PPSh-41 Recoil

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PPSh-41 Recoil

  • PPSH-41 Recoil should be Lessened

    Votes: 140 59.3%
  • PPSH-41 Recoil is Fine

    Votes: 73 30.9%
  • PPSH-41 Recoil should be Increased

    Votes: 23 9.7%

  • Total voters
    236

LordKhaine

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 19, 2005
1,008
120
0
UK
The thing that annoys me most is the standing recoil. While crouched recoil is a little excessive but it's doable. But standing... utterly impossible to shoot anything past 10 metres. I see no reason for aimed standing recoil to be more than crouched recoil.

It totally skews how an smg'er approaches the game. I find my playing style dominated by avoiding places where I can't get a clear shot without crouching. How is that realistic?
 

GonzoX

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 6, 2006
708
0
0
home.roadrunner.com
Sure PPSh recoil is realisticwise very 'unrealistic', but then this is just a game and it's just one way TWI has made some ingame balance among the weapons.

This horse has already been beat to death.

The fix is easy.

Reduce recoil to what it really was in WWII (in the game). You can keep the game ballance by simply making the weapon less accurate. As it is now, it is a sniper weapon with bad recoil.

Justy switch the two around and you solve the problem in a more realistic way and make both camps happy with the fix IMHO.
 
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Sigurd

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 10, 2007
268
11
0
IMHO the recoil of the MP40 should be reduced a little and the PPsh recoil reduced to the current MP40 level.

Then the PPsh gets it IRL advantage. (more bullets while the MP40 is a little more accurate on single shots / bursts)
 

Plaid13

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 22, 2006
532
0
0
The ppsh was known for being easy to control and its accuracy at long range do to the longer barrel it had when compaired to the other smgs of the war. so reducing its accuracy isnt the answer. The only advantages the mp40 had over the ppsh was it was lighter and shorter so easier to move around in tight spaces and its round was a slightly larger caliber so each bullet would hit a little harder. since weight and movement isnt factored in in the game i would say the best way to really balance it would be the damage it does. so the ppsh would take 2 or 3 hits to the chest instead of 1-2 to kill with or whatever it would be. but it should be more accurate and have less recoil. This was a fairly large heavy weapon and shot a fairly small round. Its recoil was the easiest to control among the sub machine guns of the war.

Just my personal opinion but i think the game would be best if all of the weapons were as realistic as possible. That way they would balance themself out. all the guns in the game are very lethal and one hit in the chest with any of them would take someone out of combat. but for that to be done there would need to be bleed damage. that way a single shot in the gut wont always put you down instantly but it would still stop you from fighting after a min or two. where a shot in the spine or heart would stop you in one hit instantly. or say three shots in the gut would put you down right away. But for everything to really balance right they would need to compensate for weight diffrences by doing things like making people with heavy weapons use stamina faster while sprinting and jumping. and by adding in weapon colision so you cant stick a gun through the wall.
 

[Mad_Murdock]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 28, 2006
604
44
0
Fully agree with the previous post. In fact as it stands, the hitcone(IE the bullet spread, an accuracy factor you cant control) is higher on the PPSh than on any other weapon, so technically its nerfed in both recoil AND accuracy.

As for me, i say take it to realism, and if that makes it a killer, well, gee thats too bad, i kinda thought that was idea of making a good weapon...

I do see the damage thing as a possible balance solution, but dont take it too far or we'll have a BF2 style PPSh damage system and you'd have to spray someone for hours before they die.
 

Plaid13

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 22, 2006
532
0
0
yeah it should only be like 10% less damage then the mp40 But it should also have selective fire. All these little details are what makes the game so much less realistic then it should be. really subtracts from the game as a whole.
 

GonzoX

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 6, 2006
708
0
0
home.roadrunner.com
The ppsh was known for being easy to control and its accuracy.

I disagree.

Known for it's accuracy? :confused: Out to what range?

I think people are completely forgetting that it uses a pistol round. :rolleyes:
This is one of the reasons it was low on recoil and made for close-in work.

Any SMG is a spray and pray weapon like a shotgun. It should not and could not be used as a long range sniping weapon in real life and this should be translated into the game. As-is though it is being used for longer ranges in-game than is historically realistic and this kills imersivness IMO. I wonder if this is the reason that the single shot selector version was not modeled.

