too. The first mag, the soldier starts out with should be a drum mag and the others should be stick mags. However it could be an engine limitation so it doesn't allow for different mags for one and the same weapon.

Nope, definately not an engine limitation, Infiltration was doing it years ago on the UT99 engine, it can be done, it just has to be coded in.
 
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PPSh-41: 480 m/s
TT33: 420 m/s (87.5%)

Does that difference translate into a eight or even TEN times increase in effective range (like mentioned here) ??? I highly doubt it.

While the MP40 fires at 365 m/s. Enough said.

Point 2...

Nope, a thesis requires facts. You have presented none.

Well I will tell you what, come out to the range with me and Ill take my my Tokarev pistol for you to try and Ill even pay to let the rangemaster rent a 9mm carbine for you to try at 100 yards. And we will see if you hit anything.

I shoot every chance I get. When was the last time you shot anything?

Yes there is a lot of miss-information. Just MY point. Do you shoot? He-Said She-Said does not count.

Pistol rounds only have so much energy and they loose that energy quickly over range. This is why large rifle rounds were developed.

Either go to the range or read some balistics reports if you want concrete facts.
Getting your data from some gamers who have never shot a weapon in their life will not help you get to the facts.

Throw into the fray the fact that most conscripts were poorly trained and the PPSHs were roughly manufactured and I personally would not feel on the loosing end with a K98k 100yards away from a ppsh armed conscript.

Now at 25-50yards and in an urban and city fighting map I would be worried.

Err, congratz I'm glad you go shooting but that does not proove you know anything about the ppsh. Now, the Mosin and the Kar are both counter parts. Difference is that the Kar fires a larger bullet and the Mosin has a longer barrel. Which is more accurate? The Mosin, for its longer barrel which gives it a higher velocity. Same with the SMGs.

What you say about losing to a PPSh when you have a rifle and are 100yards away from the enemy maybe absolutely correct, but the PPSh did stand a chance at a standing target at that range. Crouching and Proning will reduce the PPsh's effectiveness at you and being behind cover does too. It shouldn't completely disable the fact that you are still able to kill at a range of 100m. Most reports I've read said that the PPSh is still very effective at targets 200m away, especially when they're in numbers. Ingame we can show this that, if your within that certain range with a PPSh, and you are behind cover with a rifle, you're superior. If you dont have cover and are standing, your screwed.

http://www.world.guns.ru/smg/smg02-e.htm

http://www.world.guns.ru/smg/smg03-e.htm
 
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UT99 uses the UnrealEngine 1 as far as I know. UnrealEd 2.0, right?
That's different engine and what is possile there doesn't have to be possible in RO.
Do you drop all your ammo in INF if you drop your weapon?

I'm not saying its an engine limitation, I'm just saying it could be one.

U-script is U-script, a few things have been relocated and a few things modified a bit, and more has been added, but that just means you have to code things differently, not that things that used to be possible nolonger are.
Atleast i have yet to encounter any reports of that.

Infact 2.5 has native support for more than one ammo type, that used to be a real head scratcher with the old Unreal engine (it was doable, Chaos-UT and INF is plenty proof of that), its gotten easier to work with ammo.


And infact, we pretty much allready have whats needed in RO, the code is plenty modular to pull it off, and it doesen't even have to be anything fancy like INF's overly complicated attachmnet system, it can be done by simply animating it, and then let code decide which reload animation should be called upon.
Lesser games and mods have pulled it off in the past, TWI could certainly do it if they really want to.
 
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Ok, thank you for posting that.
This is definately something that would seperate RO even further from the likes of CoD and it would add another "wow this is detailed"-moment on a newbie's eyes (and veteran's ones too) and if you say it can be done - and I believe you - it should be done.
Not only would it be more realistic, it would also "balance" a recoil-decrease, because only the first mag would be 70something round and all the others would be almost MP40esque (not a word...).
 
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Ok, thank you for posting that.
This is definately something that would seperate RO even further from the likes of CoD and it would add another "wow this is detailed"-moment on a newbie's eyes (and veteran's ones too) and if you say it can be done - and I believe you - it should be done.
Not only would it be more realistic, it would also "balance" a recoil-decrease, because only the first mag would be 70something round and all the others would be almost MP40esque (not a word...).