Yes, it may have been accurate out to something like 25 to 50 yards but at about 100 yards any pistol round will start to A)Drop, B)Deviate and most importantly C)Lose it's terminal balistics usefullness.

Another option is to make the thing jam as it did this quite often in real life. That would not go over well with most RO players though. I say again, the best most workable option is to lessen the accuracy and reduce recoil to realistic. IMHO this would make most folks happy and still keep the game withing a realistic mode without killing gameplay for bolters etc.
 

A-tree

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 3, 2006
370
11
0
UK
I disagree.
Another option is to make the thing jam as it did this quite often in real life. That would not go over well with most RO players though.
Gah? I thought it had a reputation for being very reliable.
 

GonzoX

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 6, 2006
708
0
0
home.roadrunner.com
Gah? I thought it had a reputation for being very reliable.

Not really. The drum mags were very unreliable. In fact each drum mag had to be hand fitted to each SMG because manufacturing tolerances were very rough and varying. If you took out a drum mag from one PPSH, there was no guarantee that it would function or even lock into another PPSH.

This is why the Russians switched to box magazines towards the end of war.

At least they were more reliable than Stens. And we all know about the Sten's reputation. :D
 

Dheepan

FNG / Fresh Meat
It jammed if there was more than 65 rounds in the drum, with the box it was pretty much jam free.

Soldiers who carried the ppsh had 1 drum and then 5 box magazines, this isn't seen in RO. Also the majority of the ppsh's in the war had selective-fire, again not in RO.

The ppsh should have low recoil because it fired a pistol round and had a fairly long barrel, longer than the mp40 which in game has LESS recoil. Doesn't make too much sense.

It's just artificial balancing, just like how the semi rifles have a lot of recoil.
 

GonzoX

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 6, 2006
708
0
0
home.roadrunner.com
No Sir, I think that is wrong.

The box magazine replaced the drum for a reason. AFAIK, red sodiers were not issued box magazines along with a drum. It just didn't happen. The box mag was a fix to a known problem. That's not to say that they didn't carry both and trade for a drum or vice-versa. Even modern Russian Army traded for 40rnd mags for their AKs etc.

I do however agree 100% with you about the games over the top recoil. It really needs to be fixed. The gameplay issue can be addressed in other ways.

But the PPSH is not the only one that suffers from over-the-top recoil. Most of the SA and FA weapons in RO do.
 

melipone

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 22, 2006
1,672
259
0
How many smg's should there be compared to bolts? If they made them more realistic, you could just have fewer of them I suppose.
 

RedRaccoon

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 18, 2007
67
0
0
Ontario, Canada
Plaid13 said:
all the guns in the game are very lethal and one hit in the chest with any of them would take someone out of combat. but for that to be done there would need to be bleed damage. that way a single shot in the gut wont always put you down instantly but it would still stop you from fighting after a min or two. where a shot in the spine or heart would stop you in one hit instantly. or say three shots in the gut would put you down right away.

This to me sounds like a good idea. Has it ever been suggested previously?
 

Ralfst3r

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
3,041
293
0
37
The Netherlands
It jammed if there was more than 65 rounds in the drum, with the box it was pretty much jam free.

Soldiers who carried the ppsh had 1 drum and then 5 box magazines, this isn't seen in RO. Also the majority of the ppsh's in the war had selective-fire, again not in RO.

The ppsh should have low recoil because it fired a pistol round and had a fairly long barrel, longer than the mp40 which in game has LESS recoil. Doesn't make too much sense.

It's just artificial balancing, just like how the semi rifles have a lot of recoil.

Agreed.
 

[Mad_Murdock]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 28, 2006
604
44
0
There seems to be a lot of misinformation floating around about PPSh accuracy, now i'm not gonna call any names here, but 25-50 yards?

If you can prove this i may take it into consideration, but all the sources ive come across say the PPSh was accurate out to about 200-250 yards rather than 25, thats a difference of about 175.

Now i can back this up with a few simple observations:

A pistol cartridge fired from a pistol, would be accurate out to 25-50 yards yes, this pistol being a light weapon with a barrel of maybe 6 inches(15.5cm) long.

Now given that shorter barrels = less accuracy we can proceed.

The PPSh's barrel is roughly 10.6 inches long, a bit longer than a thompson's(now i never see anyone refuting thompson accuracy), and considerably longer than the 6(if that) on the pistol.

Therefore we can assume the gun is more accurate by default, by virtue of barrel length, add to that the comparative weight of the guns and you have a small artillery piece.