My point exactly, but it goes beyond that, the whole way recoil is used to balance is just plain poor design.. its creating more problems than its trying to solve.

Whats the big problem with SMG's in a WWII shooter? its run'n-gun Rambo'ing! thats what ruins a game like CoD, but it is also ruining RO at the moment, because the steps taken to avoid it are not working, quite the opposite infact! since the SMG's are so horrid, most players opt to get as clouse as possible to the enemy and just spray them wildly from the hip.

What RO needs is movement jiggle (TM), when you run, your whole body is set in motion, including anything you hold between your hands, try shooting whilst on the move and you will hit in a wide, somewhat random figure 8 pattern, thats why people dont do it in real life (or atleast only as a desperate attempt to keep heads down), you just wont hit a bloody thing.
Not so in RO however, the gun stays 100% stable whilst running.

So, in order to discourage us from Run'n-gun tactics, they have given us an insane recoil from the hip (and when standing and aimed, for some reason..), thats just not a good solution to the problem, as it punishes the player regardless of what he's doing, instead of only when he's doing something stupid.

If they just put movement jiggle (TM) in, then SMG's could be made much more realistic without giving players a free pass to do stupid Rambo stuff, we've seen it in other games, it actually works! it forces players to stop before they shoot and thats exactly what we need.


Allrigt then, now some might be thinking "Yeah that could work, but still, if you made the SMG's better, then even if they wont be Run'n-gun monsters, the riflemen wont have a prayer!", but again there is a remarkably simple solution.. make aiming realistic! it does not take 2 to 3 bloody seconds to raise a rifle and shoot someone 5 meters away, it can be done in a split second!

Let us raise our weapons fast, but take a second or two to align the sights (this can be animated, and then the game code tells the weapon it has more cone fire than normal untill a timer runs out, real simple like, no need for advanced server crashing code here), subtle stuff this, but with just a bit more temporary conefire, you can allow the rifleman to hit a nearby target (say 10 meters away) quickly, but he would certainly miss a target thats 100 meters away if he didn't allow the sights to properly allign.


Thats whats at the heart of this whole affair, poor design, its all well intended, but its too artificial to work realistically.
 
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I also agree with Grobut.

My one man tirade against TWI, how insignificant and driven by emotions as much as knowledge, has only lead to warnings and possible infractions at the forum. RO's poor design and poor attitude of lead coder(s) lead me to believe there will never be a change unless a mutator to change it all is released. This mutator must adress all realism options in an agressive way and pursue nothing but realism on all fronts.
Also, if ever this mutator was to be coded, i would vote for no weapon class restrictions. I don't care much for historical correctness.
 
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I also agree with Grobut.

My one man tirade against TWI, how insignificant and driven by emotions as much as knowledge, has only lead to warnings and possible infractions at the forum. RO's poor design and poor attitude of lead coder(s) lead me to believe there will never be a change unless a mutator to change it all is released. This mutator must adress all realism options in an agressive way and pursue nothing but realism on all fronts.
Also, if ever this mutator was to be coded, i would vote for no weapon class restrictions. I don't care much for historical correctness.

One man? Not really. :p
For we are many.

Well we do not have yurch here. :(
 
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This mutator must adress all realism options in an agressive way and pursue nothing but realism on all fronts.
Also, if ever this mutator was to be coded, i would vote for no weapon class restrictions. I don't care much for historical correctness.

You want a mutator that strives for nothing but realism, but then you state you don't really care for historical correctness? Contradiction, anyone?
 
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You want a mutator that strives for nothing but realism, but then you state you don't really care for historical correctness? Contradiction, anyone?
My thoughts were brief, let me explain.
Realism in weapon handling, movement, penetration and such that simulate the soldier's war enviroment if you will. My interests lie there.
RO's Historical correctness limits classes / loadouts, that fact i do not value. (Just as long as we're not equipping the soldiers with modern weapons.)
 
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Well for testing purposes imagine no limit for soldiers classes. Some people will choose bolt action, some scope, some semi, some smg. It's not like everybody will run around with a mp-40 suddenly.

I understand the hardcore historically fanatics in RO's community. This mutator, which isn't even going to be coded anyway, wouldn't be for them. ;)
 
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