Besides the 7.62x25 isn't exactly a pistol round, its small yes but its a necked cartridge which = higher velocity = flatter trajectory = more accuracy at range. For more info compare to modern P90 SMG.

Therefore the PPSh is in no way a shotgun, and does not deserve anything like an accuracy reduction already being the least accurate by game mechanics.

QED

Damn, i think i just wrote a thesis...
 

KrazyKraut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
1,848
69
0
Beer capital of the world
MP40 and PPSh-41 fire different rounds. That alone renders any barrel comparison useless. For example the French 8mm rifles (barrel length 800mm) had less accuracy than the 7.5mm rifles (580mm) that replaced them. The 7.62 Tokarev is a significantly hotter round than the 9mm Parabellum, thus it needs more barrel length to use its stronger load effectively (i.e. not burning powder outside of the barrel).

In any case, the difference in length is something like 17-18mm. The PPSh-41's barrel is less than 7% longer than that of the MP40. So, considering that both fire a round-nosed bullet from an open bolt, any speculation about "more accuracy from a longer barrel" is purely academic.

What makes the PPSh-41 the preferrable weapon over longer distances is the flatter trajectory of the 7.62mm TT. But really, the difference is not even nearly as big as some here make it out to be. It's not like the PPSh fires a small rifle round. Balistically, both guns have much more in common than they have not. Whenever I see this "200m effective range" stuff about the Shpagin pop up here or there I can't help but laugh: Even an M1 Carbine can barely be used "effectively" at those ranges, let alone a submachinegun.

Manufacturing tolerances for both gun and ammunition also play a significant role when it comes to accuracy and the PPSh was known for it crudeness. Then there's the excessive 900 rounds per minute, which will translate into a lot of vibration of barrel, bun and the arms holding it. So I think it's pretty much okay to give both guns about the same accuracy (cone-of-fire), but the MP40 some more bullet drop and the PPSh a little less control. I think that is how it is in game.

I'd like to see less recoil (muzzle climb) for both guns in iron sights, but less accuracy and control when firing on the move, though.
 
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FatPartizan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 11, 2006
370
0
0
Not really. The drum mags were very unreliable. In fact each drum mag had to be hand fitted to each SMG because manufacturing tolerances were very rough and varying. If you took out a drum mag from one PPSH, there was no guarantee that it would function or even lock into another PPSH.

This is why the Russians switched to box magazines towards the end of war.

At least they were more reliable than Stens. And we all know about the Sten's reputation. :D

Only for the first releases .
 

Grobut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
3,623
1,310
0
Denmark
I disagree.

Known for it's accuracy? :confused: Out to what range?

I think people are completely forgetting that it uses a pistol round. :rolleyes:
This is one of the reasons it was low on recoil and made for close-in work.

I think you are trying to compare what you know about pistols to the PPSH, simply because they use the same kind of ammo.. thats just not how it works.

SMG's, and the PPSH in particular, has a much longer barrel than any pistol, something like a 80% increase if not more, that means they fire at a much higher velocity (longer barrel = more velocity), whilst pistols generally start to struggle past 25 meters, SMG's will generally be effective up to, or even past 100 meters.

Long barreled SMG's are certainly nothing like a shotgun, they are quite accurate within their effective range, not bullseye accurate like a rifle, but you should certainly be able to get a good grouping on a man sized target at 50 meters or more.


Also, the Russian SMG's in particular should have an accuracy advantage, the 7.62x25mm is a necked down pistol round that is well known for its long flat trajectory, coupled with low recoil, thats really the secret behind the PPSH, what made the gun what it was, it was very accurate, had low recoil, and a very high rate of fire, there's a damn good reason we often see photos of Germans carrying captured PPSH's, they where great weapons!



As for game balance (im adressing this broadly), its not a big problem if we got a realistic loadout, right now a realistic PPSH would be damaging to gameplay because its issued with a small truckload of drum mags.. we should only get one drum, and then a fistfull of 35 round bannanas, thats what the troops where given!

Without the unrealistic supply of ammo, the PPSH is nolonger a huge problem, and it does not need to be nerfed to oblivion and back.


But ofcourse the issue goes deeper than just that, the whole way recoil is coded for all RO weapons is a bad joke, you just dont notice it with the rifles as they are a one-shoot deal, the whole thing needs a revamp, not just the SMG's.